Another "What If Dragon Ball changed focus from Goku" thread, but with a twist

[LoganForkHands73]

The twist being, would you accept a Dragon Ball continuation following other EXISTING characters besides Goku, rather than a full-blown "brand new next generation" type of deal?

I've noticed that this forum is, very generally speaking, unusually resistant to the idea of Goku seceding the main protagonist role in any capacity compared to most other fan groups. For a long time, I partly agreed. I wasn't categorically against the idea of Goku being replaced, as I quite liked Gohan's very brief stint in the spotlight and I'm overall a "never say never" kinda guy, but I accepted that maybe it was best for the story to remain focused on Goku and his endless path to true strength.

But then I saw Super Hero and I've done a complete 180 on this position. Even as a huge Goku fan, I can't help but think it would be an enormous relief for him to remain in the background and let other characters take centre stage in future arcs and films. I'm not saying to totally get rid of him, but to limit his presence. Piccolo slid into the protagonist role so effortlessly in that movie, we got to see some brand new sides to his character, and I think that Toriyama has a real unsung talent for writing different kinds of heroes besides the unchanging "flat" archetype that describes Goku. Goku is always a safe option to cast as the hero, his motivation to grow stronger is eternally recyclable, but his appearance in Super Hero reveals how mind-numbingly stagnant and aimless his storyline currently is -- Toriyama appears to be quite self-aware of this, but is apparently determined to keep Goku and Vegeta in their limited status quo roles. Worse, he now writes Goku as such an exaggerated buffoon that he no longer understands the concept of meditation training. That's a bridge too far in my book.

So I say bring on more movies like Super Hero that focus on other characters. Dragon Ball has such a great supporting cast, it's easy to see why people crave for them to do more. What I was always wary of was just shoehorning the Z-Warriors into storylines where they don't have much purpose, but now the creators have shown a willingness to give characters like Piccolo, Gohan and Pan meaningful time in the spotlight, why stop there?

[JulieYBM]

I would absolutely love a Pan and Bra on-oing story. Or making Caulifla and Kale the main characters. Hell, let's see a leading role for Future Trunks trying to rebuiltdhis universe. Gimme a series where Goten and Trunks are boyfriends and also stumble into having to become stronger martial artists because a powerful new rival hurts their pride.

[Zephyr]

Yeah, Super Hero was fun. I'm definitely down for more side stories like it, featuring other characters in the lead role.

Still can't say I'd find an ongoing story focusing on them to be as fun as one focusing on Goku, though. Really, I think Vegeta just needs to retire, already. Goku's rivalry with him is long past its expiration date, and Goku's found plenty of newer antagonists to motivate character and martial growth in, like Freeza, Boo, Beerus, Hit, Geran, and Broli. Granted, "Boo" becoming his new second fiddle is Dragon Ball's ending, so that's probably not happening.

[ABED]

I think something like Super Hero just shows that it can work on occassion, not that it would be for the best going forward. And from what I've seen, the belief is not that Goku should literally ALWAYS be the main character, just that by and large he remains the lead. Letting other character(s) take the spotlight for a bit has never been an issue for myself or most, or dare I say anyone.

[MasenkoHA]

. Letting other character(s) take the spotlight for a bit has never been an issue for myself or most, or dare I say anyone.

Right. Nobody seemed to have a problem with the Garlic Jr saga because of no Goku. I'm pretty sure the Bojack film was fairly well received. The Broly sequels are hated, but not because Goku is barely in them.

There's a difference between Goku sitting an arc out or getting sidelined in a film and retiring the character and moving forward with the series at of some desperate attempt to turn Dragon Ball into Digimon or Yu-gi-oh

[dragonballhero]

This idea has ringing around in my mind for a while. As someone who loves Goku enough to the point that they would be quite uncomfortable with him being retired from DB for good (it STILL leaves a bad taste in my mouth as to how the Cell Games ended), I feel like Pan (ESPECIALLY after Super Hero) has more than enough potential to serve as a character that could drive an arc (MAYBE two) while Goku takes a temporary backseat.

I mean, Pan (unlike her grandfather) actually has other fairly notable obligations that she has to abide to (like school). Maybe we could see an arc following Pan where she gets into a mix of school-related hi-jinks from time to time (like her parents), training to becoming a great martial artist like her grandfather, and bumble her way into taking on something like a Red Ribbon Army-like threat (though nowhere near the actual army's level).

