Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Goku9001]

I think Base Goku surpassed that level since the Cell Games. The manga omitted that line completely.

[DragonBallFanatic]

Going by the manga and Whis not knowing anyone stronger than Goku and Vegeta. Bulma being surprised that the strongest in the universe isn't either Goku and Vegeta. And that Toriyama clearly sees Broly as some benchmark.

It does seem like that whole Granolah wish about being the strongest in the universe just does not even take Broly into account.

Of course he wasn't in the manga so maybe that's why but he was still referred to.

Same thing with Moro being Goku's toughest enemy so far, again they may not be taking Broly into account at all with this.

Even more so seeing as Toyotaro said Goku, Vegeta and Granolah were 1, 2 and 3 at a time when Vegeta hadn't become Ultra Ego yet.

In the movie it seems like Toriyama has Broly as a benchmark, idk what Toyotaro’s plans are though for the manga in the long run.

Spoiler:

For right now it seems like Broly is forgotten with Toyotaro talking about the 3 strongest warriors in the universe of which don’t consist of Broly.





The manga and promo also dismisses Broly being a top warrior. Even before the part of the Heeters arc where Granolah and Gas were being wished as the strongest, Goku was called the strongest warrior by promo and the Oracle Fish predicts a new strongest warrior will rise, who was Granolah.











He’s weaker than Vegeta, Goku, Granolah and Gas. Broly as of now is not much of anything in the manga.

[Goku9001]

The events of Super Hero as they occur in the movie and the continuation of the ToP in the manga through the Moro and Granolah arcs were intended to be separate stories as Iyoku clarified in an interview. Therefore, it's no surprise that the manga as of now has a much different understanding of Broly's strength relative to what Super Hero had laid out. To assume that Broly's position on the power ladder hadn't changed requires far too many assumptions, whereas assuming that Broly falling off the ladder in the manga only requires you to take the narrative as is presented to us at face value. The Granolah arc is presented as Goku, Vegeta, and Granolah competing against each other as the 3 strongest fighters in the universe for a spot as the strongest fighter. Whis clearly presents Goku and Vegeta as being stronger than anyone in the universe until Granolah claims that spot for himself.

It's a weird and baseless assumption that Broly was forgotten and omitted from all power comparisons considering how Toyotaro views Broly as a proper extension of Super and blatantly acknowledges the work Toriyama put into it.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... -toyotaro/

[Translation]: "This movie is an extension of Super, so I believe that someday the time will come to draw him," [Toyotaro] said, with a look of certainty. "I'm thankful that the movie came before the comic. There are lots of battle scenes in the movie, but if I were to go first, I wouldn't have been able to draw them in that much detail. When the time comes, I'd like to use the movie as a reference to make it look cool in my own way," he said with a smile."

But, there's also the fact that Goku recounts his battle with Broly to Merus and talks about his amazing power that was growing rapidly to the point where he didn't think beating was even possible. This means that Broly was always on the back of their mind which gives further context to Goku's claim about Moro being the strongest fighter he's come across.

Broly is no longer relevant but he can easily reclaim his throne on the ladder considering there's a notable time gap between Granolah and Super Hero which means that stories can take place to allow that to happen. As of now, I think it's clear that Broly is much weaker than Goku and Vegeta.

[Koitsukai]

Do y'all think current base Goku w/o UI can defeat 100% Final Frieza (Namek) currently? If so, when do you think he reached that level?

Gas' power seems much more legit, since he started off scrapping with the likes of Bardock and has had 30+ years to improve on that. I can see Gas legit being stronger than FF Frieza, much stronger. For the rest of the Heeters, the Ginyu levels make the most sense.

We know from Toriyama's pen that he wasn't quite there yet by the time Beerus shows up, but after absorbing SSG he stomps.

That doesn't happen in the manga, and the anime goes back and forth with it, but he still grows stronger, and he shouldn't been that far off Freeza either.
The latest possible for Goku to surpass the 120M mark is RoF, months after training with Whis should be more than enough.
A base form of 60-ish M for the Cell arc, and 70-80 for the Buu arc seems acceptable to me... maybe +90M, or 100M by the time Beerus shows up. And training with Whis should put him above 120 without much trouble.

Current Goku, without UI should be more than enough to beat Namek Freeza and SS Goku. I think with UI he can fight current Freeza, without going SS. At the start of this arc, he probably could fight him and lose, by now he can beat him. By now, his base form could be around the 300M.


Toyo said the Heatas go from above Ginyu Force to below Freeza. So Gas shouldn't be challenging Freeza, not his FP at least. A 100x boost in 40 years seems good enough for a non-zenkai species that isn't so battle-driven and more on the intel side of things.

[Geraldo]

Goku, in his base form, was about 80 million by the time Beerus showed up.

