Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Skar]

The statement isn't even in the manga.

The Daizenshuu blatantly states that Base Trunks is on par with 18, which is what we see in the manga more or less.

That statement has been discussed on several threads here before. It's usually pointed out that she wasn't going all out and that Buu took on Piccolo's appearance after Gotenks defused. We assumed Buu could draw out their full power since they're all unconscious. I don't think there's enough room between 18 and Piccolo that base Trunks could be stronger than her but SSJ Trunks is weaker than Piccolo.

[Goku9001]

The statement isn't even in the manga.

The Daizenshuu blatantly states that Base Trunks is on par with 18, which is what we see in the manga more or less.

That statement has been discussed on several threads here before. It's usually pointed out that she wasn't going all out and that Buu took on Piccolo's appearance after Gotenks defused. We assumed Buu could draw out their full power since they're all unconscious. I don't think there's enough room between 18 and Piccolo that base Trunks could be stronger than her but SSJ Trunks is weaker than Piccolo.

No, it would be referencing the character's full power as that would be the natural assumption to make. Otherwise, the statement makes no sense and there's no purpose in making it. That would be you inserting your own subtext in that statement to support a preconceived conclusion. Furthermore, SSJ Trunks is much stronger than Piccolo so I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

[Skar]

No, it would be referencing the character's full power as that would be the natural assumption to make. Otherwise, the statement makes no sense and there's no purpose in making it. That would be you inserting your own subtext in that statement to support a preconceived conclusion.

If you want to believe it means base Trunks is as strong as 18 then it's up to you which statement holds more weight. A line in the Daizenshuu or direct statement in BoG written by Toriyama also implied in other sources. My point for DBZ Kakarot is that some writer assumed Beerus' statement was true to think those numbers could work. I still don't know what you meant by "times have changed" since these are more recent than the Daizenshuu entry.

Furthermore, SSJ Trunks is much stronger than Piccolo so I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

Where was this stated? I remember only comparison was Piccolo showing up most after Gotenks defused.

[Koitsukai]

It doesn't matter if the line wasn't included in the manga, because the author, in BoG, already established how strong Goku ended up being in his original story, below Freeza. The line is about Z, it's something that's bound to change soon, so is irrelevant to DBS, Toyo has no input in the original story, he can't override what Toriyama determines about his own story, certainly not in 2015.

The manga not including the absorption of SSG is a whole different beast, that's actually a new thing, a process Goku does not do, something related to DBS and how the new story, in charge of Toyo, will develop. It's a going-forward change.

Also, why give more credit to something the Daizenshuu said decades ago, written by god knows who, than something Toriyama wrote recently? if there's a contradiction, then the non-author take is the discarded take.

This horse's been beaten to death by now, I just hope we don't loop back to 3 months ago with 5 pages of the same discussion again, so I'll leave it at that. Certainly the latest revelations open up new discussions.

[Mr Baggins]

The Daizenshuu guidebooks were written by Shueisha staff members who painstakingly went through all the information in the manga and compiled it into a big encyclopedia. They're nice coffee table books if you can read Japanese, but also about the least reliable sources of information to use in the context of specific comparisons. Toriyama's own endorsement of them admits he wasn't particularly involved. Tenshinhan is (probably) not descended from aliens.

However, it's not inaccurate to say that Toriyama has embraced more of a 'word-of-god' role in DB's post-2012 revival era, providing a bunch of new canonical tidbits for interviews, the Super serialization, and games like DBZ Kakarot. All of these would be more reliable in strength discussions if some piece of information happened to relate to a character's strength. As everyone knows, he wrote the movies. Base Goku — at least the Goku from the beginning of Super — is absolutely weaker than Namek Freeza, and countless materials back it up at this point. If that's how the creator imagines it, then that's how it is.

As has been said above, this horse is beyond dead; it's an unrecognizable husk now. There's no reason to keep dredging this topic up when it's an argument that goes nowhere every time people spend 5+ forum pages talking about it.

[ZombieVito]

The statement isn't even in the manga.

The Daizenshuu blatantly states that Base Trunks is on par with 18, which is what we see in the manga more or less.

