Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, I have to say, there isn’t much backing up that two base theory, doesn’t seem to have been any hints about it whatsoever from Toriyama, and only relies on artistic liberties taken by studio animators.
And nowhere it was implied that SS doesn’t amplify just the base power and that it is actually on top of an arbitrary KK boost. If it were on top of KKx20, then that would make more sense, but still nothing points in that direction at all
Specially, if in practice it means SS is actually a 50x boost, because you can’t have two base forms, Goku is 3M or 15M. There's no evidence to prove there's like a mid-station between base and SS, besides that mid-stage isn't fit for fighting, only to go SS, so his base must remain 3M.

If we go with the 10x boost, then Freeza must still be a force to be reckoned until at least one of the androids is absorbed by Cell, even taking into account power inflation. With this in mind, bringing back Freeza and his amazing gains from training for a while don't seem that insane.

It is odd to me when artistic liberties from the studio(Tori does not write the fights or how transformations are depicted, not in the Broly movie at least) are taken at face value, not too long ago I read somebody say that Goku, in the Broly movie, unlocked a SSB power beyond UI -because his hair went silver for a nanosecond-, ranking Goku's form like this: SSG < UI < SSB.

[FeatsofPower]

Trunks did it against Freeza.

Trunks went straight to Super Saiyan against Freeza. Unless you're referring to the brief second or two in the anime's transformation sequence where his hair was spiked up but hadn't shifted to yellow (and I think I've made myself clear that I don't really consider creative artistic liberties the animators take to be evidence of authorial intent), I have no idea what you're talking about.

Yes, it's anime filler. He has that yellow lining, just like Vegeta does against Broly. That could be Super Saiyan Essence.

[FeatsofPower]

Yeah, I have to say, there isn’t much backing up that two base theory, doesn’t seem to have been any hints about it whatsoever from Toriyama, and only relies on artistic liberties taken by studio animators.
And nowhere it was implied that SS doesn’t amplify just the base power and that it is actually on top of an arbitrary KK boost. If it were on top of KKx20, then that would make more sense, but still nothing points in that direction at all
Specially, if in practice it means SS is actually a 50x boost, because you can’t have two base forms, Goku is 3M or 15M. There's no evidence to prove there's like a mid-station between base and SS, besides that mid-stage isn't fit for fighting, only to go SS, so his base must remain 3M.

If we go with the 10x boost, then Freeza must still be a force to be reckoned until at least one of the androids is absorbed by Cell, even taking into account power inflation. With this in mind, bringing back Freeza and his amazing gains from training for a while don't seem that insane.

It is odd to me when artistic liberties from the studio(Tori does not write the fights or how transformations are depicted, not in the Broly movie at least) are taken at face value, not too long ago I read somebody say that Goku, in the Broly movie, unlocked a SSB power beyond UI -because his hair went silver for a nanosecond-, ranking Goku's form like this: SSG < UI < SSB.

The argument is that Base can tap into Super Saiyan, so if using KK, that KK wouldn't be able to tap into that Base that tapped into SSJ, since SSJ and KK do not mix.

[FeatsofPower]

Piccolo w/o Weights 155
Android 17 150
Android 18 140
Piccolo W/Weights 135
Imperfect Cell 120
SSJ Vegeta 100
SSJ Goku (Healthy) 95
SSJ Trunks 90
Piccolo 77.5
Android 20 (Post Piccolo) 65
Android 20 (Post Vegeta's Blast) 57.25
Android 19 (Post Base Goku) 55
Android 19 (Post KHH) 52.5
SSJ Goku (Sicker) 47.5
Android 20 (Post Yamcha) 40.5
Android 20 37.5
Android 19 35
Vegeta 10
Goku 9.5
Trunks 9
Piccolo 7.75
Gohan 7
Kuririn 5
Tien 4.5
Yamcha 3
Goku (Sickest) 2.5

[manwolf]

I think that people are underestimate Yamcha. We know that Tien could damage Semiperfect Cell and Piccolo have a power like a supersaiyan so these two characters have a power in the 100 millions range.

We know that Krillin have a little less that 100 hundred when he died in Namek, so is not impossible to think that he have a few millions in Android Saga,more if he knew some technique like kaioken.

