Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

Goku, in the introducting chapter, implied it was Sign, but improved by his emotions. The art also supports this, and by the end of 85, his aura is gone but his hair looks like Sign. Nothing odd here yet, it's Sign.
But in 86, there are no highlights on his hair anymore, it's just black, like in base but with gray eyes now.

So, I'm not sure if this new form is meant to be Sign but better, or if True MnG is actually what Whis was talking about, rocking UI in base, but for real this time.
Going by the different art in the chapters, Toyo doesn't seem to be absolutely certain either.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think it’s a new form evolved out of Sign. MUI was suppressing his emotions too much, so he went back to Sign and pushed it beyond limits to reach efficiency level above that of MUI.

[ankokudaishogun]

I'm going to guess UI to be used at its fullest must be "tailored" to each user.
Goku was basically forcing it before, that's why it was so energy-intensive and why he had such a hard time to keep it on.

Now he found HIS "true" UI style, and can improve it starting from the "sign" version.


Ultra Ego is probably the same: Beerus focused only on "Destruction", but that specific focus is probably not fitting Vegeta.
I would bet 0.01eurocent that Toppo's "True UE" would probably be him fixating on Justice instead of forsaking it like in the anime ToP.
(which would also fit Jiren's dissing of Toppo's actions)

[Goku9001]

He's at least branching out to True Ultra Instinct from Omen given that the website explicitly states that he returned to his "black-haired form" and Gas questioning Goku on what form he's using seems to suggest that Goku was using a form that was familiar to him which explains why Goku knew that this form was the best one. At least that's my interpretation. But it definitely is classified as a new transformation because the nature of it is completely different and it makes it easier to understand why Goku's power increased despite using Omen. It's not just Omen, it's a true evolution of Ultra Instinct.

I definitely think that is the lesson Vegeta is trying to learn as well given that he chastises Goku for not finding his own "Ultra Instinct" yet. That seems to imply that Vegeta was in the process of understanding his own "Ultra Ego" and it definitely coincides with Vegeta coming to the realization that "Destruction" in the way that Beerus described is not suited for him. He's a mortal rather than a god so he can't just throw away everything that's shaped his entire life. I think the anime can tackle this extremely well since Toppo also had to throw away everything he had known in pursuit of "Destruction". The conflict that Vegeta had with Toppo can prove as a stepping stone for Vegeta to realize that "Destruction" isn't for him as it wasn't for Toppo.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Rereading the chapter I dare to say there’s no correlation to Sign whatsoever. When Goku transforms Gas is instantly reminded of Bardock’s powered up state. I’m not sure if this look is intentional on Goku’s part, but it’s definitely Toyotaro’s intention.

I also noticed that Gas suggests Goku and Vegeta aren’t different from before, and Vegeta flat out says as much about Goku. Vegeta powers up from damage while Goku gets True UI… but what about Granolah? Did he just use some super charged techhnique? His sparing Gas sounds like he’s not a threat anymore. Oracle Fish not recognizing Gas seems to imply Granolah is the strongest though.

[Koitsukai]

How close do you guys have the Granny arc big hitters? what numbers would you give Granny, Gas, Old Gas, UI, UE and True UI?

Gas was overpowering UI(that was losing stamina and accuracy, I guess) and UE at the same time, the gap between them shouldn't be small for that to happen. Meaning the jump from the not-great silver UI to True UI should be quite big.

[Goku9001]

Rereading the chapter I dare to say there’s no correlation to Sign whatsoever. When Goku transforms Gas is instantly reminded of Bardock’s powered up state. I’m not sure if this look is intentional on Goku’s part, but it’s definitely Toyotaro’s intention.

I also noticed that Gas suggests Goku and Vegeta aren’t different from before, and Vegeta flat out says as much about Goku. Vegeta powers up from damage while Goku gets True UI… but what about Granolah? Did he just use some super charged techhnique? His sparing Gas sounds like he’s not a threat anymore. Oracle Fish not recognizing Gas seems to imply Granolah is the strongest though.

That's not what Toyotaro was conveying. Gas is immediately reminded of Bardock when Goku says that his heart is no longer calm. That's a reference to what Gas says against Goku during their first fight when he claims Goku lacks the fierceness Bardock did. It's very clear what the comparison here is referring to and the official website clarifying that Goku returned to his "black-haired form" makes it clear that he was using Omen.

How close do you guys have the Granny arc big hitters? what numbers would you give Granny, Gas, Old Gas, UI, UE and True UI?