That statement has been discussed on several threads here before. It's usually pointed out that she wasn't going all out and that Buu took on Piccolo's appearance after Gotenks defused. We assumed Buu could draw out their full power since they're all unconscious. I don't think there's enough room between 18 and Piccolo that base Trunks could be stronger than her but SSJ Trunks is weaker than Piccolo.

Boo can definitely bring out a person's full power when absorbed. It's the only reason Gotenks lasting the full 30 minutes as a Super Saiyan 3 inside of him makes any sense.

[Grimlock]

I acknowledge that the statement was made in the movie but people often disregard the context

The context refers to the scene where Beerus sees a black-haired Saiyan fighting Freeza and then he transforms into a yellow-haired Saiyan. Beerus even asks Whis what was that, and Whis replied it's something Saiyans developed to get stronger. Then, upon seeing Goku personally, Beerus says that as he is now (a Saiyan with black hair), he wasn't able to defeat Freeza. He only managed to do that after transforming.

There's no sense someone would suddenly show up and say "you're weaker than that one". At least not after a fight, where you can make a proper judgment. Prior to the fight, Beerus had no knowledge and no way to know how strong Goku is. Or at least, that's what common sense would say, but after learning right here that "Movie 14 Goku being stronger than Freeza" is wrong and "Android 17 managing to go from putting up a decent fight against Piccolo to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku only by taking care of animals" people are okay with this, that sure tells me that there is no logical or common sense to expect from people.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Boo took on Dai Kaioshin’s appearance even though South Kaioshin was the stronger one. I don’t think power is the only factor to make one absorption stand out, specially when Piccolo and the boys are a very negligible power up to him.

Does anybody here think Beerus used 1/10th of his power on Vegeta? I mean it’s stated, so it surely must have been what the author wanted right?

As has been said above, this horse is beyond dead; it's an unrecognizable husk now. There's no reason to keep dredging this topic up when it's an argument that goes nowhere every time people spend 5+ forum pages talking about it.

Isn’t that the deal with over half the discussions here?

[ZombieVito]

Boo took on Dai Kaioshin’s appearance even though South Kaioshin was the stronger one. I don’t think power is the only factor to make one absorption stand out, specially when Piccolo and the boys are a very negligible power up to him.

Does anybody here think Beerus used 1/10th of his power on Vegeta? I mean it’s stated, so it surely must have been what the author wanted right?

Can you prove Toriyama wrote that episode?

[Hugo Boss]

Furthermore, SSJ Trunks is much stronger than Piccolo so I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

Where was this stated? I remember only comparison was Piccolo showing up most after Gotenks defused.

There is a bonus chapter in Dragon Ball Super manga showing Goten and Trunks having a little quarrel against Cell Jrs. in their Super Saiyan forms, which may suggest they are around Goku or Vegeta’s level when they fought Cell. Gohan also once implied the kids were almost catching him up in Boo arc and Piccolo was once blown away by their combined power in God’s temple when they went all out. So, I would say they are at least comparable in strength, if not stronger than Piccolo.

In contrary to that, in Dragon Ball GT, Trunks implies Piccolo is one of the fighters on Earth that surpass him, but granted Trunks also admitted he was weaker than when he fought Boo.

[Goku9001]

The Daizenshuu guidebooks were written by Shueisha staff members who painstakingly went through all the information in the manga and compiled it into a big encyclopedia. They're nice coffee table books if you can read Japanese, but also about the least reliable sources of information to use in the context of specific comparisons. Toriyama's own endorsement of them admits he wasn't particularly involved. Tenshinhan is (probably) not descended from aliens.

However, it's not inaccurate to say that Toriyama has embraced more of a 'word-of-god' role in DB's post-2012 revival era, providing a bunch of new canonical tidbits for interviews, the Super serialization, and games like DBZ Kakarot. All of these would be more reliable in strength discussions if some piece of information happened to relate to a character's strength. As everyone knows, he wrote the movies. Base Goku — at least the Goku from the beginning of Super — is absolutely weaker than Namek Freeza, and countless materials back it up at this point. If that's how the creator imagines it, then that's how it is.