Yamcha died with 1480, after he train his power level must to increase to a little less that 50 thousand. Based on that at minimum Yamcha have 500 hundred but maybe he have a million, with kaioken he could go to a few millions not a lot but between 2 and 5.

If Doctor Gero have less that 100 millions 2 or three millions seems like a good source of power.

[ZombieVito]

I think that people are underestimate Yamcha. We know that Tien could damage Semiperfect Cell and Piccolo have a power like a supersaiyan so these two characters have a power in the 100 millions range.

We know that Krillin have a little less that 100 hundred when he died in Namek, so is not impossible to think that he have a few millions in Android Saga,more if he knew some technique like kaioken.

Yamcha died with 1480, after he train his power level must to increase to a little less that 50 thousand. Based on that at minimum Yamcha have 500 hundred but maybe he have a million, with kaioken he could go to a few millions not a lot but between 2 and 5.

If Doctor Gero have less that 100 millions 2 or three millions seems like a good source of power.

No human has reached 100 million by the Tournament of Power. Krillin was completely helpless in a straight confrontation against base Gohan during their sparring match before the tournament. This Gohan is confirmed to be exactly as strong as his Boo arc self so his base is still weaker or around Namek Freeza.

[manwolf]

I think that people are underestimate Yamcha. We know that Tien could damage Semiperfect Cell and Piccolo have a power like a supersaiyan so these two characters have a power in the 100 millions range.

We know that Krillin have a little less that 100 hundred when he died in Namek, so is not impossible to think that he have a few millions in Android Saga,more if he knew some technique like kaioken.

Yamcha died with 1480, after he train his power level must to increase to a little less that 50 thousand. Based on that at minimum Yamcha have 500 hundred but maybe he have a million, with kaioken he could go to a few millions not a lot but between 2 and 5.

If Doctor Gero have less that 100 millions 2 or three millions seems like a good source of power.

No human has reached 100 million by the Tournament of Power. Krillin was completely helpless in a straight confrontation against base Gohan during their sparring match before the tournament. This Gohan is confirmed to be exactly as strong as his Boo arc self so his base is still weaker or around Namek Freeza.

We have two versions of the Tournament of power with difference but i an not speaking of these saga.

I am only saying that humans are in a millions range based on Tien being capable of damaging cell and Yamcha still being a useful source of energy.

Also Krillin train with 18 and in the manga there aren't a strong difference between Krillin and 18 so maybe Krillin have 100 millions with some kind of Technic.

[FeatsofPower]

Yamcha in the Androids Saga should be very, very strong. He should probably be around Kkx20 Goku or so.

Remember, the Androids are very strong, stronger than Freeza, stronger than Trunks and Yardrat Goku, and yet, Yamcha and the other humans are still good sources of power.

The Android Saga proves the humans are far stronger than anticipated.

Gohan + Kuririn + Tien equals or surpasses Piccolo's suppressed power, stated indirectly by Gero.

For them to be affecting Super Saiyan levels of power, they need to be tremendously strong.

[DanielSSJ]

Is there any direct evidence that Androids #19 and #20 are actuality stronger than Freeza and the pre-time skip Super Saiyans? They're whole point in the narrative is to lull the gang into a false sense of security before the real Androids show up and iirc, Vegeta or Piccolo say they don't seem as strong as they were lead to believe.

[FeatsofPower]

Is there any direct evidence that Androids #19 and #20 are actuality stronger than Freeza and the pre-time skip Super Saiyans? They're whole point in the narrative is to lull the gang into a false sense of security before the real Androids show up and iirc, Vegeta or Piccolo say they don't seem as strong as they were lead to believe.

Yeah, I believe the Dragon books state all Androids surpass Freeza.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yep. I don’t think they’re above Trunks and Goku though, at least not when they first appeared.

Spoiler:

[Mireya]

Where's it mentioned they surpassed Freeza there?

[DanielSSJ]

Yeah, I leafed through my Dragon Books, and I'm not seeing anything that directly says No.19 and No.20 are specifically stronger than Freeza or the pre-Timeskip Super Saiyans. I think I'm gonna stick with my old assumption that they didn't start encroaching on that territory until after they started sucking up people's energy.

