Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[FeatsofPower]

I think I got it figured out now, I think I've accounted for nearly every issue, with just a few more left to go.

Piccolo W/o Weights 1,500,000,000
Android 17 1,500,000,000
Android 18 1,400,000,000
Piccolo W/ Weights 1,350,000,000
Imperfect Cell 1,200,000,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta 1,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku 950,000,000
Super Saiyan Trunks 875,000,000
Android 20 (Post Humans) 775,000,000
Piccolo W/o Weights 750,000,000
Android 20 (Post 2 Piccolos) 700,000,000
Android 20 (Post Piccolo) 625,000,000
Android 20 (Post Vegeta’s Blast) 550,000,000
Sick Goku 525,000,000
Android 19 (Post Base Goku) 500,000,000
Android 19 (Post KHH) 475,000,000
Sick Goku 425,000,000
Android 20 (Post Yamcha) 405,000,000
Android 20 375,000,000
Android 19 350,000,000
Vegeta 100,000,000
Goku 95,000,000
Trunks 87,500,000
Piccolo 75,000,000
Gohan 60,000,000
Kuririn 50,000,000
Tien 40,000,000
Yamcha 30,000,000
Sickest Goku 25,000,000


The only couple issues I feel like I'd like to address would be, what does Gero expect Piccolo to be in round 2?
How does Weakened Vegeta and Weakened 19 factor into this?
What about the BBA?
How strong is the BBA?
I'm assuming it's above Vegeta's top power by a good margin.
I'd probably put Vegeta on par with Yardrat Goku in this instance.
Perhaps 300,000,000 while drained.
Capable of what? 1,200,000,000 blast?
Is it possible that it's not even about Vegeta's attack not being affected by his fatigue, but that his amp is literally just that powerful here?
That's quite scary to think of.
That would be Final Flash levels of amp already, which seems to early to do so.
If Weakened Vegeta is 300,000,000
I guess I'd go with Weakened 19 at 200,000,000
But if 19 drained Vegeta of 700,000,000 worth of power level, shouldn't he be tremendously stronger?
Even if 19 was at literal 0, which I doubt, shouldn't it be like this?
Super Saiyan Vegeta 1,000,000,000
Android 19 0
Android 19 (Post Vegeta) 700,000,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta (Post Drain) 300,000,000
Why wouldn't 19 be stronger, if he absorbed most of Vegeta's power?
Also, I think I have a superior option to the 4x blast.
3x blast.
Super Saiyan Vegeta (Post Blast) 300,000,000
Big Bang Attack 900,000,000
As long as we get BBA > Piccolo, I think that's quite good.



And lastly, expected Piccolo. Shouldn't 20 know that Piccolo will power up. He removes his weights, Gero must be expecting at least somewhat of a power up.

[Mireya]

Where's it mentioned they surpassed Freeza there?

Yeah, I leafed through my Dragon Books, and I'm not seeing anything that directly says No.19 and No.20 are specifically stronger than Freeza or the pre-Timeskip Super Saiyans. I think I'm gonna stick with my old assumption that they didn't start encroaching on that territory until after they started sucking up people's energy.

The box over 16 and next to 18. “Even stronger foes, the Artificial Humans, appear[…]”

Based on anime filler, by the end of Namek, Tenshinhan is 80,000 (Split in half and beat Burta and Jeese, and then overpowered the Comet thingy) and Yamcha 45,000 (beat Recoome). They’ve gotten like 20x stronger training with Kaio sama.

For them to reach the 1M mark, they would need to get over 10x stronger, training on their own. That is having the same gains but without Kaio sama or a sparring partner(well, Chaozu…), and without the saiyan genetics that usually help with crazy gains.

We’ve seen in fillers that Yamcha tried and failed to train in the gravity chamber, so at best, being extremely lenient with his filler gains he can be 500K, +10x boost, more than what Goku got in those 3 years training with Piccolo and Gohan.
Tenshinhan trained with Chaozu, but considering that after seeing Yamcha get fisted, he didn’t back down, he should be stronger than him.