Gas was overpowering UI(that was losing stamina and accuracy, I guess) and UE at the same time, the gap between them shouldn't be small for that to happen. Meaning the jump from the not-great silver UI to True UI should be quite big.

I don't know. Is it agreed upon that Gas was initially over twice as strong as Goku and Vegeta were based on how he was able to push back Vegeta and Goku with Vegeta's attack?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

That's not what Toyotaro was conveying. Gas is immediately reminded of Bardock when Goku says that his heart is no longer calm. That's a reference to what Gas says against Goku during their first fight when he claims Goku lacks the fierceness Bardock did. It's very clear what the comparison here is referring to and the official website clarifying that Goku returned to his "black-haired form" makes it clear that he was using Omen.

Gas actually remembers Bardock because of the look on Goku’s face.

Spoiler:

The website description doesn’t say Goku has “returned” but that he transformed into his black haired form (which is just a description of how it looks like) and actually suggests it’s a whole new form.

However, this is a different form of Ultra Instinct in which Goku retains his emotions: in other words, Goku has finally awoken his true Ultra Instinct!

Sign is a incomplete version of MUI that followed the same principles. This is something different altogether.

How close do you guys have the Granny arc big hitters? what numbers would you give Granny, Gas, Old Gas, UI, UE and True UI?

Gas was overpowering UI(that was losing stamina and accuracy, I guess) and UE at the same time, the gap between them shouldn't be small for that to happen. Meaning the jump from the not-great silver UI to True UI should be quite big.

I’m not even sure how they compare to each other anymore. Most of the time it looked like Gas > Granola > Vegeta > Goku, but when they got back for round 2 the whole scale got messed up.

Both Vegeta and Goku surpassed Adult Gas, but Old Gas required everyone working together. He seems to be the strongest, but the Oracle Fish has already made clear he ain’t. Granola letting Gas live makes it sound like the Heeters can’t do shit to him, but where would he get all that power from? If Granny’s just being naive then the strongest has to be Goku with that avatar. Or maybe Elec got something for them?

[Berserker1921]

That's not what Toyotaro was conveying. Gas is immediately reminded of Bardock when Goku says that his heart is no longer calm. That's a reference to what Gas says against Goku during their first fight when he claims Goku lacks the fierceness Bardock did. It's very clear what the comparison here is referring to and the official website clarifying that Goku returned to his "black-haired form" makes it clear that he was using Omen.

Gas actually remembers Bardock because of the look on Goku’s face.

Spoiler:

The website description doesn’t say Goku has “returned” but that he transformed into his black haired form (which is just a description of how it looks like) and actually suggests it’s a whole new form.

However, this is a different form of Ultra Instinct in which Goku retains his emotions: in other words, Goku has finally awoken his true Ultra Instinct!

Sign is a incomplete version of MUI that followed the same principles. This is something different altogether.

How close do you guys have the Granny arc big hitters? what numbers would you give Granny, Gas, Old Gas, UI, UE and True UI?

Gas was overpowering UI(that was losing stamina and accuracy, I guess) and UE at the same time, the gap between them shouldn't be small for that to happen. Meaning the jump from the not-great silver UI to True UI should be quite big.

I’m not even sure how they compare to each other anymore. Most of the time it looked like Gas > Granola > Vegeta > Goku, but when they got back for round 2 the whole scale got messed up.

Both Vegeta and Goku surpassed Adult Gas, but Old Gas required everyone working together. He seems to be the strongest, but the Oracle Fish has already made clear he ain’t. Granola letting Gas live makes it sound like the Heeters can’t do shit to him, but where would he get all that power from? If Granny’s just being naive then the strongest has to be Goku with that avatar. Or maybe Elec got something for them?

I suspect the universe strongest will be revealed to be Broly or Uub. If it leads to Broly, it will explain Super Hero’s explanation for Broly being the strongest.

I doubt anyone really surpassed old gas. It was just that he was dying. So he lost a lot of his invulnerability. That’s why he was done in. He was slowly falling apart. I think he was stronger than all the characters.

[ssj3kakarot]

That's not what Toyotaro was conveying. Gas is immediately reminded of Bardock when Goku says that his heart is no longer calm. That's a reference to what Gas says against Goku during their first fight when he claims Goku lacks the fierceness Bardock did. It's very clear what the comparison here is referring to and the official website clarifying that Goku returned to his "black-haired form" makes it clear that he was using Omen.

Gas actually remembers Bardock because of the look on Goku’s face.

Spoiler:

The website description doesn’t say Goku has “returned” but that he transformed into his black haired form (which is just a description of how it looks like) and actually suggests it’s a whole new form.

