New Simplistic Transformations Are Good, Actually

[LoganForkHands73]

I agree with most of this, I like most of the newer forms. One issue I have with Super Saiyan 4 is that it's treated as a character itself. Like when you see Bardock or Gohan using it in Heroes, it feels more like "Super Saiyan 4 with a bandana, Super Saiyan 4 with shorter hair", the form changes too much to see the character underneath. The newer forms definitely convey the sense that it's the same character but slightly different, rather than them turning into something unrecognisable. And yeah, I'm a simple man, I do like vibrant colours.

I also agree that there's rarely anything "lazy" about creating art, even when it seems on the surface to be quick and easy. A single shot in a movie can have hundreds of failed takes. That's not to say that artists shouldn't put any effort into what they do, though. Maybe Toriyama was a bit uninspired when designing Super Saiyan Blue (or maybe he toiled for hours figuring it out, we may never know), but the animators that brought it to life certainly weren't. EDIT: I'm not trying to police anyone's language here or whatever, I've been a bit preachy lately, but I'm from my perspective, I can definitely sympathise with an artist's frustration when someone calls them and their work "lazy", when they might've put years of effort into it for all we know.

However, I'm not sure about bringing morality into the question.

On paper, yeah, Super Saiyan God may be simpler design-wise, but is it really that much easier to draw or animate than Super Saiyan 4? I wouldn't say there's much of a difference, like I can't imagine it taking that much longer to bang out a SS4 drawing than a SS God. It's just a different design. In some ways, SS4 might be a little easier since it removes Goku's shirt (phwoar!) and all those pesky folds. The DBS: Broly movie had some lavish SS God shots with the burning aura, the flickering hair and fluttering gi that make it look waaaay more immaculate than SS4 in GT ever did. I'd say it's mostly relative, depending on the scale of the project.



What I'm asking is, are the creators really worse off just for drawing Super Saiyan 4? From what I can gather, most of the creators still like SS4 as much as fans do, hence why it still regularly appears in Heroes and tonnes of other media. If you go into the Fan Works Explosion thread, every single page has at least one SS4 picture, fans of all ages love drawing that form. How hard the form is to draw has probably never been the major issue with it, as far as I know.

A better example of a form that's difficult to draw in every medium is Super Saiyan 3. The long hair is so extra that the artists seem to avoid drawing it wherever possible, or only give it brief cameos outside of combat. It might be why Toriyama introduced the stamina issue, so he could justify phasing it out.

[Kaboom]

Does it really need to be clarified that saying "this DESIGN is lazy" is NOT saying or even implying that "drawing/animating is not a difficult job?"

When I say the former about something like SS Blue (and I stand by it), I'm not talking about the effort level involved in the physical act of drawing it. I'm talking about the amount of creativity and originality that went into conceiving it. Super Saiyan God, to make an example of it again, is incredibly quick and easy to draw, but unlike SSB it's still unique and not a "lazy" design. It's something that's genuinely new and not mistakable for anything that preceded it (even without screentones).

[Shaddy]

"Laziness" is an accusation about the intent of an artist which you couldn't possibly know. Even if you think something doesn't look good or fails to distinguish itself, that's not the same as saying that because of the way it looks, you can tell whoever made it wasn't actually trying.

[JulieYBM]

Not entirely sure I'm getting my points across below so I just wanted to make this little disclaimer right here.

I don't hate Blue, but it did feel lazy how it was just thrown in there with zero buildup, and it really is just Blue SS1 appearance wise. SS1 looked best on characters like Goku and Trunks, because it made their hair stand up more than normal.
.

My real problem with Blue is it retroactively cheapens Super Saiyan God. You don't need a ritual to surprass a Super Saiyan God? What was even the point? Vegeta never even became a Super Saiyan God. At least GT gave a good excuse for how Bulma helped him bypass level 3.

If it was written to be an intermediate form that does away with the ritual by not being as powerful (Super Saiyan Demigod) that would have been better but Bandai wouldn't allow the newest toy they were advertising to be weaker
than the old toy.