Let's say he had trained with Whis for six months before Resurrection 'F' happened; he was strong enough to go toe to toe with Final From Frieza (over 226 times stronger than his first suppressed form who decimated a rusty Super Saiyan Gohan, who's above Piccolo who is more than 5 times stronger than Frieza from Namek).

So it's safe to assume that by then, base form Goku was already more than 10 times stronger than the 120,000,000 Frieza was at on Namek.

[ZombieVito]

Do y'all think current base Goku w/o UI can defeat 100% Final Frieza (Namek) currently? If so, when do you think he reached that level?

Yes, on both continuities and way before the current arc.

In the anime it was after the BoG arc and in the manga it was at least by the ToP arc since it's shown base Goku is superior to the Kaioshins.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Do y'all think current base Goku w/o UI can defeat 100% Final Frieza (Namek) currently? If so, when do you think he reached that level?

Freeza would die just by being near Goku. I think Goku surpassed him as early as the Cell Games, or after BoGs at worst.

[Goku9001]

The manga never made any mention of Base Goku being weaker than Frieza. Only the movie and anime include that statement and it's clear based on the context of the situation that Beerus was just probing Goku so he can witness his transformations. It may have originally been meant as a power statement but the anime has Beerus trash-talking Goku so I wouldn't use that as a definitive piece of evidence.

The Buu Saga has the Saiyans being confident in the Budokai despite Android 18 and Piccolo being present on top of the Daizenshuu stating that Base Kid Trunks was on par with 18. I don't really see the basis for Base Goku being weaker than Frieza based on a throwaway statement.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The way I see it, there are 2 main camps, and it all ties into the Super Saiyan form.

If you're of the camp that Super Saiyan has retained its large 50 times boost, then the base Saiyans before SSG's appearance being below full-power base Freeza is perfectly fine since they're multiplying their power by many tens of times to soar them past their old levels.

If you're of the camp that Super Saiyan was more a moderate jump or boost, then the base Saiyans before SSG's appearance being higher is than this old level is perfectly fine since they're not multiplying their power by all that much more.

[ZombieVito]

Are we still doing this almost 10 years later?

The line is straight from Toriyama and was never contradicted by Goku or Kaio. Namek Freeza > Base Goku is a fact.

[TheSaiyanGod]

The events of Super Hero as they occur in the movie and the continuation of the ToP in the manga through the Moro and Granolah arcs were intended to be separate stories as Iyoku clarified in an interview. Therefore, it's no surprise that the manga as of now has a much different understanding of Broly's strength relative to what Super Hero had laid out. To assume that Broly's position on the power ladder hadn't changed requires far too many assumptions, whereas assuming that Broly falling off the ladder in the manga only requires you to take the narrative as is presented to us at face value. The Granolah arc is presented as Goku, Vegeta, and Granolah competing against each other as the 3 strongest fighters in the universe for a spot as the strongest fighter. Whis clearly presents Goku and Vegeta as being stronger than anyone in the universe until Granolah claims that spot for himself.

It's a weird and baseless assumption that Broly was forgotten and omitted from all power comparisons considering how Toyotaro views Broly as a proper extension of Super and blatantly acknowledges the work Toriyama put into it.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... -toyotaro/

[Translation]: "This movie is an extension of Super, so I believe that someday the time will come to draw him," [Toyotaro] said, with a look of certainty. "I'm thankful that the movie came before the comic. There are lots of battle scenes in the movie, but if I were to go first, I wouldn't have been able to draw them in that much detail. When the time comes, I'd like to use the movie as a reference to make it look cool in my own way," he said with a smile."

But, there's also the fact that Goku recounts his battle with Broly to Merus and talks about his amazing power that was growing rapidly to the point where he didn't think beating was even possible. This means that Broly was always on the back of their mind which gives further context to Goku's claim about Moro being the strongest fighter he's come across.

Broly is no longer relevant but he can easily reclaim his throne on the ladder considering there's a notable time gap between Granolah and Super Hero which means that stories can take place to allow that to happen. As of now, I think it's clear that Broly is much weaker than Goku and Vegeta.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I see Broly's strength.

I mean, I can see the possibility of this arc ending with the Oracle Fish mentioning Broly as the true strongest all this time (and Whis, Goku and Vegeta forgot about him) just so Toyotaro can tie it into Super Hero, preparing the character for the next arc. But now, in the manga continuity, Broly was left behind a long time ago going by narrative and statements, just like Jiren. Which is just another reason to show that trying to scale characters from all continuites (including the new movie) won't work well

[Grimlock]

The manga never made any mention of Base Goku being weaker than Frieza.