However, this is a different form of Ultra Instinct in which Goku retains his emotions: in other words, Goku has finally awoken his true Ultra Instinct!

Sign is a incomplete version of MUI that followed the same principles. This is something different altogether.

How close do you guys have the Granny arc big hitters? what numbers would you give Granny, Gas, Old Gas, UI, UE and True UI?

Gas was overpowering UI(that was losing stamina and accuracy, I guess) and UE at the same time, the gap between them shouldn't be small for that to happen. Meaning the jump from the not-great silver UI to True UI should be quite big.

I’m not even sure how they compare to each other anymore. Most of the time it looked like Gas > Granola > Vegeta > Goku, but when they got back for round 2 the whole scale got messed up.

Both Vegeta and Goku surpassed Adult Gas, but Old Gas required everyone working together. He seems to be the strongest, but the Oracle Fish has already made clear he ain’t. Granola letting Gas live makes it sound like the Heeters can’t do shit to him, but where would he get all that power from? If Granny’s just being naive then the strongest has to be Goku with that avatar. Or maybe Elec got something for them?

I suspect the universe strongest will be revealed to be Broly or Uub. If it leads to Broly, it will explain Super Hero’s explanation for Broly being the strongest.

I doubt anyone really surpassed old gas. It was just that he was dying. So he lost a lot of his invulnerability. That’s why he was done in. He was slowly falling apart. I think he was stronger than all the characters.

You think they are gonna have Uub be the strongest? I know the manga really hyped him up with the amount of Godly energy donated during Moro.

If end of Z Uub and end of Z Goku are supposed to be the same, then an untrained Uub going up against "current" Goku is even more impressive. Not sure if they are gonna change end of Z or not.

[Berserker1921]

Gas actually remembers Bardock because of the look on Goku’s face.

Spoiler:

The website description doesn’t say Goku has “returned” but that he transformed into his black haired form (which is just a description of how it looks like) and actually suggests it’s a whole new form.

However, this is a different form of Ultra Instinct in which Goku retains his emotions: in other words, Goku has finally awoken his true Ultra Instinct!

Sign is a incomplete version of MUI that followed the same principles. This is something different altogether.



I’m not even sure how they compare to each other anymore. Most of the time it looked like Gas > Granola > Vegeta > Goku, but when they got back for round 2 the whole scale got messed up.

Both Vegeta and Goku surpassed Adult Gas, but Old Gas required everyone working together. He seems to be the strongest, but the Oracle Fish has already made clear he ain’t. Granola letting Gas live makes it sound like the Heeters can’t do shit to him, but where would he get all that power from? If Granny’s just being naive then the strongest has to be Goku with that avatar. Or maybe Elec got something for them?

I suspect the universe strongest will be revealed to be Broly or Uub. If it leads to Broly, it will explain Super Hero’s explanation for Broly being the strongest.

I doubt anyone really surpassed old gas. It was just that he was dying. So he lost a lot of his invulnerability. That’s why he was done in. He was slowly falling apart. I think he was stronger than all the characters.

You think they are gonna have Uub be the strongest? I know the manga really hyped him up with the amount of Godly energy donated during Moro.

If end of Z Uub and end of Z Goku are supposed to be the same, then an untrained Uub going up against "current" Goku is even more impressive. Not sure if they are gonna change end of Z or not.

Uub might be the strongest in the universe. I suppose they might end with the fish saying “none of these guys are who I saw. The person I saw has a mohawk.” Or something like that. It would really show the potential of Uub.

And Uub could have the power but none of the control. Which leads to the whole thing about controlling your power and etc.

But it could also show Broly. I mean in the interview before the arc came out. The editor may have spoiled the ending when he said Broly was the strongest. Revealing the ending accidentally.

[Goku9001]

The website description doesn’t say Goku has “returned” but that he transformed into his black haired form (which is just a description of how it looks like) and actually suggests it’s a whole new form.

However, this is a different form of Ultra Instinct in which Goku retains his emotions: in other words, Goku has finally awoken his true Ultra Instinct!

Sign is a incomplete version of MUI that followed the same principles. This is something different altogether.

The reference to his Black-haired form is one that we already know. The explanation that follows "However" is meant to place a distinction upon something we already knew. He transformed into his "Black-haired form" leaves the assumption that it's the same as Omen and anything that follows "However" is meant to clarify that there is a difference despite the form appearing similar.