I mean, for as much as I have a few hang-ups over the Great Saiyaman mini-arc, I have to admit that it was interesting to see Gohan take the lead the way he did for as long as he did. With someone like Pan, who takes far more after Goku than Gohan and Goten do, it'd be interesting to see her tackle an arc in a way unlike Goku (and Vegeta) who don't have 'mundane obligations' to attend to.

[Pride9000!!!]

We wood all love to see this. But the general public wouldn't really be interested in it. It all depends on how they do it. A side story movie, tv special wood be good but a full continuation of anime/manga wood fail pretty badly. I don't think that Toei is interested in taking big risks anyway.

I mean the kind of tried to replace Goku at various points: teen gohan, goten and trunks, ultimate gohan, Uub but they didn't have the confidence to go through it.

Here's a couple of ideas I was thinking of for side stories: anything involving future trunks (maybe the flashback that he tells the main cast about buu), anything involving the saiyans, dragon ball what if, grandpa gohan, and one of my personal favourite about roshis life and past viewtopic.php?f=7&t=45649&p=1681290#p1681290

[MasenkoHA]

I mean the kind of tried to replace Goku at various points: teen gohan, goten and trunks, ultimate gohan, Uub but they didn't have the confidence to go through it.

Gohan is the only one Toriyama ever tried to replace Goku with as main character

[LoganForkHands73]

Right. Nobody seemed to have a problem with the Garlic Jr saga because of no Goku. I'm pretty sure the Bojack film was fairly well received. The Broly sequels are hated, but not because Goku is barely in them.

There's a difference between Goku sitting an arc out or getting sidelined in a film and retiring the character and moving forward with the series at of some desperate attempt to turn Dragon Ball into Digimon or Yu-gi-oh

See, I feel like you're creating a bit of a strawman here. Retiring (or semi-retiring) Goku doesn't equate to them trying to imitate Digimon and Yu-Gi-Oh. How often do those franchises swap out protagonists compared to Dragon Ball? Why is it always those two franchises that get brought up, are they the only pieces of media that employ the protagonist swap trope? I'm not being facetious, I'd genuinely like to understand why, whenever this topic is brought up, the immediate reaction is this "don't turn Dragon Ball into Yu-Gi-Oh/Digimon" slippery slope.

I've given Super a fair shake regarding how Goku has been handled, but in light of the creators' unwillingness to push the character forward in any meaningful way, I can confidently say at this point that I'm kinda done with the character, I wouldn't lose sleep if he faded into the background (not forever, but if all the movies in the foreseeable future turn out to star other characters, that'd be fine with me), and I wouldn't underestimate general audiences agreeing with that opinion. It's nowhere near as unfeasible as it may have seemed five or so years ago. I dare say it's now pretty mainstream for fans and even casuals to criticise the series' overemphasis on Goku in favour of Gohan, Piccolo or even the humans getting more action. Super Hero has definitely galvanised that section of the audience.

That ChronoTwigger guy also brought up an interesting point about the Japanese philosophy of Kaizen, which is constant repetition until perfection is reached, and I can definitely see how that's applied to Dragon Ball Super with its rigid formulas. Maybe the Dragon Room dudes feel they've "maxed out" the old formulas and now want to try some more risky, experimental stuff. I hope that is the case.

[Zephyr]

Retiring (or semi-retiring) Goku doesn't equate to them trying to imitate Digimon and Yu-Gi-Oh. How often do those franchises swap out protagonists compared to Dragon Ball? Why is it always those two franchises that get brought up, are they the only pieces of media that employ the protagonist swap trope? I'm not being facetious, I'd genuinely like to understand why, whenever this topic is brought up, the immediate reaction is this "don't turn Dragon Ball into Yu-Gi-Oh/Digimon" slippery slope.

Can't forget Jojo's Bizarre Adventure!

In my experience, the "retire Goku already" sentiment tends to go hand-in-hand with "Goku should pass the torch to the next generation already". This notion feels predicated on the idea that Dragon Ball is a generational story, rather than one about Goku specifically cultivating ever greater strength (and going to increasingly problematic lengths to test it). Goku had the torch passed to him, so it's natural he'll eventually pass the torch as well. But the story didn't follow the person from whom he received the torch prior to following him, so the notion is mistaken.

