Akira Toriyama getting cancelled (not really: contextless, disingenuous social media videos)

[Adamant]

On that same level, we can also criticize American culture and its shitty tendency to force itself and its norms and morals on other countries, and I think that's a pretty important discussion for Americans that say things like that to have before they do too much criticizing of others.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to criticize a culture for having some rather rigid and old fashioned social views. American culture is by no means free from criticism either,

No, and one thing American culture is being extremely widely criticized for is the tendency of Americans to police other countries and criticize them for things that aren't "like America" enough to their liking. I'm not going to have this conversation with you, but I think it would be extremely healthy for quite a number of people to seek out some heavily multinational communities and seeing what the world at large thinks of Americans and American culture, and what it criticizes them for, before engaging in too much more finger pointing.

[jjgp1112]

On that same level, we can also criticize American culture and its shitty tendency to force itself and its norms and morals on other countries, and I think that's a pretty important discussion for Americans that say things like that to have before they do too much criticizing of others.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to criticize a culture for having some rather rigid and old fashioned social views. American culture is by no means free from criticism either,

No, and one thing American culture is being extremely widely criticized for is the tendency of Americans to police other countries and criticize them for things that aren't "like America" enough to their liking. I'm not going to have this conversation with you, but I think it would be extremely healthy for quite a number of people to seek out some heavily multinational communities and seeing what the world at large thinks of Americans and American culture, and what it criticizes them for, before engaging in too much more finger pointing.

You keep doing this thing where you act like all Americans are a monolith who eat Jingoism for breakfast and shit red, white and blue. People on this corner of the internet know exactly what America is criticized for and guess what....we criticize them for it too! Especially someone like me who largely lives here because of this pleasant ol thing called the slave trade.

[JulieYBM]

On that same level, we can also criticize American culture and its shitty tendency to force itself and its norms and morals on other countries, and I think that's a pretty important discussion for Americans that say things like that to have before they do too much criticizing of others.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to criticize a culture for having some rather rigid and old fashioned social views. American culture is by no means free from criticism either,

No, and one thing American culture is being extremely widely criticized for is the tendency of Americans to police other countries and criticize them for things that aren't "like America" enough to their liking. I'm not going to have this conversation with you, but I think it would be extremely healthy for quite a number of people to seek out some heavily multinational communities and seeing what the world at large thinks of Americans and American culture, and what it criticizes them for, before engaging in too much more finger pointing.

What does any of this even mean? That people aren't allowed to criticize the poor decision-making of the multi-million dollar company and the millionaire comic artist for shitty decisions they made? Because if calling feminist criticism of art out-of-bounds all you have to contribute to discussion then you've contributed nothing at all.

The criticism has nothing to do with being 'like America' because America didn't invent the concept of not making creepy jokes about women in the context of a kids' comic.

Also, I have nothing plesant to say about the US.

[MasenkoHA]

On that same level, we can also criticize American culture and its shitty tendency to force itself and its norms and morals on other countries, and I think that's a pretty important discussion for Americans that say things like that to have before they do too much criticizing of others.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to criticize a culture for having some rather rigid and old fashioned social views. American culture is by no means free from criticism either,

No, and one thing American culture is being extremely widely criticized for is the tendency of Americans to police other countries and criticize them for things that aren't "like America" enough to their liking. I'm not going to have this conversation with you, but I think it would be extremely healthy for quite a number of people to seek out some heavily multinational communities and seeing what the world at large thinks of Americans and American culture, and what it criticizes them for, before engaging in too much more finger pointing.

The irony of accusing people of living in a bubble when you think no one in America who criticizes shit from other countries doesn't also criticize America.

[Lord Beerus]

Lady Red is indeed a terrible comic with grossly sexist undertones, that can certainly be picked apart for its unfortunate implications. Unfortunately, a common thread I've picked up when I see videos like this on YouTube is they are usually in bad faith, lack context and are quite disingenuous when discussing the nuance surrounding the very sensitive subject they want to discuss.

The line about wanting to peep on his daughter is quite creepy, but nothing that warrants a psychological analysis. It's just a very, very, bad joke.

From what I've seen, the only way to almost guarantee you lose your social status in Japan is to get involved with serious drugs (whether its usage or possession). Japan take that shit VERY seriously.

[Adamant]

You're missing the point. It's not about whether this or that culture should be criticized, but about whether or not Americans should criticize other cultures WHILE engaging in the exact thing everyone else are heavily criticizing YOU for (policing other countries and culture).

And no, you're clearly not criticizing American culture for this, nor do you seem very aware of how much everyone dislikes you for it. Again, try seeking out international communities to learn what the rest of the world thinks of you. It'd be healthy for you.

