Fan group scanning/remastering of multi-generational film prints previously owned by FUNimation

[Ajay]

That's only really half true. They're all storyboarded and animated using 4:3 layouts, but it was the later ones that started using 16:9 guides on top of the 4:3 frames to ensure it worked in both formats. Those don't exist on the early films, so they're 100% created for fullscreen and shouldn't be cropped. Either way, I find the 16:9 versions feel quite cramped and it seems clear the staff were far more accustomed to working with a full frame format.

[jjgp1112]

Yeah...like you can take Toei's stuff quite a ways further than anything you can conceive with this master, but at the very least you can achieve 95% of the 2018 black levels with this.

[Someoneimportant]

If they were first shown in widescreen and that's what everyone in the public first ever saw them in ,then I think it's perfectly fine to have them in that format, although I don't mind 4:3 either. It's not a deal breaker either way. This to me isn't the same as cropping the show to 16:9. (Which is objectively incorrect)

I can't however get behind the argument "If it's animated in 4:3 therefore it must be seen in 4:3" Sorry Ajay but I have to disagree there,

If they animated a movie exclusively for 4:3 and then decided to show it initially in widescreen then...welp. It sucks, but it is what it is, the widescreen version is kind of the intent at that point, they just screwed up by animating it in 4:3. All that matters is the final product that everyone saw initially, what the movie was during the production stage matters very little.

[Inkei9001]

@DHM211

Check the Kineko discord server, it was explained that the raw scan is 12-bit 4:4:4 and nearly 800GB just for 17 minutes. Data like that stores more dynamic range that is invisible to us on our 8-bit displays. You can shift colour and light information from the 12-bit ranges into 8-bit visibility if you're re-grading the 12-bit file.

You can't do that with the 7.5GB hevc bc of the compression and also the fact that it's 8-bit so is essentially cutting away ~67 billion colour values.

but if u care about how it was "intended to be seen", then film prints inherently do not get projected with the dynamic range you see from a scanned negative. Film prints have rolled off shadows and highlights. Film prints are what was intended for viewers' eyes, not the negatives. Seeing as much dark detail as possible wasn't really what film-based cinema was ever about. Dark details are just cool to nerd out over

[DHM211]

@DHM211

Check the Kineko discord server, it was explained that the raw scan is 12-bit 4:4:4 and nearly 800GB just for 17 minutes. Data like that stores more dynamic range that is invisible to us on our 8-bit displays. You can shift colour and light information from the 12-bit ranges into 8-bit visibility if you're re-grading the 12-bit file.

You can't do that with the 7.5GB hevc bc of the compression and also the fact that it's 8-bit so is essentially cutting away ~67 billion colour values.

but if u care about how it was "intended to be seen", then film prints inherently do not get projected with the dynamic range you see from a scanned negative. Film prints have rolled off shadows and highlights. Film prints are what was intended for viewers' eyes, not the negatives. Seeing as much dark detail as possible wasn't really what film-based cinema was ever about. Dark details are just cool to nerd out over

I really don't care about "how something was intended to be seen ", I just care about what looks the best. Kineko did a great job however, Toei's 2018 remaster, outside of a few of the movies having easily fixable tints, is still perfect. Crushed dark levels are really just a minor point.

That's only really half true. They're all storyboarded and animated using 4:3 layouts, but it was the later ones that started using 16:9 guides on top of the 4:3 frames to ensure it worked in both formats. Those don't exist on the early films, so they're 100% created for fullscreen and shouldn't be cropped. Either way, I find the 16:9 versions feel quite cramped and it seems clear the staff were far more accustomed to working with a full frame format.

I haven't watched the first three dragon ball movies in years so I won't talk about those, but I recently just re-watched Dead Zone and honestly I did not get that vibe at all. I also saw the ultimate uncut edition of the movie, which is in 4:3, and honestly while there is more picture, it doesn't really feel like you're getting anything. It's sort of like IMAX enhanced version to movies. Sure there is more footage, but it's more so filler space. 9/10 times you don't gain any important information just more of your screen is filled up.



Not trying to convert you to a different aspect ratio of movie, of course you're entitled to enjoy which ever version prefer.

[Inkei9001]

@DHM211

Check the Kineko discord server, it was explained that the raw scan is 12-bit 4:4:4 and nearly 800GB just for 17 minutes. Data like that stores more dynamic range that is invisible to us on our 8-bit displays. You can shift colour and light information from the 12-bit ranges into 8-bit visibility if you're re-grading the 12-bit file.