There's no such mention in the movie as well. Not after the battle, which is how one can safely say if their opponent is stronger or weaker than someone else. And not before the battle, which would and could only be either an assumption or another interpretation altogether.

[Skar]

I didn't have a problem with the power levels given in DBZ Kakarot. It's only a video game but the numbers line up with BoG and almost every post-Namek saga PL like for V-Jump. Those only reach a few billion which would have the base Saiyans well below Freeza. I think it would be interesting if it had a sequel to see that guy's numbers for later in the series.

[Goku9001]

Are we still doing this almost 10 years later?

The line is straight from Toriyama and was never contradicted by Goku or Kaio. Namek Freeza > Base Goku is a fact.

But it's not in the manga?

I didn't have a problem with the power levels given in DBZ Kakarot. It's only a video game but the numbers line up with BoG and almost every post-Namek saga PL like for V-Jump. Those only reach a few billion which would have the base Saiyans well below Freeza. I think it would be interesting if it had a sequel to see that guy's numbers for later in the series.

I don't see the problem with a 2x SSJ multiplier then. Times have changed.

[Skar]

I don't see the problem with a 2x SSJ multiplier then. Times have changed.

What do you mean by that? I believe the 2x multiplier only appeared in the SEG but I don't know if another source had something else. It would be another example of official sources being more conservative than fans assumed. That would mean Goku's power in base and SSJ less than doubled between Cell and Buu sagas since he was still weaker than any SSJ2 Gohan. These three sources came to the same conclusion of how the base Saiyans compare to Freeza.

[Goku9001]

Yeah, that's pretty much how I see Broly's strength.

I mean, I can see the possibility of this arc ending with the Oracle Fish mentioning Broly as the true strongest all this time (and Whis, Goku and Vegeta forgot about him) just so Toyotaro can tie it into Super Hero, preparing the character for the next arc. But now, in the manga continuity, Broly was left behind a long time ago going by narrative and statements, just like Jiren. Which is just another reason to show that trying to scale characters from all continuites (including the new movie) won't work well

Yes. There was an interview involving Akiyo Iyoku who explained why there were differences between Super Hero and the manga. In short, Super Hero was produced as a direct continuation to Broly which means that it never was made to account for the Moro and Granolah arcs as those hadn't been conceived at a time. Therefore, there wasn't a sure-fire way that Super Hero could be reconciled with the manga. I have no doubt that Jiren and Broly would eventually return and become relevant on the power ladder. But in the meantime, the current arc makes it a clear point that Goku and Vegeta had left everyone in the dust until Granolah showed up.

The manga never made any mention of Base Goku being weaker than Frieza.

There's no such mention in the movie as well. Not after the battle, which is how one can safely say if their opponent is stronger or weaker than someone else. And not before the battle, which would and could only be either an assumption or another interpretation altogether.

I acknowledge that the statement was made in the movie but people often disregard the context and then conveniently circle back to it once they realize that the manga only has Beerus suggesting that Goku surpassed Frieza with Super Saiyan 2.

I don't see the problem with a 2x SSJ multiplier then. Times have changed.

What do you mean by that? I believe the 2x multiplier only appeared in the SEG but I don't know if another source had something else. It would be another example of official sources being more conservative than fans assumed. That would mean Goku's power in base and SSJ less than doubled between Cell and Buu sagas since he was still weaker than any SSJ2 Gohan. These three sources came to the same conclusion of how the base Saiyans compare to Freeza.

Kakarot isn't an official source by any stretch of the imagination. That's my point. It's much less credible than the Daizenshuu which confirms the opposite of what you're saying.

[Skar]

Kakarot isn't an official source by any stretch of the imagination. That's my point. It's much less credible than the Daizenshuu which confirms the opposite of what you're saying.

Maybe whoever chose those numbers came to a different conclusion than you but it's supported by a direct statement in BoG. It doesn't seem likely that multiple sources implying the same thing are all wrong. I'm not sure what the Daizenshuu implied that's the opposite or contradicts either one?

[Goku9001]

Kakarot isn't an official source by any stretch of the imagination. That's my point. It's much less credible than the Daizenshuu which confirms the opposite of what you're saying.

Maybe whoever chose those numbers came to a different conclusion than you but it's supported by a direct statement in BoG. It doesn't seem likely that multiple sources implying the same thing are all wrong. I'm not sure what the Daizenshuu implied that's the opposite or contradicts either one?

The statement isn't even in the manga.

The Daizenshuu blatantly states that Base Trunks is on par with 18, which is what we see in the manga more or less.

[ZombieVito]

But it's not in the manga?

Doesn't matter.

The movie written by the creator of the series has the statement.

[Goku9001]

But it's not in the manga?

Doesn't matter.

The movie written by the creator of the series has the statement.

The movie written by the creator also has Super Saiyan Goku at God level.