Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GatoF]

Is it implied in the movie that Gohan lost his touch?

Initially Piccolo thought Gohan got weak again, but Gohan stopped his punch all cocky "I didn't let myself go" only for Piccolo to hit him anyway.

Which means Gohan DID keep training, but not as much as he could, and was a little rusty, at least his fighting instinct.
him training Makankosappo might have had a part in it: there are only so many hours in the day after all.


Like, he was 80% of his ToP self. But once he got serious because Pan, he went straight back to ToP level.



...now I think about it. I wonder if Cell MAX's soul was killed by Gohan's makankosappo.

• Potential Unleashed Piccolo and MVP-17: about Base Blue.
• Gamma-1: between Base Blue and Complete Blue\Blue KKx10.
• Gamma-2: stronger than Gamma-1 but not Complete Blue strong.
• Ultimate Gohan: about Complete Blue\Blue KK x10
• Piccolo Orange: somehow stronger than Ultimate Gohan
• Gohan Beast: Broly. Because, c'mon, the comparison is obvious.

I like this breakdown of the SSB tier.
I would put Orange Piccolo beyond SSBx20 and SSBE, considering how Z LSSBroly-like he was against Gamma 1.

Dunno, remember that Toriyama usually is always "even 20% power difference means complete domination".

I wouldn't say he was TWICE as powerful as Ultimate Gohan.

Ultimate Gohan could barely deal with Gamma 1 while Gamma 2 couldn't even move or hurt Orange Piccolo. Ultimate Gohan is nothing to Orange Piccolo. Piccolo is in a different tier

[Koitsukai]

Dunno, remember that Toriyama usually is always "even 20% power difference means complete domination".

I wouldn't say he was TWICE as powerful as Ultimate Gohan.

Can't agree here. Orange Piccolo gave me Broly-SSB Goku/Vegeta vibes, just standing there being an immovable object and burying Gamma 2 into the ground with one blow. And even Broly wasn't just standing still, their punches were ineffective but were able to make him budge, at least a bit, and that was a 10-50x gap.
I don't see anybody pulling a Broly with less than a 10x gap, not even SS2 Gohan was completely still against Perfect Cell's FP.

It even gave Z Broly vibes too, Gamma 2 was completely outclassed, it made me think of Krilin vs Perfect Cell, too.

[Xeogran]

It even gave Z Broly vibes too, Gamma 2 was completely outclassed, it made me think of Krilin vs Perfect Cell, too.

Ssshh... Super Android 13. That scene was based off him

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Dunno, remember that Toriyama usually is always "even 20% power difference means complete domination".

I wouldn't say he was TWICE as powerful as Ultimate Gohan.

Can't agree here. Orange Piccolo gave me Broly-SSB Goku/Vegeta vibes, just standing there being an immovable object and burying Gamma 2 into the ground with one blow. And even Broly wasn't just standing still, their punches were ineffective but were able to make him budge, at least a bit, and that was a 10-50x gap.
I don't see anybody pulling a Broly with less than a 10x gap, not even SS2 Gohan was completely still against Perfect Cell's FP.

It even gave Z Broly vibes too, Gamma 2 was completely outclassed, it made me think of Krilin vs Perfect Cell, too.

I concur. DBS has emphasized that power differences can be made up for a bit more with skill and knowledge of an opponent, at least to a degree. You need to have a serious power advantage to be able to simply tank an opponent's attacks without budging nowadays.

Definitely looking at more of an equivalent to KKx20, Blue Evolution, or even Super Saiyan Ikari Broly, at least if the Gammas and Ultimate Gohan and Piccolo are meant to be sitting at around the level of SSB Goku and Vegeta.

[Mr Baggins]

Of course, I don't think Shenron could simply give Piccolo a form.

The novel says that he does, but also mentions that the symbol of light on Orange Piccolo's back depicts "Ajisa", the trees of Namek.