In regards to Gas, I think it's clear what Gas is seeing when he reminisces Bardock. Gas earlier commented on Blue Goku lacking the fierceness in his eyes that Bardock had so Gas reminiscing Bardock upon the look in Goku's eyes (hence why Gas yells "That look!") signifies that Goku's heart is no longer calm. That he's a fierce warrior like his father is. That's the only distinction the source material makes that coincides with what the website tells us. Unless you want to take this literally and assume that Bardock was also using True Ultra Instinct, I think this is a flimsy argument.

As for who the Oracle Fish saw? I don't think it's Broly or Uub unless it's referring to innate power since Whis already confirmed that Goku and Vegeta had left everybody else in the universe in the dust.

[ssj3kakarot]

The website description doesn’t say Goku has “returned” but that he transformed into his black haired form (which is just a description of how it looks like) and actually suggests it’s a whole new form.

However, this is a different form of Ultra Instinct in which Goku retains his emotions: in other words, Goku has finally awoken his true Ultra Instinct!

Sign is a incomplete version of MUI that followed the same principles. This is something different altogether.

The reference to his Black-haired form is one that we already know. The explanation that follows "However" is meant to place a distinction upon something we already knew. He transformed into his "Black-haired form" leaves the assumption that it's the same as Omen and anything that follows "However" is meant to clarify that there is a difference despite the form appearing similar.

In regards to Gas, I think it's clear what Gas is seeing when he reminisces Bardock. Gas earlier commented on Blue Goku lacking the fierceness in his eyes that Bardock had so Gas reminiscing Bardock upon the look in Goku's eyes (hence why Gas yells "That look!") signifies that Goku's heart is no longer calm. That he's a fierce warrior like his father is. That's the only distinction the source material makes that coincides with what the website tells us. Unless you want to take this literally and assume that Bardock was also using True Ultra Instinct, I think this is a flimsy argument.

As for who the Oracle Fish saw? I don't think it's Broly or Uub unless it's referring to innate power since Whis already confirmed that Goku and Vegeta had left everybody else in the universe in the dust.

The Oracle Fish was clearly referring to Granolah.

Chpt 68:

Granny says "i'll have to grow stronger than anyone.
Legit next panel is Oracle Fish " Strongest Warrior in the Universe will soon rise up"

Chpt 70:
Goku asks Oracle fish "The Universes Greatest warrior has gotta be me, right, oracle fish?
All the while Whis is watching Granolah fly through space, the writers implying that its Granny, and we dont have to assume since we just saw him granted the title from the Dragon.

Chpt 82:
Oracle fish doesn't know who Gas is.

I dont see why people assume this means Oracle fish was referring to Uub or Broly this whole time. Is there something I'm missing?

[Goku9001]

The Oracle Fish was clearly referring to Granolah.

Chpt 68:

Granny says "i'll have to grow stronger than anyone.
Legit next panel is Oracle Fish " Strongest Warrior in the Universe will soon rise up"

Chpt 70:
Goku asks Oracle fish "The Universes Greatest warrior has gotta be me, right, oracle fish?
All the while Whis is watching Granolah fly through space, the writers implying that its Granny, and we dont have to assume since we just saw him granted the title from the Dragon.

Chpt 82:
Oracle fish doesn't know who Gas is.

I dont see why people assume this means Oracle fish was referring to Uub or Broly this whole time. Is there something I'm missing?

Probably because the story is presenting it as a mystery. I think it makes more sense for it to be Granolah rather than Broly and Uub since it just makes for a confusing narrative otherwise.

[ssj3kakarot]

The Oracle Fish was clearly referring to Granolah.

Chpt 68:

Granny says "i'll have to grow stronger than anyone.
Legit next panel is Oracle Fish " Strongest Warrior in the Universe will soon rise up"

Chpt 70:
Goku asks Oracle fish "The Universes Greatest warrior has gotta be me, right, oracle fish?
All the while Whis is watching Granolah fly through space, the writers implying that its Granny, and we dont have to assume since we just saw him granted the title from the Dragon.

Chpt 82:
Oracle fish doesn't know who Gas is.

I dont see why people assume this means Oracle fish was referring to Uub or Broly this whole time. Is there something I'm missing?

Probably because the story is presenting it as a mystery. I think it makes more sense for it to be Granolah rather than Broly and Uub since it just makes for a confusing narrative otherwise.

How is it presenting it as a mystery? First it was Granolah (via the Dragonballs), now it is Gas (also via the Dragonballs).

Couldn't it be that the Oracle Fishs vision was only regarding Granny, and didn't take into account Gas. Which would explain his confusion, but still doesn't make the vision less accurate. Granolah was in fact the strongest for a time.