Design wise it's fine. If nothing else, the IP owners have done a great job at branding Super Saiyan Blue as the face of Dragon Ball Super.

I don't necessarily see why further acquisitions of Super Saiyan God need to be tied to the ritual. If ki is ultimately just a matter of sensing and meditating on understanding ki and how to better use it then I don't see why one can't do similar with understanding how to make one's own ki follow through in the same way as Gokuu's ki. I do think it was a poor choice on Toriyama and Yamamuro's part to not clarify how exactly Vegeta acquired Super Saiyan God, though. Heck, with the cartoon series adaption Series Director Chioka Masatoshi could have tried to explain it, too.

Does it really need to be clarified that saying "this DESIGN is lazy" is NOT saying or even implying that "drawing/animating is not a difficult job?"

I don't think it's asking too much to change how we speak about things that we're missing a lot of context for. The term lazy is such a dismissive and—I'm not trying to condescend with this next part I'm just struggling to find the right words—melodramatic term to use, though, especially considering the context that the word is typically applied to (i.e. ableist BS). I understand you personally not liking Blue but to then to express that as a definitive statement of "this is 'lazy' because it doesn't do what I want it to" is (I think!) a poor decision to make.

When I say the former about something like SS Blue (and I stand by it), I'm not talking about the effort level involved in the physical act of drawing it. I'm talking about the amount of creativity and originality that went into conceiving it. Super Saiyan God, to make an example of it again, is incredibly quick and easy to draw, but unlike SSB it's still unique and not a "lazy" design. It's something that's genuinely new and not mistakable for anything that preceded it (even without screentones).

But the point of God was to have those changes. The point of Blue is to be "Super Saiyan with the power of God", so matching Super Saiyan in design makes its own sense.

Again, I'm not even saying you can't like Blue, I'm just saying that 'lazy' really isn't an appropriate term to use and it places a judgment value on the creative work that we can't actually determine. How do we determine what is or isn't 'enough' creativity or originality?¹ Those seem entirely subjective, which in that case I wonder why not just say "I don't like Blue, I think it was a bad decision to stick to pre-established traits of other forms so much because x, y and z"?

¹Am I misunderstanding your argument here as being a definitive statement of fact rather than simply your personal taste?

[Kaboom]

But the point of God was to have those changes. The point of Blue is to be "Super Saiyan with the power of God", so matching Super Saiyan in design makes its own sense.

And doing that while also keeping some of Super Saiyan God's unique traits would make even more sense. On top of the color change and switching to SS1-shape hair, just keep SS God's visible pupils and noticeably skinny frame. Maybe even give it a uniquely-shaped aura for the sake of the black-and-white manga version of Super or zoomed-out shots where the eye details won't be visible. There, after a few super-obvious little tweaks, you now have something that actually looks like "a Super Saiyan version of Super Saiyan God" instead of just "color-swapped Super Saiyan."

I'm not looking to have vapid debates about how using the fully-appropriate descriptor of "lazy design" makes someone a meanie, or what does or doesn't constitute "creative enough," or what is or isn't just, like, my opinion, man. But I do know that simply re-coloring an existing design and trying to pass it off as a new one is the kind of thing that fan-designs have been getting relentlessly (and rightly) ridiculed for over the last 20+ years. It's not suddenly special when it comes from Toriyama instead of a 14-year-old with Paint Shop.

[NeverRamza]

A lot of the distaste for the simple transformations probably is based on the number of Saiayjin transformations getting excessive at this point and that power multiplier transformations that come at no cost are getting out of hand. It feels like a cheap way to get buzz and only adds to these issues where we get further and further away from technique having any sort of impact on the fights. This doesn't help with other aspects of Dragon Ball Super that feel watered down and safe.

[dbgtFO]

But the point of God was to have those changes. The point of Blue is to be "Super Saiyan with the power of God", so matching Super Saiyan in design makes its own sense.