You can't do that with the 7.5GB hevc bc of the compression and also the fact that it's 8-bit so is essentially cutting away ~67 billion colour values.

but if u care about how it was "intended to be seen", then film prints inherently do not get projected with the dynamic range you see from a scanned negative. Film prints have rolled off shadows and highlights. Film prints are what was intended for viewers' eyes, not the negatives. Seeing as much dark detail as possible wasn't really what film-based cinema was ever about. Dark details are just cool to nerd out over

I really don't care about "how something was intended to be seen ", I just care about what looks the best. Kineko did a great job however, Toei's 2018 remaster, outside of a few of the movies having easily fixable tints, is still perfect. Crushed dark levels are really just a minor point.

oh, i just read these words from u earlier
"but the movies weren't intended to be seen that way anyway so it's no loss to me"
so i thought maybe the dark details be no loss to you on kineko's 8-bit viewing encode since they weren't necessarily "intended to be seen" either

[DHM211]

@DHM211

Check the Kineko discord server, it was explained that the raw scan is 12-bit 4:4:4 and nearly 800GB just for 17 minutes. Data like that stores more dynamic range that is invisible to us on our 8-bit displays. You can shift colour and light information from the 12-bit ranges into 8-bit visibility if you're re-grading the 12-bit file.

You can't do that with the 7.5GB hevc bc of the compression and also the fact that it's 8-bit so is essentially cutting away ~67 billion colour values.

but if u care about how it was "intended to be seen", then film prints inherently do not get projected with the dynamic range you see from a scanned negative. Film prints have rolled off shadows and highlights. Film prints are what was intended for viewers' eyes, not the negatives. Seeing as much dark detail as possible wasn't really what film-based cinema was ever about. Dark details are just cool to nerd out over

I really don't care about "how something was intended to be seen ", I just care about what looks the best. Kineko did a great job however, Toei's 2018 remaster, outside of a few of the movies having easily fixable tints, is still perfect. Crushed dark levels are really just a minor point.

oh, i just read these words from u earlier
"but the movies weren't intended to be seen that way anyway so it's no loss to me"
so i thought maybe the dark details be no loss to you on kineko's 8-bit viewing encode since they weren't necessarily "intended to be seen" either

Unless the black levels are crushed like the orange bricks, then I'm fine with a little bit of detail being lost if it means an overall superior remaster.

[Trachta10]

@DHM211

Check the Kineko discord server, it was explained that the raw scan is 12-bit 4:4:4 and nearly 800GB just for 17 minutes. Data like that stores more dynamic range that is invisible to us on our 8-bit displays. You can shift colour and light information from the 12-bit ranges into 8-bit visibility if you're re-grading the 12-bit file.

You can't do that with the 7.5GB hevc bc of the compression and also the fact that it's 8-bit so is essentially cutting away ~67 billion colour values.

but if u care about how it was "intended to be seen", then film prints inherently do not get projected with the dynamic range you see from a scanned negative. Film prints have rolled off shadows and highlights. Film prints are what was intended for viewers' eyes, not the negatives. Seeing as much dark detail as possible wasn't really what film-based cinema was ever about. Dark details are just cool to nerd out over

So the dark details suddenly don't matter anymore, because weren't "intended to be seen" originally

[jjgp1112]

@DHM211

Check the Kineko discord server, it was explained that the raw scan is 12-bit 4:4:4 and nearly 800GB just for 17 minutes. Data like that stores more dynamic range that is invisible to us on our 8-bit displays. You can shift colour and light information from the 12-bit ranges into 8-bit visibility if you're re-grading the 12-bit file.

You can't do that with the 7.5GB hevc bc of the compression and also the fact that it's 8-bit so is essentially cutting away ~67 billion colour values.

but if u care about how it was "intended to be seen", then film prints inherently do not get projected with the dynamic range you see from a scanned negative. Film prints have rolled off shadows and highlights. Film prints are what was intended for viewers' eyes, not the negatives. Seeing as much dark detail as possible wasn't really what film-based cinema was ever about. Dark details are just cool to nerd out over

So the dark details suddenly don't matter anymore, because weren't "intended to be seen" originally

His point is that while galaxy level dark details are cool, they're not exactly necessary so no sense breaking your back for them. For instance, you can go as far as making the 2018 master look like a cel scan :



but was that really the intention?

[Inkei9001]

Unless the black levels are crushed like the orange bricks, then I'm fine with a little bit of detail being lost if it means an overall superior remaster.

So does that mean you're fine with how the Kineko darks look? Or is it like orange bricks?

@Trachta10
If you're someone who cares for watching things "as they were intended" like DHM made himself sound by saying he doesn't care about 4:3, then yes...having all the dark details shouldn't matter to you just the same as having top and bottom of the drawings apparently don't matter to him.