[Shaddy]

You're missing the point. It's not about whether this or that culture should be criticized, but about whether or not Americans should criticize other cultures WHILE engaging in the exact thing everyone else are heavily criticizing YOU for (policing other countries and culture).

And no, you're clearly not criticizing American culture for this, nor do you seem very aware of how much everyone dislikes you for it. Again, try seeking out international communities to learn what the rest of the world thinks of you. It'd be healthy for you.

But nobody is policing Japan or Japanese culture here. They're criticizing the rape comic. Why do you think the rape comic is fundamental to Japanese culture? Why is it not in someone's right to think it's fucked up just because they're Americans?

[Zephyr]

On that same level, we can also criticize American culture and its shitty tendency to force itself and its norms and morals on other countries, and I think that's a pretty important discussion for Americans that say things like that to have before they do too much criticizing of others.

Sounds like a fun whataboutism.

[MasenkoHA]

Wild, it's almost like there's no need to engage in what aboutisms regarding America when the topic was about a Japanese author living in Japan? If I was in discussion about shitty things America let's fly (which there are plenty, obviously) someone trying to pull the "Yeah but in Japan they..." card would look just as stupid.

"You're not criticizing America for what it does"


That's what I have Twitter for bud

[Adamant]

You're really failing to see the point here. What you should be asking is "Am I, a person from a culture that's heavily heavily criticized for its constant policing of other cultures, really the right person to be engaging in criticizing of other cultures if I want the reaction to be anything other than 'Shut the fuck up with your policing already'?" Maybe let someone with a bit more goodwill than you handle it if it's something you have reason to assume non-Americans agree with you on?

And yes, I'm speaking in general, not about any particular topic here.

"But I criticize America too".
You're clearly NOT regularly criticizing American culture for this, you don't seem particularly aware that this is something your culture is being heavily criticized for, and you don't seem particularly willing to reflect on the criticism once you're told about it.

Again, seek out and engage with international communities, learn what you're commonly criticized for, and take it to heart. It's healthy.

I'm out.

[VegettoEX]

Again, seek out and engage with international communities,

This is literally what we're doing here, though.

[Geraldo]

WTF did I just read?! It makes me want to throw up. Saw that manga; rape is not funny.

[Adamant]

Again, seek out and engage with international communities,

This is literally what we're doing here, though.

No, I mean seek out communities from other countries where you are the only, or one of the only, American(s) and ask what people in these countries think of America and Americans and what some common criticisms of your culture is.

[Shaddy]

You're really failing to see the point here. What you should be asking is "Am I, a person from a culture that's heavily heavily criticized for its constant policing of other cultures, really the right person to be engaging in criticizing of other cultures if I want the reaction to be anything other than 'Shut the fuck up with your policing already'?" Maybe let someone with a bit more goodwill than you handle it if it's something you have reason to assume non-Americans agree with you on?

But this isn't a thread about Japanese culture, it's a thread about the rape comic. Why do you keep implying that the rape comic is tantamount to Japanese culture in general? Why are people only allowed to criticize the rape comic if they belong to one of your personal preapproved communities?

And yes, I'm speaking in general, not about any particular topic here.

Well no you're not, you're leaving this reply in the thread about the rape comic. You only ranted about "American morals" because people were criticizing the rape comic.

I'm out.

Apparently not.

[jjgp1112]

You're really failing to see the point here. What you should be asking is "Am I, a person from a culture that's heavily heavily criticized for its constant policing of other cultures, really the right person to be engaging in criticizing of other cultures if I want the reaction to be anything other than 'Shut the fuck up with your policing already'?" Maybe let someone with a bit more goodwill than you handle it if it's something you have reason to assume non-Americans agree with you on?

But this isn't a thread about Japanese culture, it's a thread about the rape comic. Why do you keep implying that the rape comic is tantamount to Japanese culture in general? Why are people only allowed to criticize the rape comic if they belong to one of your personal preapproved communities?

He was responding specifically to eledoremassis02:

I dont quite understand your last sentince so I appoligize if somthing I write sounds like its not a direct response.

It's not (just) Otaku subculture. Manga has a vastly broader consumer base than Anime in japan and thus comments like this were not only read by kids but also adults. The fact this behavior was seen as far as 1998, as well as other actions against women even later into the 2000s and only have been acted on recently. Now this is not to say everyone in Japan would be cool with these comments but the fact Toriyama was comfortable enough to say it in a printed interveiw in one Japan top weekly magazines speaks volumes (no pun intended).

