Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Super Saiyan Trunks isn't as strong as Piccolo because after Buu, Piccolo was the first choice to join the U6 Tournament and when the kids asked if they could join Vegeta told them to get stronger on their own aka without counting on Fusion.

He was perfectly fine with Piccolo taking part.

To be fair, in the anime specifically, he trained with Gohan in the leadup to the U6/7 Tournament and seemed to get a bit stronger, enough so that Gohan was the one tuckered out while Piccolo was fine, something which would later be followed up on by him being decidedly superior to SS Gohan and equal in power to SS2 Gohan.

I don't doubt that he could've improved a tad bit in the manga as well given how he was holding his own against Frost in that medium. In the anime, Piccolo was fully on the defensive and had to minimize direct combat, whereas there was less of that in the manga to show the difference wasn't as great.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

AT has long given writing duties to Toyotaro and the Toei stuff guys. He’s not the only guy calling the shots, it’s not 1992 anymore. What’s the point of being purists about it when you’re going to ignore SSJG being over half as strong as Beerus or Base Goku absorbing SSJG anyway? At least these are actually important lines that affect the plot, Base Goku being weaker than Freeza is just throwaway line to get him to transform.

Are these the Kakarot power levels we’re talking about?

[Mr Baggins]

Holy denial batman.

Beerus flat-out told Goku it'd be impossible to beat Freeza "as you are now", then acknowledged that he can transform. He was curious about the Super Saiyan forms... with not one indication that he was just lying to Goku (who doesn't even deny the comparison), or that the writers are misleading their audience, or that both Toei and Toyotaro only coincidentally used their own version of the same line with the same exact implication, or that so many things within and outside of the manga adhering to that power structure was mere happenstance.

The fact of the matter is that you two are going out of your way to discredit a harmless, straightforward comparison with "context" gymnastics while ironically ignoring the actual context. I can't think of any rhyme or reason to be so stubbornly obtuse about this other than simply being uncomfortable with it — although at this point, I'll let you come to terms with that on your own time. It is what it is, but I don't think we should have to spend another dozen posts explaining this stuff to a couple of guys who were always planning to be disingenuous about it. It sure would be nice to move on to other, more conducive topics of discussion.

[BWri]

I think (Boo arc, RoF, SH) Piccolo being at (Cell arc) SS Goku’s level makes him seem too close to SS Gohan (Boo arc, RoF, SH). Piccolo has been constantly portrayed as far weaker than SS Gohan after they fought Cell, despite never stopping his training, except for that infamous episode 88 from Dragon Ball Super anime, whilst SS Goten was said to be not that far behind SS Gohan.

IIRC, there is a sizeable difference between MSSJ Goku and MSSJ Gohan before Gohan even goes SSJ2. And I'm not saying that Piccolo has surpassed MSSJ but I do think he's closer to that level than he would be to Semi-Cell, Trunks and Vegeta from the Cell Games, or a Cell Jr. 7 years is a long time and Piccolo wasn't far from those I just listed. I don't think it's logical to keep him down there at this point.

The quarrel against the Cell Jrs. just illustrate that, but the relevant piece of information is what Gohan once said and, of course, Vegeta having to take Trunks seriously for once. I don’t think Trunks or Goten would actually be an equal match for Gohan in the same forms, but at least on the battle power department they are relatively close.

I'm not sure why so many of you put so much stock into these scenes with Goten and Trunks when they're clearly gag scenes meant to show that Gohan and Vegeta are thrown off by the kids having SSJ so young and so effortlessly. As shown, neither Gohan or Vegeta can properly gauge how strong the boys are right away and as soon as one of them gets serious (Vegeta) he takes down Trunks in one blow. I've never read that as the boys being close to Gohan in power, I read it as them being prodigies with a lot of power for their age ... which seems to be the intention.

The whole point of Goten and Kid Trunks was never to be impressive solo fighters but to be impressive as Gotenks. That's why the story never goes out of its way to show 100% that they superior to others such as #18 or Piccolo. Sometimes the story subtly does the opposite like with Buu taking Piccolo's form after fusion wears off.

And honestly I don’t see any evidence that shows that Piccolo has surpassed a Cell Jr. either, at least not until he had his potential unlocked.

Until DBS: Super Hero!? That's wild! I discussed that with Cipher a while back.