And doing that while also keeping some of Super Saiyan God's unique traits would make even more sense. On top of the color change and switching to SS1-shape hair, just keep SS God's visible pupils and noticeably skinny frame. Maybe even give it a uniquely-shaped aura for the sake of the black-and-white manga version of Super or zoomed-out shots where the eye details won't be visible. There, after a few super-obvious little tweaks, you now have something that actually looks like "a Super Saiyan version of Super Saiyan God" instead of just "color-swapped Super Saiyan."

Indeed and nice drawing.
I mean I love SSB, because Blue is my favourite colour and Goku in Super Saiyan form is the best designed Super Saiyan ever, but I feel like to properly make this whole new God path stuff make sense, the look would necessarily have to be updated as well with what new design changes SSG brought to the table.

I always speculated, if this simply went against the wishes of those pulling the strings at Toei, Bandai or Shueisha. That they simply would not go with the skinnier design, because the jacked Goku could be deemed to be more popular?

As I recall there were actually art of Blueku and Bluegeta being skinnier than normal in the character sheets at the time of RoF's premiere and Toriyama's design for them leaned closer to SSG too(though it's Toriyama, so we can't be sure given his penchant for leaner designs no mather what).
And then there's also Toriyama's UI Goku, who is almost exactly the same as his SSG Goku, but the anime and games once again went with buffku instead...
It's funny to see how incredibly buff they are in FighterZ and while I can appreciate that on its own, the fact, that I feel they just did that to draw in people who look that kind of physique really drags it all down.

[Zephyr]

On top of the color change and switching to SS1-shape hair, just keep SS God's visible pupils and noticeably skinny frame. Maybe even give it a uniquely-shaped aura for the sake of the black-and-white manga version of Super or zoomed-out shots where the eye details won't be visible.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan does have a uniquely-shaped aura, though.

[Modern_Dingus]

A lot of the distaste for the simple transformations probably is based on the number of Saiayjin transformations getting excessive at this point and that power multiplier transformations that come at no cost are getting out of hand. It feels like a cheap way to get buzz and only adds to these issues where we get further and further away from technique having any sort of impact on the fights. This doesn't help with other aspects of Dragon Ball Super that feel watered down and safe.

This is especially prevalent with the newest arc in the manga and the movie.

Goku now has like 3 different states for U.I. ( 4 if you count the giant spirit form )

Vegeta's Ultra Ego is introduced and proceeds to get beaten 3 times

Frieza now just has another form

Gohan's new form isn't really hinted at in the new movie and just shows up because of vague "limit breaking"

[Lord Beerus]

I don't mind transformations that take a subtle approach in their aesthetic. Prime examples of this for me are Super Saiyan God and Ultra Instinct Sign. There are enough small details in how those forms look that provide them with their own identity, while also exemplifying the impact that transformation has on the user in terms of characterisation.

Super Saiyan God is a calm and pure-hearted form so Goku's body becomes slimmer, the colour of his aura as a Super Saiyan God is warm and inviting and his eyes are relaxed. Not ten mention there is lore and backstory to support the transformation itself to add some weight to its reveal in-universe. Ultra Instinct Sign is raw and incomplete but still requires a sense of tranquillity to access it, so Goku's hair becomes spiky and wild in some parts but still has a restrained and controlled aura surrounding him. And just like Super Saiyan God, there's good storytelling to support the form itself.

On the opposite side of the spectrum, Super Saiyan Blue makes no sense from an aesthetic standpoint and cheapens Super Saiyan God entirely as it visually bears no resemblance to what Super Saiyan God was, despite using its power. And even in the most fundamental of aspects, mixing red and yellow wouldn't produce blue in any circumstance. In other words, Super Saiyan Blue is a very transparent shortcut that was created not for symbolic and/or significant storytelling reasons but to give Ressurection F a shiny new form to promote the movie. It's cynical marketing 101.