GTO is very much drenched in Japanese culture dialogue (both the Manga and TV Drama). The main character is a push against that culture, its the core of his character.

We can criticize Japanese culture, I think thats fine. I mean 奥さん (wife) basically translate to "deep within the house" so that, culturally, shows how women are seen in Japan (though thats slowly changing) and I think there is a good discussion around that.

Again, I suggest you read that book. It gave me a much broader understanding about (pre-western wave) manga and its demographics and production.

[jjgp1112]

Again, seek out and engage with international communities,

This is literally what we're doing here, though.

No, I mean seek out communities from other countries where you are the only, or one of the only, American(s) and ask what people in these countries think of America and Americans and what some common criticisms of your culture is.

Again, you seem to just be painting every American with a broad brush. Are you not also "policing another country's culture" too?

Critiquing another country doesn't automatically become some form of cultural imperialism just because it comes from a person that happens to live in America.

[Zephyr]

You're really failing to see the point here. What you should be asking is "Am I, a person from a culture that's heavily heavily criticized for its constant policing of other cultures, really the right person to be engaging in criticizing of other cultures if I want the reaction to be anything other than 'Shut the fuck up with your policing already'?" Maybe let someone with a bit more goodwill than you handle it if it's something you have reason to assume non-Americans agree with you on?

I think you're failing to communicate the point. What is actually meant by "policing"? What is meant by "forcing" norms and morals on other countries? The US military might have the ability to force things upon other countries, but private citizens posting on a message board sure don't.

Maybe you just mean "voicing critical opinions about other cultures"? "Americans are well known for criticizing other cultures". I guess that's similar to "men are well known for explaining things to women who already know well enough the thing being explained". Mainsplaining, but instead its with regards to national social dynamics rather than gender social dynamics? A "holy shit, we get it, just stay in your lane already"? In that sense, I could see your point as a "be mindful that even though you are an individual with a valid point of view, you don't need to voice it at every turn, give other people the chance to contribute their voice as well".

[Cursed Lemon]

Well that's all gross as fuck to be sure

When someone has one of these kinds of things attached to their history, I ask the following question: what kind of energy has this person been putting out into the world since that incident? For example, Stone Cold Steve Austin had an incident of domestic violence somewhere around the turn of the millennium. Since that happened, has he repeated this behavior? Has he gone on to become a Steve Crowder-esque social media personality and downplay what he did? Is he just a raging cockbite in general? In Austin's case, he has shown to be a very gracious personality without a bad word to say about anyone and hasn't, as far as I'm aware, established a pattern of negative behavior.

I want to view Toriyama as kind of a dim bulb and a product of the 80s. As far as I'm aware, the sketchy shit he's done has all come from one particular time period.

[Kunzait_83]

You're missing the point. It's not about whether this or that culture should be criticized, but about whether or not Americans should criticize other cultures WHILE engaging in the exact thing everyone else are heavily criticizing YOU for (policing other countries and culture).

Random Person: "Murder is horrible! It should remain illegal and heavily penalized! No one deserves to be violently killed by someone!"

Adamant (apparently): "You have no right to say that, because where you're from some people still get murdered! If a single person gets killed in the country you're from, you don't get to say that murder is bad until your country stops doing it entirely and has a 0% murder rate!"

And no, you're clearly not criticizing American culture for this, nor do you seem very aware of how much everyone dislikes you for it. Again, try seeking out international communities to learn what the rest of the world thinks of you. It'd be healthy for you.

Who exactly is the "you" that you're aiming this at in this thread? And what exactly is it about this person specifically that makes you feel that you have special insight into them and their political views enough to know that they aren't criticizing America's vast myriad of hypocrisies adequately enough to your liking?

More broadly than that even, what precisely is the threshold that an American has to pass in order to be granted permission by the "international community" (whom you seem to represent here as an ambassador) to say that something fucked up that another country is doing is in fact fucked up?

And yes, myself along with PLENTY of people who post in this forum who are Americans are more than beyond well aware of A) America's hypocrisies and faults, and B) what the rest of the world thinks of America (i.e. it doesn't think particularly well of us, and deservedly so in many if not most cases) and have discussed this topic to death and beyond elsewhere in our lives.

NONE OF THAT however means that we are forevermore banned from saying that someone - not even another country as a whole in this case, since this thread has largely been focused overwhelmingly on Toriyama as an individual and not on Japanese culture and society as a whole (which Toriyama does not in any way represent or embody, anymore than you Adamant represent or embody "the international community", nor does any random person in this thread who happens to be from America represent or embody America) - making light of sexual assault or rape in a particularly tactless or tasteless way is kind of fucked up.