All that to say, the reaction appears to be less "don't turn Dragon Ball into one of these" but rather "Dragon Ball isn't one of these".

I really enjoyed Super Hero. It was a ton of fun. But I can't say it really pushed anybody's characters forward in any meaningful way. So, supposing that they don't know where to push Goku's character, it doesn't follow that they know where to push anyone else's character either. And that's fine! Dragon Ball ended almost 30 years ago. There's probably a reason this midquel has spent the last near-decade living in a timeskip. Retiring or semi-retiring Goku himself wouldn't be a fix for this.

That's not to say I disagree with what I think is the core of your point: why not have more fun side stories in this midquel? I think making more of these is perfectly compatible with keeping Goku's story as the main one.

[Skar]

I enjoyed Super Hero but I think what limits the series from doing this more often is the need to give them a transformation at the end. It felt more like appealing to fans who wanted these characters to be "relevant" which is pretty late at this point. I was fine with Gohan not being interested in training and Piccolo taking a more mentor role since the Buu saga so suddenly jumping up to Goku and Vegeta's level didn't really matter to me.

Apparently this took some inspiration from comic book films so that could be an example. Fans enjoy standalone DC and Marvel films without every hero needing to be as strong as Superman or Thor. Digimon and Jojo have a big cast and occasionally focus on side characters. It's usually the main Digidestined and his rival with the strongest Digimon and that generation's Jojo with the strongest stand but it doesn't prevent other characters from having their own side stories.

I wouldn't mind seeing something like that for DB. Jaco and Bardock and Trunks TV specials were good but those were prequels. It seems like previous characters can't be seen again unless they're also getting a power up like Future Trunks in the Goku Black arc or Bardock in the Granolah arc. That was a flashback but relevant to the current battle mainly because he unlocked a new power-up to defeat Gas back then.

[Anonymous Friend]

. Letting other character(s) take the spotlight for a bit has never been an issue for myself or most, or dare I say anyone.

Right. Nobody seemed to have a problem with the Garlic Jr saga because of no Goku. I'm pretty sure the Bojack film was fairly well received. The Broly sequels are hated, but not because Goku is barely in them.

There's a difference between Goku sitting an arc out or getting sidelined in a film and retiring the character and moving forward with the series at of some desperate attempt to turn Dragon Ball into Digimon or Yu-gi-oh

Isn't the genral strcture of a Z arc having Goku sidelined with an ingury or something for several episodes while everyone else doing the story, then Goku comes back at te last second?

[LoganForkHands73]

Can't forget Jojo's Bizarre Adventure!

In my experience, the "retire Goku already" sentiment tends to go hand-in-hand with "Goku should pass the torch to the next generation already". This notion feels predicated on the idea that Dragon Ball is a generational story, rather than one about Goku specifically cultivating ever greater strength (and going to increasingly problematic lengths to test it). Goku had the torch passed to him, so it's natural he'll eventually pass the torch as well. But the story didn't follow the person from whom he received the torch prior to following him, so the notion is mistaken.

All that to say, the reaction appears to be less "don't turn Dragon Ball into one of these" but rather "Dragon Ball isn't one of these".

That's true for some people, but the origin of the generational idea boils down to Toriyama's decisions way back in the Cell/Buu arc. Goku effectively did pass the torch to Gohan -- for a solid portion of the story, that was what Toriyama was going for and, on some level, it had been telegraphed ever since Gohan was introduced. Then of course there's Goku's vocal desire to pass the torch onto Goten, Trunks, Uub and whoever can step up to the plate, a major character motivation that vanished in Super. I can't blame people at all for taking Dragon Ball as more of a generational story than it ultimately is. Even if it were, I don't think it can be compared to JoJo and the other franchises which filter in new protagonists for every arc.

Speaking purely for myself, the whole generational aspect doesn't really matter to me anymore. I just want to follow someone else... anyone else.

