Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Xeno Goku Black]

They never implied that Broly had grown any stronger from one movie to the other. He couldn't even train properly.

He was said in the movie to maybe be stronger than Beerus.

The manga which then continued from this implied that there was nobody else around (except Goku) who was stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Evolved Vegeta who was weaker than Prime Moro.

So Broly would have to be weaker than that yet somehow thought to be stronger than Beerus. That's a huge misstep if that's the case seeing as Transformed Moro was dirt compared to Ultra Instinct Goku and that gap would be much smaller than the one between Broly and Beerus.

It's all a bit weird. It's farfetched to think that Broly is that far down in the manga. Weird that both Whis and Bulma don't recall him when thinking of Goku and Vegeta being the strongest when they know of him.

Then the editor believing that post Moro arc Goku still hasn't surpassed Broly when based on the manga he shouldn't even be as strong as Vegeta.

Is he stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku and Beerus or is he weaker than Ultra Instinct Sign Goku and Moro Prime? Two very conflicting ideas.

[Goku9001]

Koitsukai's take is the best one. The movie's script was in development a year before Broly debuted in theatres which meant there were many things that would not be accounted for. Iyoku explicitly distinguishes between the manga and Super Hero in which Super Hero is a direct continuation of Broly whereas the manga branches off of the Tournament of Power and features Goku's and Vegeta's own stories against new strong enemies. Those battles against these strong enemies require both Goku and Vegeta to be stronger than Broly. The Granolah arc explicitly establishes Goku and Vegeta to be the strongest in Universe 7 and Toyotaro implicitly corrected his editor by excluding Broly in his statement of who Goku and Vegeta are striving to reach.

It's very much possible that the intention is to have Broly higher up the chain later on in the story but it's very much clear that he's not at that level. Keep in mind that Super Hero explicitly takes place a few years or so after the events of Broly which was a deliberate choice made Toriyama so that there would be enough wiggle room for Toyotaro to add his own tidbits such as a story arc involving Broly to reconcile with what Super Hero conveys.

Given how absurdly powerful Broly had become with just some simple training with Paragus and a single battle with Goku/Vegeta, I don't see any issues with him being much weaker during the Moro and Granolah arcs and then managing to keep up with/surpass them afterward.

[Mr Baggins]

Going by the manga and Whis not knowing anyone stronger than Goku and Vegeta.

Sure, but the same manga also downplays Goku and Vegeta a bit by ranking them below Beerus. Broly was the only non-fused character compared to him.

I mentioned this here and in other threads, but I think the obvious reconciliation, and clearly the one Shueisha wants to use, is that Broly's wild power comes at a self-defeating cost and thus disqualifies him from being in his universe's top 3. If the guides are of any import, then like Kale, he'll decline over the course of a hypothetical fight with Goku as he loses control.

Inb4 Broly is the one the Oracle Fish was predicting the entire time, leading to the current status quo of DBS Super Hero.

Hey, I can dig it. It would be a very DB-like twist to completely throw the reader off like that.

[Goku9001]

I'd be down for Broly to be revealed to the Universe's strongest even though that doesn't really make much sense at this point.

[nineko]

I always assumed that the Oracle Fish was talking about Monaka.

Seriously though, yeah, it could be Broly.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Sure, but the same manga also downplays Goku and Vegeta a bit by ranking them below Beerus. Broly was the only non-fused character compared to him.

Well they were never expected to be above Beerus. Broly was said to be stronger than Beerus so Broly should be stronger than Goku and Vegeta. That fits with the editor saying Goku needs to surpass Broly.

It wouldn't fit with them, Granolah and Gas being the strongest.

It's just odd that a character so high up there and so recent is just not mentioned at all.

[Koitsukai]

Introducing Broly in the climax of the story could work, lol. Sure, all the turtle-paced developments and fights would be meaningless, but it could definitely link the manga and the movie.

They never implied that Broly had grown any stronger from one movie to the other. He couldn't even train properly.

He was said in the movie to maybe be stronger than Beerus.

Well, he should've gotten a gigantic zenkai after what went down on Earth, finally removing the "probably" from that original sentence.

If we go by the zenkais the guys got on Namek, he could be getting up to +30x stronger, without proper training, more than enough to catch up. I really don't see much issue with HOW can Broly regain the throne, with the saiya plot device on his side.

[Mr Baggins]

Well they were never expected to be above Beerus. Broly was said to be stronger than Beerus so Broly should be stronger than Goku and Vegeta. That fits with the editor saying Goku needs to surpass Broly.

Exactly. By "downplay", I just mean that a lot of the audience expected them to surpass Beerus at that point with Goku now having access to silver UI; the manga never truly implies such, but it's what people thought at the time. But then it's revealed that they still haven't, and Broly is the only one that was suggested to. Uchida thinks they haven't surpassed Broly either, and his opinion holds more weight than any reader's — he's actively involved in the story's development.

So if the title of "universe's best" already excludes certain characters, I think people are taking Whis's words a tad too literally. Either Broly's lack of self-control renders him incapable of using his full power at will, effectively excluding him from the race (as the guides would imply) or there's something the manga isn't telling us. It's already odd that Broly hardly gets mentioned outside of that one bonus chapter.

The worst case scenario is that Toyotaro just views the entire hierarchy differently than his own editor, all of Sheuisha, and even Toriyama. I would hope not, though; this arc is already a mess as it is.

[Thani]

Imagine if Toyo was ignoring Uchida's input because it was actually a small spoiler of the Granolah arc and he was intentionally trying to make readers believe that Broly was old news, just so the Broly review would catch us all by surprise.