[Koitsukai]

Based on anime filler, by the end of Namek, Tenshinhan is 80,000 (Split in half and beat Burta and Jeese, and then overpowered the Comet thingy) and Yamcha 45,000 (beat Recoome). They’ve gotten like 20x stronger training with Kaio sama.

For them to reach the 1M mark, they would need to get over 10x stronger, training on their own. That is having the same gains but without Kaio sama or a sparring partner(well, Chaozu…), and without the saiyan genetics that usually help with crazy gains.

We’ve seen in fillers that Yamcha tried and failed to train in the gravity chamber, so at best, being extremely lenient with his filler gains he can be 500K, +10x boost, more than what Goku got in those 3 years training with Piccolo and Gohan.
Tenshinhan trained with Chaozu, but considering that after seeing Yamcha get fisted, he didn’t back down, he should be stronger than him.

I can see Tenshinhan being above 1M, but not Yamcha, who was mistaken with Goku by the androids, who never thought Goku would get much stronger than he was in the Saiyan arc. So, Yamcha being above the million would mean Goku wasn’t close to his limits back in the saiyan arc as the androids foresaw.

The humans being 30 or 60 M is impossible, their potential would be greater than Gohan's. Not even Goku was that strong in his base form. Maybe that's were I would put A-19 and 20, but not the humans.

[manwolf]

Based on anime filler, by the end of Namek, Tenshinhan is 80,000 (Split in half and beat Burta and Jeese, and then overpowered the Comet thingy) and Yamcha 45,000 (beat Recoome). They’ve gotten like 20x stronger training with Kaio sama.

For them to reach the 1M mark, they would need to get over 10x stronger, training on their own. That is having the same gains but without Kaio sama or a sparring partner(well, Chaozu…), and without the saiyan genetics that usually help with crazy gains.

We’ve seen in fillers that Yamcha tried and failed to train in the gravity chamber, so at best, being extremely lenient with his filler gains he can be 500K, +10x boost, more than what Goku got in those 3 years training with Piccolo and Gohan.
Tenshinhan trained with Chaozu, but considering that after seeing Yamcha get fisted, he didn’t back down, he should be stronger than him.

I can see Tenshinhan being above 1M, but not Yamcha, who was mistaken with Goku by the androids, who never thought Goku would get much stronger than he was in the Saiyan arc. So, Yamcha being above the million would mean Goku wasn’t close to his limits back in the saiyan arc as the androids foresaw.

The humans being 30 or 60 M is impossible, their potential would be greater than Gohan's. Not even Goku was that strong in his base form. Maybe that's were I would put A-19 and 20, but not the humans.

I not see Humans in Android saga at 60 millions at base. But Tien and Yamcha train with Kaio and Gohan could fight with Gero.

Tien actually damage Semiperfect Cell so a 80 million attack is not far fetched. Goku with kaioken have 60 millions is not difficult for Tien to have 40 or 50 millions with kaioken.

Ymacha is weaker, 500k with a 10 x kaioken are a good approximation, Gero could absorb 5 millions a substantial amount but no very much .

[FeatsofPower]

Yeah, the humans should be right around 50 million or so by the Androids Saga. Remember, they have numerical feats proving they are substantially powerful, you just need to do the math to make it happen.

Gohan, Kuririn, Tien, and Yamcha are ridiculously powerful in the Androids Saga, it seems to have been a big secret that only now are we unveiling. Many people have made the argument in the past, but only now do we have the numerical basis for it.

[Koitsukai]

Based on anime filler, by the end of Namek, Tenshinhan is 80,000 (Split in half and beat Burta and Jeese, and then overpowered the Comet thingy) and Yamcha 45,000 (beat Recoome). They’ve gotten like 20x stronger training with Kaio sama.

For them to reach the 1M mark, they would need to get over 10x stronger, training on their own. That is having the same gains but without Kaio sama or a sparring partner(well, Chaozu…), and without the saiyan genetics that usually help with crazy gains.

We’ve seen in fillers that Yamcha tried and failed to train in the gravity chamber, so at best, being extremely lenient with his filler gains he can be 500K, +10x boost, more than what Goku got in those 3 years training with Piccolo and Gohan.
Tenshinhan trained with Chaozu, but considering that after seeing Yamcha get fisted, he didn’t back down, he should be stronger than him.