I can see Tenshinhan being above 1M, but not Yamcha, who was mistaken with Goku by the androids, who never thought Goku would get much stronger than he was in the Saiyan arc. So, Yamcha being above the million would mean Goku wasn’t close to his limits back in the saiyan arc as the androids foresaw.

The humans being 30 or 60 M is impossible, their potential would be greater than Gohan's. Not even Goku was that strong in his base form. Maybe that's were I would put A-19 and 20, but not the humans.

What I find really weird is that Gero was never really impressed by Goku himself until he went Super Saiyan, not even when he got angry and punched him in the face. It’s like Goku reaching the millions was part of his estimations… though not going far beyond that of course.

"Even stronger foes" as in reference to 19 and 20. Not seeing the correlation with Freeza. Not saying they aren't stronger than Freeza, just saying the Dragon Books aren't telling this.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

"Even stronger foes" as in reference to 19 and 20. Not seeing the correlation with Freeza. Not saying they aren't stronger than Freeza, just saying the Dragon Books aren't telling this.

But 19 and 20 are also Artificial Humans. All five of them are being grouped together and noted to be stronger than past foes.

I was talking about Gohan when he fought Lavender and Krillin. He grew stronger after training with Piccolo between episodes 88 and 90 and again while fighting Goku in episode 90. That Gohan is the one that rivaled SSB Goku.

Isn’t Lavender supposed to be at least as strong as Basil? Or do you think Basil is weaker than Freeza too?

[Mireya]

"Even stronger foes" as in reference to 19 and 20. Not seeing the correlation with Freeza. Not saying they aren't stronger than Freeza, just saying the Dragon Books aren't telling this.

But 19 and 20 are also Artificial Humans. All five of them are being grouped together and noted to be stronger than past foes.

I was talking about Gohan when he fought Lavender and Krillin. He grew stronger after training with Piccolo between episodes 88 and 90 and again while fighting Goku in episode 90. That Gohan is the one that rivaled SSB Goku.

Isn’t Lavender supposed to be at least as strong as Basil? Or do you think Basil is weaker than Freeza too?

It seems to be specifically talking about 17 and 18, otherwise it'd have mentioned 20 and 19 as well. It even mentions the chapters they appear in and says the battle "heats up even more", meaning in comparison to the one they just had against the fake androids, I'd say. Also, I'm not sure, are 19 and 20 labeled "artificial humans"? Or is that label specifically for 17 and 18?

[ZombieVito]

Isn’t Lavender supposed to be at least as strong as Basil? Or do you think Basil is weaker than Freeza too?

Basil matched Super Saiyan Gohan.

[DanielSSJ]

But 19 and 20 are also Artificial Humans. All five of them are being grouped together and noted to be stronger than past foes.

It could be referring to #19 and #20 in a general sense rather than specifically the level they start out at. Regardless of whether or not they're beyond Freeza when they first show up, they're definitely beyond him once they've absorbed some of the heroes' energy.

Also, I'm not sure, are 19 and 20 labeled "artificial humans"? Or is that label specifically for 17 and 18?

All of Dr. Gero's numbered creations are referred to as Jinzoningen/Artificial Humans/Androids, regardless of whether the word really fits them or not (and I'm pretty sure Cell is referred to as one, two). In fact, #19 and #20 fit the label better than #17 and #18 do. Jinzonigen is pretty much just Japan's standard word for android, and the twins, being cyborgs, would be better labeled as Kaiozoningen/Modified Humans.

[Mireya]

But 19 and 20 are also Artificial Humans. All five of them are being grouped together and noted to be stronger than past foes.

It could be referring to #19 and #20 in a general sense rather than specifically the level they start out at. Regardless of whether or not they're beyond Freeza when they first show up, they're definitely beyond him once they've absorbed some of the heroes' energy.

Also, I'm not sure, are 19 and 20 labeled "artificial humans"? Or is that label specifically for 17 and 18?

All of Dr. Gero's numbered creations are referred to as Jinzoningen/Artificial Humans/Androids, regardless of whether the word really fits them or not (and I'm pretty sure Cell is referred to as one, two). In fact, #19 and #20 fit the label better than #17 and #18 do. Jinzonigen is pretty much just Japan's standard word for android, and the twins, being cyborgs, would be better labeled as Kaiozoningen/Modified Humans.