At this point I'm just messing around with baseless theories, but I would seriously scream if it happened to be the case.

[Xeno Goku Black]

After the movies disappointing inclusion of him, the manga could do with bringing him in.

[Koitsukai]

Unless Toriyama has another movie planned for Broly(probably called DBS Broly Broly or DBS Super Broly), the manga should be now free to include him in its stories, like any other character.

So, while I doubt they'll shit on the last 10 chapters, whatever comes next, hopefully will have Broly, without the SH noose around Toyo's pen.

[ssj3kakarot]

Has there been any specific information as to when this movie takes place? Most people are saying Gohan/Piccolo are on the same level of Goku and Vegeta, but is right after the Broly fight? Or after Moro and Granny?

Seems to me it’s after Broly only. Goku is talking to Vegeta about meditation and they only bring up Broly and Jiren ( referencing strong guys) but don’t mention Moro, Uub, Granola, Gas, etc.

If it does take place after the current granola manga, what a mess.

It could still take place after Broly, which wouldn’t negate all the actual work and effort Goku and Vegeta have gone through.

So again, anyone have any confirmation when this took place?

[Xeno Goku Black]

The movie takes place in Age 783 most likely with the possibility of Age 782.

The manga by all rights is in in Age 781.

[ssj3kakarot]

The movie takes place in Age 783 most likely with the possibility of Age 782.

The manga by all rights is in in Age 781.

Meaning what exactly?

What age does ToP take place compared to Granohla?

[Xeno Goku Black]

Meaning what exactly?

What age does ToP take place compared to Granohla?

Well not all this is official but..

Age 774 - Majin Buu
Age 778 - Beerus
Age 779 - Golden Frieza, Hit and Goku Black
Age 780 - Jiren and Broly
Age 781 - Moro and Gas
Age 782 or 783 - Cell Max
Age 784 - Uub

From what I know, after the Tournament of Power, some time passed until Broly, at least enough for Bra to have a head full of hair. Then some time passed again until the start of the Moro arc. Then there was a two month time skip by the end of that arc.

The start of the Granolah arc was about 3 months after Moro. Then about another month passed since to where they are currently.

So at the very least half a year between now and the Tournament of Power. Probably less than a year though.

[Goku9001]

Has there been any specific information as to when this movie takes place? Most people are saying Gohan/Piccolo are on the same level of Goku and Vegeta, but is right after the Broly fight? Or after Moro and Granny?

Seems to me it’s after Broly only. Goku is talking to Vegeta about meditation and they only bring up Broly and Jiren ( referencing strong guys) but don’t mention Moro, Uub, Granola, Gas, etc.

If it does take place after the current granola manga, what a mess.

It could still take place after Broly, which wouldn’t negate all the actual work and effort Goku and Vegeta have gone through.

So again, anyone have any confirmation when this took place?

Iyoku who is an executive producer of the DragonBall department of Shueisha does clarify that Super Hero was written as a direct continuation of Broly because they are writing it with a target audience in mind on top of the fact that the script was in development before Broly released. Therefore, you are definitely right about your assumption here but I would also assume that Toyotaro will find some way to connect the manga to Super Hero in his own way since the events of Super Hero are canon to the story of Dragon Ball as a whole.

As it stands now, Super Hero treats the manga as a separate story which is why you have certain things that seem out-of-whack such as Goku commenting on Vegeta's lack of physical training despite them undergoing some form of physical training at the beginning of the Moro arc and Goku/Vegeta training under Whis and following the same path even though Goku and Vegeta acknowledged that their paths would diverge in the Moro and Granolah arcs. Expect the events of Super Hero to be connected to the manga eventually.

I'm not too familiar with the chronological timeline but seems like Xeno Goku Black has you covered there.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Imagine if Toyo was ignoring Uchida's input because it was actually a small spoiler of the Granolah arc and he was intentionally trying to make readers believe that Broly was old news, just so the Broly review would catch us all by surprise.

At this point I'm just messing around with baseless theories, but I would seriously scream if it happened to be the case.

Coming back to this because I'm re-reading Chapter 82 and the scene where Goku leaves Gas with Whis and flies off then has the Oracle Fish chime in asking who he was which leaves Whis surprised.

I feel like most people would have forgot or overlooked that entirely.

It almost implies that Has isn't the strongest in the universe that the Oracle Fish had the prophecy over.

[Berserker1921]

If we say that Superhero does officially take place after Granolah arc.

How much stronger do you think Gohan and Cell are compared to

Ui Goku?
Ue Vegeta?
Broly?
Gas?
Granolah?

On a scale of 1-10, let’s say Gohan is a 10 and Cell was a 9. Where do you these fit on this scale?

[ssj3kakarot]

If we say that Superhero does officially take place after Granolah arc.

How much stronger do you think Gohan and Cell are compared to

Ui Goku?
Ue Vegeta?
Broly?
Gas?
Granolah?

On a scale of 1-10, let’s say Gohan is a 10 and Cell was a 9. Where do you these fit on this scale?

If this takes place after Granolah arc, doesn't that imply that Gohan is the strongest character in their Universe? Gas was granted title of the strongest via the Dragon balls, and if Gohan leaps frog, then doesn't that mean he is top dog??

[Xeogran]

It almost implies that Gas isn't the strongest in the universe that the Oracle Fish had the prophecy over.

Which is weird. Gas was taking on UI and UE at once and pretty much would win without their endless plot shield. Broly isn't a GoD and should be just likewise surpassed by Granolah's and Gas' wishes.