Black Freeza suffer from the same issue and I think epitomizes everything wrong with modern Dragon Ball in how using uninspired transformation is now seen as a shortcut for character growth and plot development rather than supporting any themes regarding the narrative or the character themselves. I could digest Golden Freeza because its design was intentionally a tongue-in-cheek reference to Super Saiyan from an in-universe perspective, and it would be in Freeza's character to act that petty and vindictive to create a new transformation with that aesthetic. So why is Freeza's new form just Golden Freeza but now specifically with dark colours? What is Black Freeza supposed to represent for Freeza's character?

It's the same issue with Super Saiyan Rose and the complete Ultra Instinct form. The choice in the hair colour appears arbitrary and does not complement what represents the character who's undergoing the transformation or support any major themes relating to the story it's revealed in. Why did Goku Black choose pink for his form? Even though Toyotaro tries to handwave the aesthetic choice for Super Saiyan Rose in the manga, it still comes across as dumb and random. Why does mastering Ultra Instinct turn Goku's hair white? Does that happen for everyone? Or is it just because it's Goku?

Ultra Ego is another bad example. Not only was it unnecessary as a whole for Vegeta to go through any physical change as it lead to no significant change in how he fought, but there was no endgame for the form itself. It had no significant impact on the development of the plot, and all Vegeta did while using Ultra Ego for the entirety of Granoha The Survivor arc was get his ass stomped into the dirt, get back up, start mouthing off, and then get wrecked again. What good is all the strength Ultra Ego can provide if you have to obtain it through an ass beating that your body can’t handle? Ultra Ego just smacks of higher-ups wanting to give Vegeta something special to not look too inferior to Goku in the story to readers rather than actually compliment his character or support any themes in the story. Much Super Saiyan Blue Evolved in the anime version of the Tournament Of Power.

The nadir of thoughtless "simplistic" transformation has got to be Beast Gohan. Not only is the form hideously designed, but it completely negates any kind of character arc Toriyama was angling for Gohan to have in the Majin Boo arc because what was the point of Elder Kai unlocking all of his dormant power if he still has more power to tap into for a radically new transformation? It was obviously a transformation requested by the committee to pander to the fanbase and sell the DBS Superhero movie.

I'm not against simplistic approaches when it comes to transformations, but it has to mean something for the characters and the plot and not seem as though it's a haphazard effort at marketing.

[Zephyr]

I don't really see the issue with new realms of power being often depicted and communicated to the audience via visual changes to the characters. It can be an effective shorthand for showing a new level of strength, or how seriously a fight is being taken by a character. It's really just Goku's "tournament strength" and real strength given visual efficacy.

And even if the existence of a transformation is primarily motivated by cynical marketing and profits (as if the entire brand somehow isn't, and ever wasn't), things are capable of both satisfying shareholders and communicating narrative information. It's weird to see these things so often treated as mutually exclusive, as if a profit motive for the creation of art somehow negates its aesthetic qualities. If that was true, then under our current form of social and economic organization, nothing created would possess aesthetic merit, and that's obviously untrue.

I also don't think there's anything wrong with a transformation providing arbitrary visual changes. Arbitrary visual changes in Dragon Ball transformations is the norm. We could just as easily grill stuff from the original run. Why does Super Saiyan turn the user's hair gold? Why does Super Saiyan 3 cause the hair to grow so long and get rid of the user's eyebrows? Why does Super Saiyan 4 have red fur, black hair, and magical clothes? It just does. So I don't see anything wrong with SSGSS arbitrarily being blue, or Rose being pink, or Beast being silver.

Ultra Instinct turning the hair white arguably ties into it being a technique used by angels, beings with white hair. If I remember correctly, the manga turns this from subtext to text.

Ultra Ego feeds well enough into where Vegeta's longterm arc is likely headed: retirement. He's given up on the path that he and Goku were on, because he can't seem to pull it off as well as Goku is. So he's been trying to find different paths, and none of them are as good. This is how he becomes the man with cropped hair and a mustache.

Maybe Black Freeza is him taking an in-universe dig at Ultimate Gohan, or Ultra Instinct Sign. Give him a few more arcs, and he'll come out with Silver Freeza, now taking aim at Ultra Instinct and Beast.