This thread: "Kind of messed up that Toriyama said some shitty things about rape and sexual harassment in one of his manga and in an interview back in the day."

U.N. Ambassador Adamant: "Yeah but you're from America and America has done tons of fucked up stuff, so since you're from America you don't ever get to say that anything that anyone ever says or does who happens to be from another country is fucked up!"

No, I mean seek out communities from other countries where you are the only, or one of the only, American(s) and ask what people in these countries think of America and Americans and what some common criticisms of your culture is.

What exactly is it about what was said in this random thread about some shitty, awful things Toriyama said about sexual assault 30+ years ago that leads you to blanket assume that people in this thread haven't already done exactly that at some point in their lives?

You're really failing to see the point here. What you should be asking is "Am I, a person from a culture that's heavily heavily criticized for its constant policing of other cultures, really the right person to be engaging in criticizing of other cultures if I want the reaction to be anything other than 'Shut the fuck up with your policing already'?" Maybe let someone with a bit more goodwill than you handle it if it's something you have reason to assume non-Americans agree with you on?

I think you're failing to communicate the point. What is actually meant by "policing"? What is meant by "forcing" norms and morals on other countries? The US military might have the ability to force things upon other countries, but private citizens posting on a message board sure don't.

This is also an outstanding point that needs to be stressed: there is a VAST gulf between what the American government and military does versus what the average random American citizen does or thinks. This is true of just about EVERY/any nation, not just the U.S.

The U.S. government engaging in horrific practices in its foreign affairs (which it certainly has) is a far, FAR cry from some randos out in the wilds (who might just happen to be regular American citizens) saying "Hey maybe this Toriyama guy should take rape and sexual assault a bit more seriously." And if that's what Adamant had in mind when he started down this ridiculous path of logic, then his conflating these two things so closely together is... more than kind of nutso honestly.

Random American Otaku on a Random Anime Forum saying that Random Japanese Manga Author should take rape more seriously has literally ZERO connection or correlation whatso-fucking-ever with "the U.S. government and military overly polices other struggling nations for unscrupulous/shady purposes, and the international community justifiably resents it for that".

Again, this is bordering on unhinged levels of connecting things that have almost zero connection to one another whatsoever (assuming that this is the place where Adamant was coming from that is: and I think/hope it wasn't).

Maybe you just mean "voicing critical opinions about other cultures"? "Americans are well known for criticizing other cultures". I guess that's similar to "men are well known for explaining things to women who already know well enough the thing being explained". Mainsplaining, but instead its with regards to national social dynamics rather than gender social dynamics? A "holy shit, we get it, just stay in your lane already"? In that sense, I could see your point as a "be mindful that even though you are an individual with a valid point of view, you don't need to voice it at every turn, give other people the chance to contribute their voice as well".

This is probably the more likely and charitable interpretation of where Adamant is coming from: but without a FUCKTON more nuance (and frankly by just applying this complaint to something even just a hairline more connected and sane than another "Toriyama had/has some shitty takes on sexual assault" thread), I reject even that framing as being in any way justifiable to a thread like this one.

Again, see above for why I think this: an individual person's country or culture engaging in hypocritically fucked up shit doesn't ban or invalidate that individual person (especially if they themselves disagree with and argue against their own country/culture's bullshit) from saying that another individual person (who happens to be from another country or culture) said or did some shitty, awful stuff.

I cannot stress this point enough: Toriyama does not embody or represent Japan or Japanese society, the rando American posters in this thread do not embody or represent America or American society, and Adamant does not embody or represent the broader international community.

[Adamant]

Maybe you just mean "voicing critical opinions about other cultures"? "Americans are well known for criticizing other cultures". I guess that's similar to "men are well known for explaining things to women who already know well enough the thing being explained". Mainsplaining, but instead its with regards to national social dynamics rather than gender social dynamics? A "holy shit, we get it, just stay in your lane already"? In that sense, I could see your point as a "be mindful that even though you are an individual with a valid point of view, you don't need to voice it at every turn, give other people the chance to contribute their voice as well".

Sure. Call it "Americasplaining" if you want, that's catchy.

As I said, I'm not here to have a discussion about Americasplaining to you. I'm just saying you're engaging in it, it's in general not appreciated, and you should probably be a bit more aware of it. My suggestion has always been for you to seek out other communities where you're the only American and have your discussions about Americasplaining there, rather than acting like the one person telling you about it in an American-heavy community is the only person that feels this way.

Kunzait, I don't want to have this conversation because I DON'T want to present myself as an ambassador. That's why I said to seek out international communities so you can have it with hundreds of others and learn what they think about this subject, both individually and commonly as a group.