I really enjoyed Super Hero. It was a ton of fun. But I can't say it really pushed anybody's characters forward in any meaningful way. So, supposing that they don't know where to push Goku's character, it doesn't follow that they know where to push anyone else's character either. And that's fine! Dragon Ball ended almost 30 years ago. There's probably a reason this midquel has spent the last near-decade living in a timeskip. Retiring or semi-retiring Goku himself wouldn't be a fix for this.

That's not to say I disagree with what I think is the core of your point: why not have more fun side stories in this midquel? I think making more of these is perfectly compatible with keeping Goku's story as the main one.

IMO, Super Hero did way more to progress the characters than I expected, and not just with the power-ups. I loved Piccolo's arc of facing up to the fact that, deep down, he was just as complacent and unconfident as Gohan when a non-Goku/Vegeta threat finally arrived, and resolving to change that. I liked that we saw a more balanced portrayal of Gohan who struggles to balance his work, family and training, but tries his best with all three, whereas before he'd always hyper focus on one to the detriment of the others. The status quo isn't radically different by the end, I'll agree, but there's potential for more character development if they continue the threads they've set up. Wouldn't it be cool to see Piccolo face another major threat, but this time he has the power and confidence he earned in Super Hero?

[ABED]

I don't think focusing the story on anyone else for the long term would ultimately benefit the story that much. Perhaps end DB and start a spin off. I wonder what it is anyone thinks would change with Goku not in the lead. I mean that in earnest. What do you want to change that can't be accomplished with Goku as the protagonist?

[LoganForkHands73]

I don't think focusing the story on anyone else for the long term would ultimately benefit the story that much. Perhaps end DB and start a spin off. I wonder what it is anyone thinks would change with Goku not in the lead. I mean that in earnest. What do you want to change that can't be accomplished with Goku as the protagonist?

Incremental changes like that do the world of good. Toriyama has kept Goku in a very predictable role and characterisation for the last few years, nothing if not consistent, so they seem to be overly cautious when faced with doing anything crazy that could upend his market value. Even having him remember Bardock recently was considered a controversial move, despite being the first shred of character development he's had in ages. They can't have him face the kinds of problems Piccolo, Gohan or anyone else faces, because it wouldn't make sense on a basic narrative level. Can you imagine Goku having a dilemma over caring about golden insects more than training? That's what made Super Hero so refreshing to me, the premise forced Toriyama to get more creative and get inside the characters' heads, which you can't really do with Goku... 'cause there's not much going on up there.

In theory, yeah, they could suddenly flip a switch and turn Goku into a much deeper character, but I fear that's never going to happen at this rate. We could keep up the Piccolo & Gohan adventures as a spin-off I guess, but that's just branding at the end of the day.

[Ashur]

I would actually like if Dragon Ball, when entering a new phase after Super or the DB manga ending, focused on Gohan or Pan instead of Goku (or maybe BOTH Gohan and Pan, much like it was Goku and Gohan for a while during the Saiyan and Frieza arcs), after we get Goku to become a real master of martial arts surpassing Beerus.

Nowdays he just keeps getting his character regressed and new flaws that weren't there before and contradict his earlier characterization are being created to keep him in a student/trainee role, at this point, after having mastered UI as if it was another transformation, he should be just focusing on perfecting it further, with Whis treating him more and more as an equal instead of just some kid who doesn't understand the basics of martial arts, but instead, he now doesn't even know what meditation and precise ki control are???

That's ridiculous, not to mention completely contradictory to what the original story showed us, where Goku was in contact with the spiritual/mental side of training especially after his training with Kami and Mr. Popo, and this "exherting the true power only when one must strike" is something that was already around during the Ginyu fight, "learning it" from Jiren doesn't make sense, unless it's just taking it further, but the narrative doesn't treat it as such, otherwise it would be something Goku would have taken note to develop on his own, and surely before so many years passed after the ToP.

Goku is being potrayed like this to keep him learning, but in doing so, they make him magically forget his past lessons, the Goku from the end of the original manga, it seems like the only way to have him be an actual master is to put the spotlight on someone else permanently, so he can show up less, and be of actual help when he does, demonstrating his experience, especially if it's a "next generation" story.

I feel it's for the better of the younger characters and Goku himself.