I can see Tenshinhan being above 1M, but not Yamcha, who was mistaken with Goku by the androids, who never thought Goku would get much stronger than he was in the Saiyan arc. So, Yamcha being above the million would mean Goku wasn’t close to his limits back in the saiyan arc as the androids foresaw.

The humans being 30 or 60 M is impossible, their potential would be greater than Gohan's. Not even Goku was that strong in his base form. Maybe that's were I would put A-19 and 20, but not the humans.

I not see Humans in Android saga at 60 millions at base. But Tien and Yamcha train with Kaio and Gohan could fight with Gero.

Tien actually damage Semiperfect Cell so a 80 million attack is not far fetched. Goku with kaioken have 60 millions is not difficult for Tien to have 40 or 50 millions with kaioken.

Ymacha is weaker, 500k with a 10 x kaioken are a good approximation, Gero could absorb 5 millions a substantial amount but no very much .

Tenshinhan didn't actually hurt Cell, only kept him occupied, Cell was unscathered, it only cost Cell time. His Shin Kiko Ho is that big of a deal.

The humans using KK is a good guy to have them that high in the millions without them actually being that strong, the thing is there was never a hint of them learning or using kaioken, not even in DBS filler prior to the ToP when they needed them to be stronger that was even considered.
The only thing that comes close to that is Ten's Shin Kiko Ho, that must've been KK-powered to be able to at least scratch Cell's surface when he was not even close to much weaker characters.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Where's it mentioned they surpassed Freeza there?

Yeah, I leafed through my Dragon Books, and I'm not seeing anything that directly says No.19 and No.20 are specifically stronger than Freeza or the pre-Timeskip Super Saiyans. I think I'm gonna stick with my old assumption that they didn't start encroaching on that territory until after they started sucking up people's energy.

The box over 16 and next to 18. “Even stronger foes, the Artificial Humans, appear[…]”

Based on anime filler, by the end of Namek, Tenshinhan is 80,000 (Split in half and beat Burta and Jeese, and then overpowered the Comet thingy) and Yamcha 45,000 (beat Recoome). They’ve gotten like 20x stronger training with Kaio sama.

For them to reach the 1M mark, they would need to get over 10x stronger, training on their own. That is having the same gains but without Kaio sama or a sparring partner(well, Chaozu…), and without the saiyan genetics that usually help with crazy gains.

We’ve seen in fillers that Yamcha tried and failed to train in the gravity chamber, so at best, being extremely lenient with his filler gains he can be 500K, +10x boost, more than what Goku got in those 3 years training with Piccolo and Gohan.
Tenshinhan trained with Chaozu, but considering that after seeing Yamcha get fisted, he didn’t back down, he should be stronger than him.

I can see Tenshinhan being above 1M, but not Yamcha, who was mistaken with Goku by the androids, who never thought Goku would get much stronger than he was in the Saiyan arc. So, Yamcha being above the million would mean Goku wasn’t close to his limits back in the saiyan arc as the androids foresaw.

The humans being 30 or 60 M is impossible, their potential would be greater than Gohan's. Not even Goku was that strong in his base form. Maybe that's were I would put A-19 and 20, but not the humans.

What I find really weird is that Gero was never really impressed by Goku himself until he went Super Saiyan, not even when he got angry and punched him in the face. It’s like Goku reaching the millions was part of his estimations… though not going far beyond that of course.

[Noah]

This Gohan is confirmed to be exactly as strong as his Boo arc self so his base is still weaker or around Namek Freeza.

Huh, no? This Gohan fought evenly with SSJB Goku and even considering Goku was holding off that's still too much power beyond a Boo-tier character, there's no way he could take on Dyspo if he has only that same level of power.

[ZombieVito]

Huh, no? This Gohan fought evenly with SSJB Goku and even considering Goku was holding off that's still too much power beyond a Boo-tier character, there's no way he could take on Dyspo if he has only that same level of power.

I was talking about Gohan when he fought Lavender and Krillin. He grew stronger after training with Piccolo between episodes 88 and 90 and again while fighting Goku in episode 90. That Gohan is the one that rivaled SSB Goku.