One could take issue with Gohan having more strength to cultivate after the Elder Kaioshin's ritual, but you could just as easily take issue with he and Kuririn having more to cultivate after the Namekian Elder's. Or Goku having more room to grow after the Super God Water.

Honestly, the least creative thing about a lot of these new forms are the names. Golden Freeza, Orange Piccolo, Black Freeza, etc. About as uncreatively named as "Golden Ozaru" or "Super Saiyan 4".

[LoganForkHands73]

Indeed and nice drawing.
I mean I love SSB, because Blue is my favourite colour and Goku in Super Saiyan form is the best designed Super Saiyan ever, but I feel like to properly make this whole new God path stuff make sense, the look would necessarily have to be updated as well with what new design changes SSG brought to the table.

I always speculated, if this simply went against the wishes of those pulling the strings at Toei, Bandai or Shueisha. That they simply would not go with the skinnier design, because the jacked Goku could be deemed to be more popular?

As I recall there were actually art of Blueku and Bluegeta being skinnier than normal in the character sheets at the time of RoF's premiere and Toriyama's design for them leaned closer to SSG too(though it's Toriyama, so we can't be sure given his penchant for leaner designs no mather what).
And then there's also Toriyama's UI Goku, who is almost exactly the same as his SSG Goku, but the anime and games once again went with buffku instead...
It's funny to see how incredibly buff they are in FighterZ and while I can appreciate that on its own, the fact, that I feel they just did that to draw in people who look that kind of physique really drags it all down.

Yeah, people forget that Super Saiyan God was harshly criticised in by a vocal minority of fans and casuals alike. Some hated the puny look, some hated the fact that it wasn't another Super Saiyan 4 type design, some even accused it of being a bootleg Kaioken, lol. I think Super Saiyan Blue was part of a conscious effort to appease fans who weren't satisfied with SS God. It makes sense when you consider that the ROF movie was made to be pure fanservice for people who wanted more action and callbacks in BOG.

Looking back, I don't strongly disagree that Super Saiyan Blue might be a little lazily designed, but even if it is, that doesn't make it inherently bad IMO. There's an elegant simplicity to it which usually translates well on page and screen. There was always a high expectation of it to be this Big New Thing, but I'm not sure if Toriyama ever intended for it to be treated as such. I think he just intended Blue to be a logical next step in the evolution of God, not much different to the various Super Saiyan Grade XYZ forms from the Cell arc. Most of them didn't have much fanfare either.

I think Toriyama overall made the right call by keeping the fierce, angular look of Super Saiyan while mixing it with a chill palette and flickering godly aura. His rationale was that he wanted to portray a strong yet calm looking form, which communicates that the form is all about ki control. Toyotaro also invented the aura blobs to make it stand out more in the monochrome manga.

And yeah, I really wanted at least one Super Saiyan God fighter in FighterZ, just so we could have a bit of variation in the physiques. Bring in mid-match transformations, Arc Sys!

It's the same issue with Super Saiyan Rose and the complete Ultra Instinct form. The choice in the hair colour appears arbitrary and does not complement what represents the character who's undergoing the transformation or support any major themes relating to the story it's revealed in. Why did Goku Black choose pink for his form? Even though Toyotaro tries to handwave the aesthetic choice for Super Saiyan Rose in the manga, it still comes across as dumb and random. Why does mastering Ultra Instinct turn Goku's hair white? Does that happen for everyone? Or is it just because it's Goku?

Both of these are completely explainable, though. Super Saiyan Rose is caused by Goku Black having the soul of a Kai inside his Saiyan body. Maybe it's a bit of a handwave, but I think it makes more aesthetic sense than giving him Super Saiyan Blue. Goku Black is meant to be like a fake bootleg Goku (inspired by False Kamen Rider), he dresses and acts in a completely contrasting manner to the real Goku, so of course his SS Blue equivalent has to be a vain and girlish pink. There's also a little God of Destruction alcohol pun hidden away in there. As for Ultra Instinct, the silver hair reflects the Angels. Not much else to it.