Recall that Shenron (and every wish-granting dragon) is fundamentally connected to the Namekians, so he could probably bestow that form specifically because Piccolo is of Namekian heritage.

[ankokudaishogun]

Ultimate Gohan could barely deal with Gamma 1 while Gamma 2 couldn't even move or hurt Orange Piccolo. Ultimate Gohan is nothing to Orange Piccolo. Piccolo is in a different tier

Not really: Gohan was in complete control of his fight with Gamma-1. Once he decided to end the fight, he defeated him easily.

[ZombieVito]

Ultimate Gohan could barely deal with Gamma 1 while Gamma 2 couldn't even move or hurt Orange Piccolo. Ultimate Gohan is nothing to Orange Piccolo. Piccolo is in a different tier

Not really: Gohan was in complete control of his fight with Gamma-1. Once he decided to end the fight, he defeated him easily.

Gohan never defeated Gamma 1.

[Goku9001]

Gohan had the edge which started to shrink gradually because Gamma 1's superior stamina (or something along those lines based on what he said) to the point where Gohan had a very slight upper hand. I would say Ultimate Gohan was the victor since Gamma 1 was hunched back. It was never a decisive win.

Of course, I don't think Shenron could simply give Piccolo a form.

The novel says that he does, but also mentions that the symbol of light on Orange Piccolo's back depicts "Ajisa", the trees of Namek.

Recall that Shenron (and every wish-granting dragon) is fundamentally connected to the Namekians, so he could probably bestow that form specifically because Piccolo is of Namekian heritage.

Wow, there's a novelization of Super Hero? That does make sense. Are there already translations of it available?

[Skar]

Yeah, that's something that's been going on for a while now with DBS.
Gohan, 17, even Buu had the potential to do much more than SSG. And in the anime, it's implied, literally, every U6 participant can do that, and also Future Trunks.
FWIT, Gohan in the manga needed more than just a day to become relevant again, it seems he had been training for the most part of DBS, making it a little less dumb. The anime made it look as easy as washing your dirty car.

Piccolo had the potential but had to pull a Granola to get there. I guess he had not been training correctly, because he's been training for years straight and his gains were barely noticeable. Solo training really is useless after a certain point, only during the Moro arc, after working with Gohan, he seemed to be helpful again.

Yeah I thought it was a little weird at first but that's what the story is presenting. The story accounts for why Goku and Vegeta only achieved these forms now because Beerus introduced SSJG and they trained with Whis. All the returning characters who caught up with a few arcs worth of powerups in a short time did it without God Ki. Beast Gohan was similar to SSJRage for Trunks since it's a half-Saiyan exclusive rage form that reached God tier in normal ki. Piccolo was similar to Granolah and Gas' wishes except he didn't have to sacrifice anything to get that strong. It makes me wonder how powerful Piccolo would've been if he did exchange some of his lifespan.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Yeah, that's something that's been going on for a while now with DBS.
Gohan, 17, even Buu had the potential to do much more than SSG. And in the anime, it's implied, literally, every U6 participant can do that, and also Future Trunks.
FWIT, Gohan in the manga needed more than just a day to become relevant again, it seems he had been training for the most part of DBS, making it a little less dumb. The anime made it look as easy as washing your dirty car.

Piccolo had the potential but had to pull a Granola to get there. I guess he had not been training correctly, because he's been training for years straight and his gains were barely noticeable. Solo training really is useless after a certain point, only during the Moro arc, after working with Gohan, he seemed to be helpful again.

Yeah I thought it was a little weird at first but that's what the story is presenting. The story accounts for why Goku and Vegeta only achieved these forms now because Beerus introduced SSJG and they trained with Whis. All the returning characters who caught up with a few arcs worth of powerups in a short time did it without God Ki. Beast Gohan was similar to SSJRage for Trunks since it's a half-Saiyan exclusive rage form that reached God tier in normal ki. Piccolo was similar to Granolah and Gas' wishes except he didn't have to sacrifice anything to get that strong. It makes me wonder how powerful Piccolo would've been if he did exchange some of his lifespan.