Ic. Thanks for the info.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How strong are the Z Fighters by the time of Freeza and Cold’s arrival?

I think the humans mostly fit on the level of Freeza’s strongest men. Between Kuririn’s potential being fully unleashed and any training he might have done, I can see him reaching the 100k mark. As for the humans who trained at Kaio’s, applying the same boost Goku got gives us about 20k for Chaozu, 30k for Yamcha 60k for Tenshinhan. They said they’d train harder and also had each other though, so I can see Tenshinhan and Yamcha being way above Recoome and co., but not on Ginyu’s level since they’re below Kuririn.

Should Tenshinhan be closer to Kuririn or Yamcha? Yamcha reckons he’s the weakest by quite a margin in the Android Saga, but Tenshinhan isn’t that much more useful… But he does try at least.

Gohan is a bit vague. I used to think he left Namek around the 1 million mark, but now I see the argument is pretty feeble. If he started the Freeza fight at 200k, I think 400-500k is good for him. Afterwards he doesn’t seem to train, as usual… has he gotten weaker?

Piccolo has been training and has the balls to challenge Vegeta, but I doubt he’d let Vegeta talk shit about him regardless. Vegeta himself is the subject of a thread in another section; basically he thinks SSJ is the only reason Goku has surpassed him, but he might be coping as usual.


Finally, this is what I got:

Chaozu: 30,000
Yamcha: 60,000
Tenshinhan: 90,000
Kuririn: 100,000
Gohan: 450,000
Piccolo: 2,400,000/3,000,000
Vegeta: 3,200,000

[ZombieVito]

This is what I currently have for that arc:

Trunks Arc

Son Goku: 3,400,000
-- Super Saiyan: 170,000,000

Future Trunks: 3,200,000
-- Super Saiyan: 160,000,000

Freeza [Mecha]: 135,000,000
King Cold: 100,000,000
Vegeta: 2,500,000
Piccolo: 2,400,000
Son Gohan: 400,000
Krillin: 210,000
Tenshinhan: 150,000
Yamcha: 90,000
Chiaotzu: 30,000
Freeza’s elite soldiers: 1,500 – 2,500

[Koitsukai]

This was on my mind while I was rewatching the Namek arc.

Chaozu: +5,000
Yamcha: 42,000
Tenshinhan: 75,000
Chaozu beat Gurdo, Yamcha took out Recoome, and Ten's kanzoken worked against Burta and Jeese, and then he overpowered their combined special attack. Filler, sure, but they spent more time with Kaio and they had training partners, a 20-ishx boost seems feasible, that's what Goku accomplished in lesser time and alone.
They kept on training after Namek was destroyed, so they should be stronger, Yamcha will be mistaken for Goku, so he must be much stronger for that to make sense.
When they were revived, Yamcha could've been 70,000 and Tenshinhan around or above 100k. I think, by the time Freeza lands on Earth they are that strong.

Krilin: 75,000 (I feel, though that he should be higher than that by the time 2nd Form Freeza was chasing him)
--back on Earth: +100,000

Gohan:
-- after resting and whatnot before the Freeza fight: 300,000
-- rage boost vs 1st form Freeza: 900,000 and back to normal
-- after zenkai: 700,000
-- rage boost vs 3rd form Freeza: 2,100M
-- back on Earth: 1,500 M (a 2x zenkai boost seems ok, if at all, he didn't suffer enough to deserve a zenkai, so perhaps he is at 1M or less)

Piccolo: 1,200 M
-- weights off: 1,500 M
-- Mecha Freeza arrives: 2,5M

Vegeta:
---vs Jeese: 50,000 (the fight didn't seem like Geets was many times stronger)
-- vs 1st form Freeza: 500,000 (a 10x boost after that well deserved nap)
-- post zenkai: 2,500 M (5x boost)
-- MF arrives: + 3M (the zenkai is anime only, but he should get some type of boost after dying, a whole year passed. Equal or above Namek Goku seems like a nobrainer)

Freeza
2nd form: + 1 M
-- FP: 1,500M
-3rd form: 2,300 M
-4th form: 3,6 M

[FeatsofPower]