[Lord Beerus]

It's the same issue with Super Saiyan Rose and the complete Ultra Instinct form. The choice in the hair colour appears arbitrary and does not complement what represents the character who's undergoing the transformation or support any major themes relating to the story it's revealed in. Why did Goku Black choose pink for his form? Even though Toyotaro tries to handwave the aesthetic choice for Super Saiyan Rose in the manga, it still comes across as dumb and random. Why does mastering Ultra Instinct turn Goku's hair white? Does that happen for everyone? Or is it just because it's Goku?

Both of these are completely explainable, though. Super Saiyan Rose is caused by Goku Black having the soul of a Kai inside his Saiyan body. Maybe it's a bit of a handwave, but I think it makes more aesthetic sense than giving him Super Saiyan Blue. Goku Black is meant to be like a fake bootleg Goku (inspired by False Kamen Rider), he dresses and acts in a completely contrasting manner to the real Goku, so of course his SS Blue equivalent has to be a vain and girlish pink. There's also a little God of Destruction alcohol pun hidden away in there. As for Ultra Instinct, the silver hair reflects the Angels. Not much else to it.

Oh shit. How did I not pick up on the wine wordplay for Super Saiyan Rose? Okay, I rescind my complaint about that transformation. That's actually pretty clever. Can't believe that pun went over my head for so long.

[DanielSSJ]

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan does have a uniquely-shaped aura, though.

Not in the manga it doesn't, which I think is what Kaboom was referring to. Toyotaro saves the full fancy plasma-aura for SSB Evolved (while also leaving out the other design changes the anime makes).

[Zephyr]

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan does have a uniquely-shaped aura, though.

Not in the manga it doesn't, which I think is what Kaboom was referring to. Toyotaro saves the full fancy plasma-aura for SSB Evolved (while also leaving out the other design changes the anime makes).

That's fair, but that's less a problem with the form itself (which was created for an anime film), and more with Toyble's presentation of it. Odd that the aura's shape is distinct in the color-filled medium it was designed for, but the person placing it in a black-and-white medium decided to replace that distinctly-shaped aura with something more stock. You'd think it'd be the other way around.

[Koitsukai]

I'm kinda torn about Black Freeza. I'm afraid he might look too similar to Frost, who looks awful with that grey-blue look, so I'll wait until I see it officially coloured (it would've been nice to have that one panel in colour, considering UE took like 3 months to have its official colours released)

So far, I like it, I like the name and what it represents, even though I'm not sure how it'll look, it works for me, purple and black are dark enough to give him a grim, scary look. I wasn't a fan of Golden Freeza, I know the purple stuff is Freeza's signature, but I wonder how it would've looked if only the purple stuff turned golden, or if he was fully golden.

[DanielSSJ]

That's fair, but that's less a problem with the form itself (which was created for an anime film), and more with Toyble's presentation of it. Odd that the aura's shape is distinct in the color-filled medium it was designed for, but the person placing it in a black-and-white medium decided to replace that distinctly-shaped aura with something more stock. You'd think it'd be the other way around.

In fairness, he does include a few plasma-y blobs floating around Goku and Vegeta (kinda like Super Saiyan 2 and 3's lightning), but the main aura is just the bog-standard spikey Super Saiyan aura.

[DiloVortexx]

oh hey i can pitch in my thoughts on this too as a character designer, neat!! so yeah i'm half and half on this as well : o

i really love the idea of the super saiyan god forms (and again like what previous members have said, the first form is interesting and different enough to not just be a palette swap! which is cool!!) but yea i do wish super saiyan blue/ssgss would've had some facial feature or overall body shape changes just like ssg because other than that its just a palette swap of regular super saiyan 1 form which is pretty.. Meh (ultra instinct's design is a bit better in this regard as the facial features are slightly changed and the eyes also have a bit more of a gloss to them which i really like but.. yeah it couldve been done much so much better even if they still keep it simple!)