[ABED]

I look at these posts and while I agree that often he's regressed (not just him, BTW) in order to facilitate a lesson, the cure isn't to put the spotlight on someone else. They've all completed their arcs. What we're seeing is often what happens in revivals. It's a BIG problem I had with the Gilmore Girls revival. One of the best things about Cobra Kai is that we are now seeing the story from the teacher's perspective. In the hands of a good writer, I'm sure there's plenty of lessons for Goku to learn even as a master.

Stories do require characters to change, but there's no rule that requires it to be the main character. Sometimes they aren't the ones to change but rather, they are the catalyst for others' change.

[dragonballhero]

I look at these posts and while I agree that often he's regressed (not just him, BTW) in order to facilitate a lesson, the cure isn't to put the spotlight on someone else. They've all completed their arcs. What we're seeing is often what happens in revivals. It's a BIG problem I had with the Gilmore Girls revival. One of the best things about Cobra Kai is that we are now seeing the story from the teacher's perspective. In the hands of a good writer, I'm sure there's plenty of lessons for Goku to learn even as a master.

Stories do require characters to change, but there's no rule that requires it to be the main character. Sometimes they aren't the ones to change but rather, they are the catalyst for others' change.

I think you might be onto something there. I love characters like Gohan, Piccolo, Pan, etc..

But I always feel like Goku getting the shaft (permanently) doesn't feel like the answer to the 'Goku fatigue'. As I've said in the past, Gohan's stint as the Great Saiyaman was fun, but I don't think I'd be as into DB if Gohan took the reigns permanently. I like Gohan, but he just doesn't give off the same feeling of excitement for me like Goku does.

Same goes Piccolo. I have yet to see Super Hero in full, but from what I've seen so far, Piccolo is truly at his best. But him being focused on constantly, I just don't know about that.

I think I'd be more willing to give Pan a shot, what with her truly channeling Goku in his youth and, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, I feel like the series can do some interesting stuff with her that Goku never seemed to experience at her age. Though just like her dad and Piccolo, her being THE focus 24/7 isn't anything I'm clamoring for.

[Ashur]

I look at these posts and while I agree that often he's regressed (not just him, BTW) in order to facilitate a lesson, the cure isn't to put the spotlight on someone else. They've all completed their arcs. What we're seeing is often what happens in revivals. It's a BIG problem I had with the Gilmore Girls revival. One of the best things about Cobra Kai is that we are now seeing the story from the teacher's perspective. In the hands of a good writer, I'm sure there's plenty of lessons for Goku to learn even as a master.

Stories do require characters to change, but there's no rule that requires it to be the main character. Sometimes they aren't the ones to change but rather, they are the catalyst for others' change.

This could be another way to fix it, and probably better as it would focus on the relationship between Goku (the flagship character) and his student (be it Pan or Uub or whoever) but i said "it seems that the only way to fix it is to put the spotlight on someone else" because the way things are going now, i'm not confident in that they would do this successfully.

By the time Goku is picked up in BoG, the narrative opens up a new world to him, it was good for his character, but then as time went on the only way to express him discovering this new world and developing was to regress him in some counter-intuitive ways, i get it that just "mastering god ki" might not sound as exciting as a character arc, but making Goku into a child wasn't the solution, they had the chance to develop Goku in an organic way but they squandered it precisely because they want to keep him in the spotlight longer, i figure Toriyama was thinking "well if he masters god ki then what is there left for him to do?".

If it were up to me we would maintaint the elements of Goku learning to fight without thinking without making him forget about MEDITATION.

Then there's the problems of Goku's development of UI getting sidetracked with all this "True UI" nonsense that ruins the very concept.

I like the things the manga has been doing with him regaining love for his parents, makes sense for the new Bardock and Gine's characters to give them a payoff, but i'm not precisely a fan of the new Bardock and how Goku's family history is nowdays so it's good for the elements that are canon now, but not ideal for me, not to mention the whole "pride" thing is so dumb, that's Toyotaro's doing, and it's fine for what it is.

But on the anime side of things we have the constantly regressing Goku, and if the only way for him to get fixed is to give the main character role to someone else i can accept that.

In some ways GT does what you describe, with him and Pan, if we could have that focus for Goku's character, parallel from his development of the technique of the angels (the most interesting aspect of Goku's current development) it would be perfect.

That as well as less pushing of this narrative that he was always a selfish jerk during the original series (which gets mentioned time and time again during DBS to "develop" him).