This is what I currently have for that arc:

Trunks Arc

Son Goku: 3,400,000
-- Super Saiyan: 170,000,000

Future Trunks: 3,200,000
-- Super Saiyan: 160,000,000

Freeza [Mecha]: 135,000,000
King Cold: 100,000,000
Vegeta: 2,500,000
Piccolo: 2,400,000
Son Gohan: 400,000
Krillin: 210,000
Tenshinhan: 150,000
Yamcha: 90,000
Chiaotzu: 30,000
Freeza’s elite soldiers: 1,500 – 2,500

You have Freeza rivaling Trunks, that's too close. Freeza has no chance against Trunks. He's way weaker. You will have to go way beyond 1.25x here.

[Kaboom]

There are no hardline rules for that sort of thing, especially not ones that can be imposed on other people's made-up power levels.

[FeatsofPower]

There are no hardline rules for that sort of thing, especially not ones that can be imposed on other people's made-up power levels.

Generally, people would like to remain logical and consistent. Or else, why not just make Freeza 1, Cell 2, Buu 3 and be done with it? Wouldn't you like to be remain logical and consistent with your lists?

[ZombieVito]

You have Freeza rivaling Trunks, that's too close. Freeza has no chance against Trunks. He's way weaker. You will have to go way beyond 1.25x here.

Freeza never used his full power to fight Trunks.

[Kaboom]

Generally, people would like to remain logical and consistent.

Yes, but everybody has different standards and attitudes about what that means. Which is fine because none of this is particularly consistent in the first place, even in the original story itself.

This thread is in the "Fan-Created Works" section for a reason.

[Mireya]

Then are we supposed to just stare at someone's list and say "cool"?... what kind of advice can be given besides "I don't agree with having such character above such character"? If that's the case, then there shouldn't have even be numbers... just an overall scaling system. I actually think it's way more constructive for a power level thread to be analyzed and criticized in details. A work of art tho it is art can also be criticized.

[Kaboom]

There are helpful forms of artistic feedback for power level lists, but "that gap is too [big/small]" isn't one of them. IF someone wants to keep a certain amount of internal consistency for their own list, then sure. But there is no universally "most correct" way to go about it.

Otherwise... yes, the thread is mainly for showing off your stuff, plus bouncing ideas around. It's an art, not a science.

[FeatsofPower]

You have Freeza rivaling Trunks, that's too close. Freeza has no chance against Trunks. He's way weaker. You will have to go way beyond 1.25x here.

Freeza never used his full power to fight Trunks.

That is a good point, but Trunks indicates that it wouldn't make a difference regardless of if Freeza did or not. He declared that he'd defeat Freeza in an instant and encouraged him to power up. Trunks should be plenty qualified to make such boastful claims considering Gohan was his master. He even was pretty close with what he expected out of Goku and that is a power beyond both he and Gohan.

Generally, people would like to remain logical and consistent.

Yes, but everybody has different standards and attitudes about what that means. Which is fine because none of this is particularly consistent in the first place, even in the original story itself.

This thread is in the "Fan-Created Works" section for a reason.

I can agree with that, the more you look into even Toriyama's power levels, the more you notice consistency is really not there. What if we could make the most consistent list ever though, wouldn't that be cool and fun?

[Mireya]

There are helpful forms of artistic feedback for power level lists, but "that gap is too [big/small]" isn't one of them.

And otherwise yes, the thread is mainly just to show off your stuff, plus bouncing around ideas. It's an art, not a science.

Movies are art and are criticized heavily.

I at least bet most ppl here want feedback on their lists. And I also fail to see how gaps aren't a good feedback. Everyone cares about them to an extent, otherwise we'd have characters separated from each other by 1 unit.

[Kaboom]

What if we could make the most consistent list ever though, wouldn't that be cool and fun?

No, it sounds overly rigid, creatively limiting, and not at all fun.

Everyone cares about them to an extent, otherwise we'd have characters separated from each other by 1 unit.

Sometimes we do.

Son Gohan (Battle of Gods) – 60,000,000
— Super Saiyan – 3,000,000,000
— Black-Haired Super Saiyan – 3,000,000,001