super saiyan 4 (i wish it had a better name than just ss4 like yea primal super saiyan or just primal saiyan would fit better or a new name entirely ala thedevilscorpse's rewrite : o w/ hitozaru which is definitely a name i prefer for the form) is still a really cool design too as it gives a feral animalistic vibe which makes sense because of the form being an offshoot of the oozaru, which hell yea more oozaru love is good! but yes i do agree that sometimes it can be a bit hard to draw (haha muscle shapes) but its no less complicated than something like freeza's second and third forms or merged zamasu's corrupted form.. or hell just cell in general..
but it does make sense for them to go for more simpler designs in this modern era as 1. db has become a phenomenon in the mainstream again so that means more kids are watching the franchise once again and it would be nice having simpler forms that are easier for said kids to draw! (thats a good reason as to why pokemon has been having a major art style shift over the years as well) 2. simpler forms are also easier for animators to get into the flow working with as well! which is always good on them..

to delve a tiny bit into super hero spoilers a little only just for design stuff even tho the films been out for a bit now,

Spoiler:

i do think the new piccolo and gohan forms are good examples of differences in simplistic designs! piccolo looks a bit more angular than usual, showing that this form is more rageful + the raised antennae but still round enough that he has the god/nail fusion feel to him if that makes any sense? and then gohan is personally feel is a bit of a goofier design with the hair but i do like how 1. he has red eyes that call back to that kind of ss2 energy that the form has 2. even if the hair is Really Big the shape to it is pretty pleasing to look at (at least for me anyway)

they're both simple in their own ways and thats why i like them even tho i have my own ideas how i would do them like.. to be a bit more unique than pickle boy and rice lunch fella but they just got on the cover of vogue /j

their designs also work well with the style of super hero too imo so ig thats another reason why i like em..
but yes as a person who designs characters that are mix of complex and simple elements, i do wish dragon ball would do the same! like having the saiyan god forms be similar to the pre-existing super saiyan forms is super cool and all but like w/ ssg them having more interesting feature changes than just Hair Colour and Aura Effects makes them a lot more interesting in my eyes

[StevenPiccolo]

Agree with the topic title but only for superficial reasons. I just happen to like SSB (for Goku and Vegito) and Rose the most.
The concept behind most of the transformations are really good (SSJ4, UI, UE, SSG come to mind for me) but I just dislike the aesthetic execution. That's why I'm glad that SSB doesn't follow any internal logic with keeping the slim body and changed eyes from SSG. Those aren't crazy huge differences, especially when compared to stuff like SSJ3 or 4 maybe, but it wasn't a form I particularly enjoyed looking at.

When they inevitably have a new Saiyan transformation, I think it would be really cool to see another take on a primal form, though that would probably clash with the theme of Super being focused on godly power now maybe. Or more palette swaps, but changing the skin color instead to blue when Goku finally gets to angel levels of power and fights Beerus at his full strength. Something ridiculous like that would at least be entertaining.

[FPSSJ4_Goku]

But the point of God was to have those changes. The point of Blue is to be "Super Saiyan with the power of God", so matching Super Saiyan in design makes its own sense.

And doing that while also keeping some of Super Saiyan God's unique traits would make even more sense. On top of the color change and switching to SS1-shape hair, just keep SS God's visible pupils and noticeably skinny frame. Maybe even give it a uniquely-shaped aura for the sake of the black-and-white manga version of Super or zoomed-out shots where the eye details won't be visible. There, after a few super-obvious little tweaks, you now have something that actually looks like "a Super Saiyan version of Super Saiyan God" instead of just "color-swapped Super Saiyan."

I'm not looking to have vapid debates about how using the fully-appropriate descriptor of "lazy design" makes someone a meanie, or what does or doesn't constitute "creative enough," or what is or isn't just, like, my opinion, man. But I do know that simply re-coloring an existing design and trying to pass it off as a new one is the kind of thing that fan-designs have been getting relentlessly (and rightly) ridiculed for over the last 20+ years. It's not suddenly special when it comes from Toriyama instead of a 14-year-old with Paint Shop.

I know that this is a late reply, but is it okay if I redraw this?