As has been said above, this horse is beyond dead; it's an unrecognizable husk now. There's no reason to keep dredging this topic up when it's an argument that goes nowhere every time people spend 5+ forum pages talking about it.

I believe one of Akira Toriyama's editors who was directly involved in the manga actually did contribute to the Daizenshuu as well. It's a far more credible source than the SEG multipliers and DBZ Kakarot which people take for granted. The only source that directly supports the idea behind Base Goku being weaker than Frieza was Beerus' assessment of Base Goku and that's generally a contextless interpretation of it. It was never meant as a direct power statement. Beerus even deliberately says "What's more, I hear you guys are capable of transformation" making it clear why Beerus made that assessment in the first place.

Regardless, just as Toyotaro was given the liberty of omitting the God-level Base form, Toyotaro was given the liberty of omitting that statement completely. Therefore, in Toyotaro's eyes, the Base Saiyans could be stronger than Frieza and that's really all that matters here. Toriyama approved of this change so he clearly doesn't think this is an impossibility.

Can you link the materials that explicitly state that Base Goku < Frieza? I have yet to see them.

[Goku9001]

No, it would be referencing the character's full power as that would be the natural assumption to make. Otherwise, the statement makes no sense and there's no purpose in making it. That would be you inserting your own subtext in that statement to support a preconceived conclusion.

If you want to believe it means base Trunks is as strong as 18 then it's up to you which statement holds more weight. A line in the Daizenshuu or direct statement in BoG written by Toriyama also implied in other sources. My point for DBZ Kakarot is that some writer assumed Beerus' statement was true to think those numbers could work. I still don't know what you meant by "times have changed" since these are more recent than the Daizenshuu entry.

I was strictly comparing what the Daizenshuu states to DBZ Kakarot. The only argument you have is a statement that was omitted from the manga that Toriyama approved of and that takes precedence over whatever the movie stated. Regardless, I don't really understand that argument because this is the equivalent of just getting a few random friends together and publishing their own fanmade sources to use as evidence. It's incredibly dishonest and that's the equivalent of what you're doing here. Just because a bunch of random people said this was the case doesn't constitute any definitive evidence. We would need to see how they came to that conclusion and we don't know that.

Where was this stated? I remember only comparison was Piccolo showing up most after Gotenks defused.

When Goten sparred with Gohan. When Trunks landed a blow on Vegeta. And when Goten and Trunks' powers as Super Saiyans blatantly blew Piccolo away at the Lookout.

[BWri]

Furthermore, SSJ Trunks is much stronger than Piccolo so I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

Where was this stated? I remember only comparison was Piccolo showing up most after Gotenks defused.

There is a bonus chapter in Dragon Ball Super manga showing Goten and Trunks having a little quarrel against Cell Jrs. in their Super Saiyan forms, which may suggest they are around Goku or Vegeta’s level when they fought Cell. Gohan also once implied the kids were almost catching him up in Boo arc and Piccolo was once blown away by their combined power in God’s temple when they went all out. So, I would say they are at least comparable in strength, if not stronger than Piccolo.

In contrary to that, in Dragon Ball GT, Trunks implies Piccolo is one of the fighters on Earth that surpass him, but granted Trunks also admitted he was weaker than when he fought Boo.

That's post Buu saga (by several years in fact) and there's not really any evidence that proves Piccolo is weaker than the Cell Jrs 7 years after the Cell arc. With what we know of DB and from what we can see in DBS, its likely he gained a decent amount of strength in those 7 years which is why he is sometimes inferred to be superior to the boys when they're unfused. My guess is Piccolo hovered somewhere close to MSSJ Goku, which wouldn't be considered much by the main players of the Buu arc who were all Cell level or above, but it makes sense as a benchmark for Piccolo who never stops training. But its all very inconsistent, I suppose.

I address this in more detail in a previous post

[Hugo Boss]

I think (Boo arc, RoF, SH) Piccolo being at (Cell arc) SS Goku’s level makes him seem too close to SS Gohan (Boo arc, RoF, SH). Piccolo has been constantly portrayed as far weaker than SS Gohan after they fought Cell, despite never stopping his training, except for that infamous episode 88 from Dragon Ball Super anime, whilst SS Goten was said to be not that far behind SS Gohan.