[Berserker1921]

The website description doesn’t say Goku has “returned” but that he transformed into his black haired form (which is just a description of how it looks like) and actually suggests it’s a whole new form.

However, this is a different form of Ultra Instinct in which Goku retains his emotions: in other words, Goku has finally awoken his true Ultra Instinct!

Sign is a incomplete version of MUI that followed the same principles. This is something different altogether.

The reference to his Black-haired form is one that we already know. The explanation that follows "However" is meant to place a distinction upon something we already knew. He transformed into his "Black-haired form" leaves the assumption that it's the same as Omen and anything that follows "However" is meant to clarify that there is a difference despite the form appearing similar.

In regards to Gas, I think it's clear what Gas is seeing when he reminisces Bardock. Gas earlier commented on Blue Goku lacking the fierceness in his eyes that Bardock had so Gas reminiscing Bardock upon the look in Goku's eyes (hence why Gas yells "That look!") signifies that Goku's heart is no longer calm. That he's a fierce warrior like his father is. That's the only distinction the source material makes that coincides with what the website tells us. Unless you want to take this literally and assume that Bardock was also using True Ultra Instinct, I think this is a flimsy argument.

As for who the Oracle Fish saw? I don't think it's Broly or Uub unless it's referring to innate power since Whis already confirmed that Goku and Vegeta had left everybody else in the universe in the dust.

The Oracle Fish was clearly referring to Granolah.

Chpt 68:

Granny says "i'll have to grow stronger than anyone.
Legit next panel is Oracle Fish " Strongest Warrior in the Universe will soon rise up"

Chpt 70:
Goku asks Oracle fish "The Universes Greatest warrior has gotta be me, right, oracle fish?
All the while Whis is watching Granolah fly through space, the writers implying that its Granny, and we dont have to assume since we just saw him granted the title from the Dragon.

Chpt 82:
Oracle fish doesn't know who Gas is.

I dont see why people assume this means Oracle fish was referring to Uub or Broly this whole time. Is there something I'm missing?

I was making a guess. Because the fish had seen everyone. And he wouldn’t refer to granolah cause that would make no sense. I said Broly, cause this arc leads to superhero and Broly is the strongest mortal then.

And I made the assumption or guess of Broly being the strongest cause of that the dbs editor said in the first interview. Saying Broly strongest. I suspect he might have been spoiling stuff.

Then I mentioned Uub, while out of the park, it would be a cool moment. And lead to the end of z.

[Atr]

I was making a guess. Because the fish had seen everyone. And he wouldn’t refer to granolah cause that would make no sense.

Why wouldn't it make sense?

[Koitsukai]

It'll probably be addressed next month, who was actually the person the Oracle foresaw.

Maybe it's Granola, and it has something to do with the wish, being the first one to wish for it, maybe the dragon made it so that he'll always end up being above whoever wished to surpass him. Explaining how Granny can now be so confident in letting Gas go, when he was surpassed many chapters ago.
Or, maybe the Oracle didn't recognize Gas because the Oracle meant Granny, and Gas is part of the shifted balance, a consequence, not the cause of it.

Goku and Vegeta shouldn't be it, the Oracle already knows them. I guess Elecc is still elegible, although that would mean the arc is far from over, or that the arc will end without exploring the shift in balance, whatever that is.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I dont see why people assume this means Oracle fish was referring to Uub or Broly this whole time. Is there something I'm missing?

I doubt it's either of them unless the prophecy is extending beyond the scope of this saga, but everything pointing to Granola could end up being a red herring.

Or, maybe the Oracle didn't recognize Gas because the Oracle meant Granny, and Gas is part of the shifted balance, a consequence, not the cause of it.

I like this explanation. Gas isn't going to live much longer anyway, so he ain't shifting no balance. His power up in itself is hardly a big consequence though, unless the Heeters will fall apart and this will affect Freeza somehow.

But deep down we all know Elec is going to show up as the real strongest. That how Toyotaro does it.

[Koitsukai]

About shifting the balance of the universe, what's your take about it? what is it about?
The only thing that comes to mind is the balance being Beerus' place at the top. Without a ruler to put everybody in their place if necessary, there would be no balance, I guess? everything would up for grabs, and chaos would ensue. Of course, Beerus kinda make sure chaos does ensue because he just sits around and lets thing be.

So, that would mean somebody surpassing Beerus, which still hasn't happened and probably won't, SH sorta invalidates it. So maybe it has nothing to do with the power hierarchy, even though it's related to the strongest.

Or something the strongest would be able to do... ?