Considering how Piccolo could live for a few centuries easily, he could very easily grow monstrously strong in power if the "exchange rate" was relatively equal.

[Mr Baggins]

Are there already translations of it available?

Not that I know of. Like with Broly, I believe only small bits and pieces were translated/commented on.

I found the Ajisa part to be the most interesting tidbit, though. The crest was also mentioned to represent Namekian pride.

[BWri]

I think Piccolo being fused with Nail is what gives him the edge now. I assume Kattatsu's son (Kami+Pickle) wouldn't have a potential as high as SSB, and neither would Nail, only their "fusion" does.

Years back, the big Piccolo theory was that Nail's potential being unlocked was slowly activated in Piccolo too during the 3 year time skip which is what allowed him to catch up to the Super Saiyans. A simpler explanation of that is what you mentioned, that simply fusing with Nail gave Piccolo a huge boost in potential and growth rate. The Super anime uses this logic for the universe 6 Namekians as it takes their fusion a while to "settle". It's a similar logic as used with Krillin after his potential was unlocked on Namek, at least according to the guides.

I also believe all of his past training was like built up inside of him, waiting to be unlocked somehow. For instance, I doubt his unlocked potential back in BoG or Buu arc, would've made him this strong.

I think Potential Unlocked makes him about as strong as manga Piccolo in the Moro arc.

But this is interesting. There's some who believe movie Piccolo is still about as strong as Semi-Cell. If so, then how strong would his potential unlock power (Yellow form) be in the Buu saga?

[Geraldo]

There's some who believe movie Piccolo is still about as strong as Semi-Cell. If so, then how strong would his potential unlock power (Yellow form) be in the Buu saga?

Piccolo had surpassed Perfect Cell by the time of the Universe 6 arc. Not only that, he should be at least three times stronger than Super Buu to preform how he did against moro, who was afraid from his self-destruction.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Between RoF and SH Piccolo really doesn’t look any different, weaker than a SSJ Gohan. The series fills us in with his feats on both tournaments, but they’re also very uncertain. All I can say for sure is that he’s between whatever the Base Saiyans are at post SBG retcon and below Ultimate Gohan.

I think Boo Saga Orange Piccolo would be somewhat below Super Boo. Ultimate Piccolo could be SSJ3 Goku level or more since SSJ3 was also conceived as a potential unlock form, and Orange is greatly above that.

[Berserker1921]

How strong do you think everyone is compared to Beerus at this point. In your opinion, what percentage of power would these fighters compare to Beerus?

Ex: TUI Goku =40%

1. TUI Goku
2. Beast Gohan
3. UE Vegeta
4. Broly
5. Black Frieza
6. Orange Piccolo

[BWri]

There's some who believe movie Piccolo is still about as strong as Semi-Cell. If so, then how strong would his potential unlock power (Yellow form) be in the Buu saga?

Piccolo had surpassed Perfect Cell by the time of the Universe 6 arc. Not only that, he should be at least three times stronger than Super Buu to preform how he did against moro, who was afraid from his self-destruction.

Don't get me wrong, I think Piccolo is plenty strong, especially post-RoF. I believe I was the first one here to point out all of his feats in the Moro arc and put him over #17. I do believe that the movie scaling is different from the manga though. Movie Piccolo is probably between SSJ and SSJ2 tier in base and probably 60-70% as strong as Ultimate Gohan in his Yellow Form.

I think Boo Saga Orange Piccolo would be somewhat below Super Boo. Ultimate Piccolo could be SSJ3 Goku level or more since SSJ3 was also conceived as a potential unlock form, and Orange is greatly above that.