The quarrel against the Cell Jrs. just illustrate that, but the relevant piece of information is what Gohan once said and, of course, Vegeta having to take Trunks seriously for once. I don’t think Trunks or Goten would actually be an equal match for Gohan in the same forms, but at least on the battle power department they are relatively close. And honestly I don’t see any evidence that shows that Piccolo has surpassed a Cell Jr. either, at least not until he had his potential unlocked.

[Mr Baggins]

It's a far more credible source than the SEG multipliers and DBZ Kakarot which people take for granted.

Think about what you're comparing: "I think one of Toriyama's editors contributed to the guidebook, but I'm not sure what" vs. "We know Toriyama himself contributed to DBZ Kakarot, but we're not sure to what extent he oversaw information used in the game".

For many, the Daizenshuu would come out less credible by default here. It isn't as recent, and doesn't have the author's direct involvement. I'm not so invested as to argue which bit of material definitively has more authority, but the notion that the Daizenshuu automatically wins because it's a published Shueisha piece is hardly a foolproof argument.

I think a lot of you guys misunderstand what the Daizenshuu actually is. It's not some special clarification guide on hypothetical power comparisons, it's just a handy Dragon Ball encyclopedia with a few weird oddities that may not have aligned with Toriyama's vision.

The only source that directly supports the idea behind Base Goku being weaker than Frieza was Beerus' assessment of Base Goku and that's generally a contextless interpretation of it.

That is in no way contextless. Beerus assesses base Goku, then straight up says it wouldn't be possible to stand up to Freeza as he is while conceding he can transform into a Super Saiyan. Just as with this Trunks song and dance a while back, the context is as straightforward as it gets and a couple of you guys seem to want to overcomplicate it to fit your preconceptions. Doesn't work that way.

Regardless, just as Toyotaro was given the liberty of omitting the God-level Base form, Toyotaro was given the liberty of omitting that statement completely.

Nah, that's flawed reasoning. He didn't omit the statement completely (he says he can understand why Goku beat Freeza after Goku fights him in one of his Super Saiyan forms, which contextually carries the same basic meaning) but even if he did, the exclusion of one line of dialogue doesn't totally invalidate the comparison in the same way that the exclusion of an entire event would invalidate the existence of a god-level form. That's apples and oranges, man.

Anyway, semantics are boring and I'm not interested in another 5+ pages of this... again. This post is the last time I'll ever broach the subject. The manga doesn't need to directly include this line to have plenty of other instances that would align with it, as we've discussed more times in this thread than I care to count. Y'all need to let the authors do things the way they want.

[Skar]

I was strictly comparing what the Daizenshuu states to DBZ Kakarot. The only argument you have is a statement that was omitted from the manga that Toriyama approved of and that takes precedence over whatever the movie stated. Regardless, I don't really understand that argument because this is the equivalent of just getting a few random friends together and publishing their own fanmade sources to use as evidence. It's incredibly dishonest and that's the equivalent of what you're doing here. Just because a bunch of random people said this was the case doesn't constitute any definitive evidence. We would need to see how they came to that conclusion and we don't know that.

What about those sources is dishonest? One source is from a move written by the author himself and the other is a video game he was involved with. I can understand not agreeing with them but claiming they're from my random friends is an odd way to discredit them and disingenuous.

[Goku9001]

I was strictly comparing what the Daizenshuu states to DBZ Kakarot. The only argument you have is a statement that was omitted from the manga that Toriyama approved of and that takes precedence over whatever the movie stated. Regardless, I don't really understand that argument because this is the equivalent of just getting a few random friends together and publishing their own fanmade sources to use as evidence. It's incredibly dishonest and that's the equivalent of what you're doing here. Just because a bunch of random people said this was the case doesn't constitute any definitive evidence. We would need to see how they came to that conclusion and we don't know that.