[dragonball0900]

And honestly I don’t see any evidence that shows that Piccolo has surpassed a Cell Jr. either, at least not until he had his potential unlocked.

Piccolo before the ToP was seen easily defeating SSJ2 Gohan, this same Gohan must have been at least as strong as his Buu Saga self, so Piccolo should be far above a Cell Jr. at this point. There's no way he is still weaker by the time of DBS Super Hero.

[Skar]

AT has long given writing duties to Toyotaro and the Toei stuff guys. He’s not the only guy calling the shots, it’s not 1992 anymore. What’s the point of being purists about it when you’re going to ignore SSJG being over half as strong as Beerus or Base Goku absorbing SSJG anyway? At least these are actually important lines that affect the plot, Base Goku being weaker than Freeza is just throwaway line to get him to transform.

We have evidence those were retconned since the gap between SSJG and Beerus is wider now and SSJG returned later. The fact that base Goku being weaker than Freeza doesn't really affect the story means Toriyama didn't need to include it in the first place and less a reason to change it. I don't think either version of DBS implied that. Some people use the image training in the manga as evidence that SSJ Goku is stronger than Perfect Cell but don't count the part where he also used SSJ1 to defeat Freeza.

I've counted maybe ten different attempts to either discredit it, interpret it differently, or claim it no longer applies. It seems like spitballing any conceivable argument in hopes that one of them might convince people to question it. I still don't understand the need to do that if you personally don't believe it.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

We have evidence those were retconned since the gap between SSJG and Beerus is wider now and SSJG returned later. The fact that base Goku being weaker than Freeza doesn't really affect the story means Toriyama didn't need to include it in the first place and less a reason to change it. I don't think either version of DBS implied that. Some people use the image training in the manga as evidence that SSJ Goku is stronger than Perfect Cell but don't count the part where he also used SSJ1 to defeat Freeza.

I've counted maybe ten different attempts to either discredit it, interpret it differently, or claim it no longer applies. It seems like spitballing any conceivable argument in hopes that one of them might convince people to question it. I still don't understand the need to do that if you personally don't believe it.

Have we? If we’re exclusively following stuff that came out from Toriyama himself, nothing in the movies places Beerus that far above Goku and Vegeta to warrant a retcon. I mean, Beerus does say Goku has gotten a tiny bit weaker when he lost SSJG, and since the guidebooks are just coffe table books then who’s to say Base Goku isn’t a 5 to SSJG’s 6 and SSJB’s 7?

I’ve always thought that line was supposed to be just an excuse to make Goku transform. The usual Boo Saga statements aside, Goku can’t be weaker than Freeza and stronger than Gohan and Gotenks at the same time.

Holy denial batman.

Beerus flat-out told Goku it'd be impossible to beat Freeza "as you are now", then acknowledged that he can transform. He was curious about the Super Saiyan forms... with not one indication that he was just lying to Goku (who doesn't even deny the comparison), or that the writers are misleading their audience, or that both Toei and Toyotaro only coincidentally used their own version of the same line with the same exact implication, or that so many things within and outside of the manga adhering to that power structure was mere happenstance.

The fact of the matter is that you two are going out of your way to discredit a harmless, straightforward comparison with "context" gymnastics while ironically ignoring the actual context. I can't think of any rhyme or reason to be so stubbornly obtuse about this other than simply being uncomfortable with it — although at this point, I'll let you come to terms with that on your own time. It is what it is, but I don't think we should have to spend another dozen posts explaining this stuff to a couple of guys who were always planning to be disingenuous about it. It sure would be nice to move on to other, more conducive topics of discussion.

He actually says “I don’t think”, not “It’s impossible”.

I really don’t think it’s fair to lump me and Goku9001 together since I don’t think Toyotaro’s version of the line the line changes much (though Toei Beerus’ reaction to SSJ1 Goku is interesting) but I can assure you we both have the evidence to lead to this conclusion, but there’s just no point in bringing it up when knowing the usual excuses for it. “Oh but 18 was holding back on the boys” “oh but she had no reason to” to is the boring, repetitive part of the discussion.

[Skar]

Have we? If we’re exclusively following stuff that came out from Toriyama himself, nothing in the movies places Beerus that far above Goku and Vegeta to warrant a retcon. I mean, Beerus does say Goku has gotten a tiny bit weaker when he lost SSJG, and since the guidebooks are just coffe table books then who’s to say Base Goku isn’t a 5 to SSJG’s 6 and SSJB’s 7?