Makes sense, though I'd put Orange higher than Super Buu. I was just thinking of how his various forms stack up to Gohan's. He seems to remain at about 60-70% of whatever equivalent form Gohan is using. Since his base is nebulous, I'm not sure which form of Gohan's it stacks up to but Orange seems to be about 60% of Beast and Yellow seems 60 - 70% of Ultimate judging by their performance vs. the Gammas and Cell Max.

[Koitsukai]

How strong do you think everyone is compared to Beerus at this point. In your opinion, what percentage of power would these fighters compare to Beerus?

Ex: TUI Goku =40%

1. TUI Goku
2. Beast Gohan
3. UE Vegeta
4. Broly
5. Black Frieza
6. Orange Piccolo

I'll try and tackle every big hitter.

1- Black Freeza, well over 90% (Should be noted, that I've been giving this percentage to Moro arc UI Goku, FPSS Broly, ToP UI Goku, FT arc SSB Vegito... and probably will give the same percentage to the next arc's strongest)
2- Broly (SH) 88%
3- Beast Gohan 88%
4- Old Gas 86%
5- TUI Goku 85%
6- Adult Gas 84%
7- UE Vegeta/Granola 83%
8- Merus/Moro/UI Goku 79%
9- Moro73 76%
10- Broly(DBS Br)/Jiren/Prime Moro 73%
11- Orange Piccolo 68%
12- SS Broly 67%
13- Saganbo, Kefla, Golden Freeza, Toppo 60-65%

Black Freeza should be damn close to Beerus, there's so many people crammed between Vermouth and Beerus that is starting to look like one of those pictures of indian trains. Freeza oneshots UE and TUI, who in turn would oneshot Moro73 who is stronger than Jiren who well everybody knows this song.

That giant blue Goku, who knows how strong it is. I guess close to or 90%, it seems to be the inaccessible wild card that puts Goku back on top or something.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So I just noticed SSJB Vegeta never fought SSJR Black in the manga at full power, Pre Rosat. He only got to fight SSJ Black, who apparently was just close enough to outlast him in terms of stamina and still get hurt enough to warrant another Zenkai. So how strong is SSJR Black supposed to be? Still weaker? Equal, since he’s using Goku’s body? Stronger? And what about Vegeta? Did he get stronger in the Rosat? Or did he just find a way to use SSJB better?

And talking about SSJB and SSJR, why did only Blue have stamina issues?

[ZombieVito]

So I just noticed SSJB Vegeta never fought SSJR Black in the manga at full power, Pre Rosat. He only got to fight SSJ Black, who apparently was just close enough to outlast him in terms of stamina and still get hurt enough to warrant another Zenkai. So how strong is SSJR Black supposed to be? Still weaker? Equal, since he’s using Goku’s body? Stronger? And what about Vegeta? Did he get stronger in the Rosat? Or did he just find a way to use SSJB better?

And talking about SSJB and SSJR, why did only Blue have stamina issues?

Didn't Trunks gave Vegeta a senzu after Black turned Rose? Also Vegeta had to get stronger in the RoSaT since he never used CSSB in the arc.

As for your last question: That's Toyotaro for you.

[Thani]

So I just noticed SSJB Vegeta never fought SSJR Black in the manga at full power, Pre Rosat. He only got to fight SSJ Black, who apparently was just close enough to outlast him in terms of stamina and still get hurt enough to warrant another Zenkai. So how strong is SSJR Black supposed to be? Still weaker? Equal, since he’s using Goku’s body? Stronger? And what about Vegeta? Did he get stronger in the Rosat? Or did he just find a way to use SSJB better?

And talking about SSJB and SSJR, why did only Blue have stamina issues?

Didn't Trunks gave Vegeta a senzu after Black turned Rose? Also Vegeta had to get stronger in the RoSaT since he never used CSSB in the arc.

As for your last question: That's Toyotaro for you.

No, that was briefly before Black turned Rosé. Goku gave Vegeta a senzu, he fought SS Black and was pushed back, Black transformed further into Rosé and then easily defeated Vegeta.