What about those sources is dishonest? One source is from a move written by the author himself and the other is a video game he was involved with. I can understand not agreeing with them but claiming they're from my random friends is an odd way to discredit them and disingenuous.

And yet you do not know who spitballed those power levels so it may as well be random.

[Goku9001]

For many, the Daizenshuu would come out less credible by default here. It isn't as recent, and doesn't have the author's direct involvement. I'm not so invested as to argue which bit of material definitively has more authority, but the notion that the Daizenshuu automatically wins because it's a published Shueisha piece is hardly a foolproof argument.

I think a lot of you guys misunderstand what the Daizenshuu actually is. It's not some special clarification guide on hypothetical power comparisons, it's just a handy Dragon Ball encyclopedia with a few weird oddities that may not have aligned with Toriyama's vision.

On the contrary, I would wager that supplementary material that was designed to convey information that we may not have known otherwise, was published by an official source that in recent times knows what they are talking about, was worked on by an editor who worked alongside Toriyama on the manga, and garnered Toriyama's approval is more credible than that is not tailored for conveying any sort of information where the involvement of Toriyama is completely unknown. And I would think that's a compelling enough argument seeing as how many adhere to the Super Exciting Guide for whatever reason.

This is the first I'm hearing of a video game being used as any sort of evidence whatsoever. Regardless, it doesn't undermine the fact that the Daizenshuu does indeed provide clarification on many power comparisons that bears no contradictions to the original source material whatsoever.

That is in no way contextless. Beerus assesses base Goku, then straight up says it wouldn't be possible to stand up to Freeza as he is while conceding he can transform into a Super Saiyan. Just as with this Trunks song and dance a while back, the context is as straightforward as it gets and a couple of you guys seem to want to overcomplicate it to fit your preconceptions. Doesn't work that way.

You claim that it is not contextless and yet proceed to give me a superficial interpretation that is indeed contextless. There is no comparison between Base Goku and Frieza being made and the comparison Beerus makes between Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Frieza is one to incite another transformation from Goku to acquire more information on Super Saiyan God as that is the reason why Beerus visited Kaiosama's planet in the first place. This is pretty straightforward.

Nah, that's flawed reasoning. He didn't omit the statement completely (he says he can understand why Goku beat Freeza after Goku fights him in one of his Super Saiyan forms, which contextually carries the same basic meaning) but even if he did, the exclusion of one line of dialogue doesn't totally invalidate the comparison in the same way that the exclusion of an entire event would invalidate the existence of a god-level form. That's apples and oranges, man.

Anyway, semantics are boring and I'm not interested in another 5+ pages of this... again. This post is the last time I'll ever broach the subject. The manga doesn't need to directly include this line to have plenty of other instances that would align with it, as we've discussed more times in this thread than I care to count. Y'all need to let the authors do things the way they want.

How so? Both are omissions in which Toei deliberately integrated them into their own work yet Toyotaro did not. It's completely relevant regardless of whatever unique spin you want to place on it.

I'm not seeing the multiple sources suggesting Base Goku < Frieza so yeah, agree to disagree.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Super Saiyan Trunks isn't as strong as Piccolo because after Buu, Piccolo was the first choice to join the U6 Tournament and when the kids asked if they could join Vegeta told them to get stronger on their own aka without counting on Fusion.

He was perfectly fine with Piccolo taking part.

[Skar]

And yet you do not know who spitballed those power levels so it may as well be random.

We don't know the exact person who spitballed the information you're referencing from the Daizenshuu either. You're still (deliberately?) missing the point. The reason I brought up DBZ Kakarot because it's a game involving Toriyama and consistent with a line that he wrote himself. If the guy who wrote those numbers was my friend and I asked how he came up with them, I assume his answer would be believing direct statements Toriyama wrote. You're probably not going to find anyone working at these studios disagreeing with that statement and deciding to read between the lines to come to a different conclusion.

Herms had a fusion guide showing the guidebooks have had contradictory information about which fusion was stronger over the years. Most likely because it wasn't really clear in the manga at the time. Toriyama seems to treat them as equal now. That would be an example of "times have changed" because Toriyama is clarifying his opinion on that topic and most likely going to kept in later sources.