I'm not sure what guidebooks have to do with this since I recall Toriyama said that in an interview. Blue Kaioken x20 is weaker than Beerus implying God is less than 5% of Beerus power in the anime. Blue was around 10x stronger than God also implying that its a small percentage of Beerus' power in the manga. In Broly, base Gogeta was stronger than Blue Goku and Vegeta individually but needed Blue to defeat Broly who was maybe as strong as Beerus. I assume it was Toriyama's decision if it applied to all three continuities.

I’ve always thought that line was supposed to be just an excuse to make Goku transform. The usual Boo Saga statements aside, Goku can’t be weaker than Freeza and stronger than Gohan and Gotenks at the same time.

That's kinda what I mean. That's another one out of several different attempts to discredit it. I have a feeling that wouldn't be done if it implied the opposite since less direct implications that do imply the opposite are treated as holding more weight.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Something important to remember: unless you're a Japanese person reading it in Japanese well-versed in Japanese idioms, cultural implications, etc., you'll never be able to fully understand the exact context.

That's actual fact.

Everything else, all our discussions? Not fact. We're all interpreting, and most of the time none of us are really anymore right/wrong than the other unless someone is spewing legitimate misinformation that is completely opposite to what's very obvious, and we hardly ever have those.

[Mr Baggins]

I can assure you we both have the evidence to lead to this conclusion, but there’s just no point in bringing it up when knowing the usual excuses for it.

There's all the reason in the world to bring it up if you feel it's the lesser discussed part of this topic, despite whatever "excuse" you're anticipating from others here. I would encourage it because that's how discussions should work; don't you think it's more productive to cover the examples that you believe lend to your point, rather than do what the other guy is doing which is constantly attempting to shoot down valid counter-examples with flimsy reasoning like "Beerus didn't really mean what he explicitly said"? Seems like that would lead to a more engaging conversation, no?

I don't intend to argue about this anymore myself because I think Toriyama's present imagining of it is open and shut, but that would be my honest advice. It certainly would break up the monotony and circularity.

[ZombieVito]

If Beerus statement was wrong then it would have been corrected by the 3 other people there.

It never happened so it's a fact base Goku is weaker than Namek Freeza. No matter how much it screws up with your previous interpretations of the series.

For a lot of years I always denied Piccolo being weaker than Shin. Giving up excuses like "Oh he simply decided to forfeit because of Kami". At some point you have to realize that your interpretations are just that, fan interpretations and are no way superior than the statements made by the author. You have to learn to accept that.

[Goku9001]

If Beerus statement was wrong then it would have been corrected by the 3 other people there.

It never happened so it's a fact base Goku is weaker than Namek Freeza. No matter how much it screws up with your previous interpretations of the series.

For a lot of years I always denied Piccolo being weaker than Shin. Giving up excuses like "Oh he simply decided to forfeit because of Kami". At some point you have to realize that your interpretations are just that, fan interpretations and are no way superior than the statements made by the author. You have to learn to accept that.

What convinced you that Piccolo was weaker?

[Goku9001]

I can assure you we both have the evidence to lead to this conclusion, but there’s just no point in bringing it up when knowing the usual excuses for it.

There's all the reason in the world to bring it up if you feel it's the lesser discussed part of this topic, despite whatever "excuse" you're anticipating from others here. I would encourage it because that's how discussions should work; don't you think it's more productive to cover the examples that you believe lend to your point, rather than do what the other guy is doing which is constantly attempting to shoot down valid counter-examples with flimsy reasoning like "Beerus didn't really mean what he explicitly said"? Seems like that would lead to a more engaging conversation, no?

I don't intend to argue about this anymore myself because I think Toriyama's present imagining of it is open and shut, but that would be my honest advice. It certainly would break up the monotony and circularity.

Why would I bring up examples when you're so adamant about the example you are providing? Wouldn't it be more productive to address your example first before providing examples of my own? Otherwise, it's fruitless. Simply put, I asked for the sources that substantiate your claim and you've only brought up the Battle of Gods statement which I already addressed. I agree, flimsy reasoning.

[Skar]

For a lot of years I always denied Piccolo being weaker than Shin. Giving up excuses like "Oh he simply decided to forfeit because of Kami". At some point you have to realize that your interpretations are just that, fan interpretations and are no way superior than the statements made by the author. You have to learn to accept that.

I used to think the same thing. I remember Herms explaining the context was Goku asking about his opponent's strength so it makes sense Piccolo meant that Shin was stronger than him. I don't mind accepting what guidebooks say unless they're contradicted by Toriyama later since those details weren't clear at the time. The main site points outToriyama had little to know involvement in the guidebooks so it seems whoever compiled them was filling in the blanks with their own interpretation. It's likely why some guidebooks contradict each other occasionally so they're very released by the same studio but not probably compiled by the same person each time.

I used to be against the multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3 because they only appeared in the SEG and not reprinted in another guidebook. Also that the numbers seem somewhat random and why not the same for both transformations. Nothing really contradicts them though. It's just feeling that SSJ2 could be more than 2x which isn't enough of a reason to argue it can't be just 2x. In the Buu saga, Vegeta called it the "SSJ wall" implying it was difficult to reach its power without breaking that wall so an exact number doesn't matter too much.

[ZombieVito]

I used to think the same thing. I remember Herms explaining the context was Goku asking about his opponent's strength so it makes sense Piccolo meant that Shin was stronger than him. I don't mind accepting what guidebooks say unless they're contradicted by Toriyama later since those details weren't clear at the time. The main site points outToriyama had little to know involvement in the guidebooks so it seems whoever compiled them was filling in the blanks with their own interpretation. It's likely why some guidebooks contradict each other occasionally so they're very released by the same studio but not probably compiled by the same person each time.

I used to be against the multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3 because they only appeared in the SEG and not reprinted in another guidebook. Also that the numbers seem somewhat random and why not the same for both transformations. Nothing really contradicts them though. It's just feeling that SSJ2 could be more than 2x which isn't enough of a reason to argue it can't be just 2x. In the Buu saga, Vegeta called it the "SSJ wall" implying it was difficult to reach its power without breaking that wall so an exact number doesn't matter too much.

Yeah, even Piccolo says the same line Tenshinhan uses way back in the Android arc to describe SS Goku. What Piccolo said is a power statement.

I'm fine using information from supplemental sources as long as they don't directly contradict what Toriyama says.

[Mr Baggins]

I don't mind accepting what guidebooks say unless they're contradicted by Toriyama later since those details weren't clear at the time.

That's how they were always intended to be read/consumed. It's insane just how many people seem to be completely unaware that 99% of the Daizenshuu is information recycled straight from the series and compiled into an encyclopedic format.

Only a minority of its total information is genuinely new; having revelatory info was never the sole purpose of the guides, though volumes 4 and 7 do the most in that regard. There's a reason that fans have only bothered to translate bits and pieces of it, some of which was later proven inaccurate anyway.

[Goku9001]

That's cool. Talk to people who only agree with your perspective. I love this place.

[Skar]

That's cool. Talk to people who only agree with your perspective. I love this place.

Which perspective do you mean? What was said about the Daizenshuu was pulled from the main site or a comment from the creators of the site. They're more informed than us so not many people have a reason to question them. I've changed several of my old opinions after reading their comments and articles on the site.

[Goku9001]

That's cool. Talk to people who only agree with your perspective. I love this place.

Which perspective do you mean? What was said about the Daizenshuu was pulled from the main site or a comment from the creators of the site. They're more informed than us so not many people have a reason to question them. I've changed several of my old opinions after reading their comments and articles on the site.

I'm talking about the one where we disagree on Base Goku < Frieza where a few posters are so adamant that they are correct that won't properly address anything the opposing side has to say. It makes it clear that this site is more interested in sharing the same opinion rather than facilitating any sort of intellectual discussion at all. I'm not referring to you since you've been responding to my posts, I'm referring to the few members that don't bother once I refute their claims.

[Skar]

I'm talking about the one where we disagree on Base Goku < Frieza where a few posters are so adamant that they are correct that won't properly address anything the opposing side has to say. It makes it clear that this site is more interested in sharing the same opinion rather than facilitating any sort of intellectual discussion at all. I'm not referring to you since you've been responding to my posts, I'm referring to the few members that don't bother once I refute their claims.

Well there's nothing left to be said since it comes down to whether or not you want to believe that line. You've given your reasons but no one was convinced that it should be dismissed, wrong, or doesn't apply anymore so they're probably agreeing to disagree. This is what Herms said about it for the DBS anime and he points out it's almost identical to what Beerus said in BoG:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 4614498309