[DHM211]

Unless the black levels are crushed like the orange bricks, then I'm fine with a little bit of detail being lost if it means an overall superior remaster.

So does that mean you're fine with how the Kineko darks look? Or is it like orange bricks?

Yeah this is exactly like the orange bricks

[jjgp1112]

Unless the black levels are crushed like the orange bricks, then I'm fine with a little bit of detail being lost if it means an overall superior remaster.

So does that mean you're fine with how the Kineko darks look? Or is it like orange bricks?

Yeah this is exactly like the orange bricks

With just a slight black adjustment it's far better than the Orange Bricks/steel books and reasonably close to the 2018 masters...and it takes far less work than unfucking the yellow tint in the 2018 release. I can do it and I don't know shit about the technical side of things, just moving an adjustment curve until my eyes can see that it looks good and isn't distorted

[DHM211]

So does that mean you're fine with how the Kineko darks look? Or is it like orange bricks?

Yeah this is exactly like the orange bricks

With just a slight black adjustment it's far better than the Orange Bricks/steel books and reasonably close to the 2018 masters...and it takes far less work than unfucking the yellow tint in the 2018 release.

I was being sarcastic.

Removing the color tint from the 2018 remaster took me all of 20 seconds. Maybe what you did to bring the black levels down is easier, but it definitely doesn't look better. Everything looks washed out.

[Venny]

@DHM211

Check the Kineko discord server, it was explained that the raw scan is 12-bit 4:4:4 and nearly 800GB just for 17 minutes. Data like that stores more dynamic range that is invisible to us on our 8-bit displays. You can shift colour and light information from the 12-bit ranges into 8-bit visibility if you're re-grading the 12-bit file.

You can't do that with the 7.5GB hevc bc of the compression and also the fact that it's 8-bit so is essentially cutting away ~67 billion colour values.

but if u care about how it was "intended to be seen", then film prints inherently do not get projected with the dynamic range you see from a scanned negative. Film prints have rolled off shadows and highlights. Film prints are what was intended for viewers' eyes, not the negatives. Seeing as much dark detail as possible wasn't really what film-based cinema was ever about. Dark details are just cool to nerd out over

This ^

[Venny]

@DHM211

Check the Kineko discord server, it was explained that the raw scan is 12-bit 4:4:4 and nearly 800GB just for 17 minutes. Data like that stores more dynamic range that is invisible to us on our 8-bit displays. You can shift colour and light information from the 12-bit ranges into 8-bit visibility if you're re-grading the 12-bit file.

You can't do that with the 7.5GB hevc bc of the compression and also the fact that it's 8-bit so is essentially cutting away ~67 billion colour values.

but if u care about how it was "intended to be seen", then film prints inherently do not get projected with the dynamic range you see from a scanned negative. Film prints have rolled off shadows and highlights. Film prints are what was intended for viewers' eyes, not the negatives. Seeing as much dark detail as possible wasn't really what film-based cinema was ever about. Dark details are just cool to nerd out over

So the dark details suddenly don't matter anymore, because weren't "intended to be seen" originally

He never said that. He said not all dark detail matters. What matters is the overall picture. If you lose some dark detail but everything else about the picture is near perfect then why even complain? This print has damn near identical dark detail to Toei's remaster and that was from a negative! And this encode that was released isn't even touched up or restored. The raw 12 bit 4:4:4 file absolutely has that dark detail hidden in there and with adjustments and boosting of the shadows it can be recovered.

[Trachta10]

@DHM211

Check the Kineko discord server, it was explained that the raw scan is 12-bit 4:4:4 and nearly 800GB just for 17 minutes. Data like that stores more dynamic range that is invisible to us on our 8-bit displays. You can shift colour and light information from the 12-bit ranges into 8-bit visibility if you're re-grading the 12-bit file.

You can't do that with the 7.5GB hevc bc of the compression and also the fact that it's 8-bit so is essentially cutting away ~67 billion colour values.

but if u care about how it was "intended to be seen", then film prints inherently do not get projected with the dynamic range you see from a scanned negative. Film prints have rolled off shadows and highlights. Film prints are what was intended for viewers' eyes, not the negatives. Seeing as much dark detail as possible wasn't really what film-based cinema was ever about. Dark details are just cool to nerd out over

So the dark details suddenly don't matter anymore, because weren't "intended to be seen" originally

He never said that. He said not all dark detail matters. What matters is the overall picture. If you lose some dark detail but everything else about the picture is near perfect then why even complain? This print has damn near identical dark detail to Toei's remaster and that was from a negative! And this encode that was released isn't even touched up or restored. The raw 12 bit 4:4:4 file absolutely has that dark detail hidden in there and with adjustments and boosting of the shadows it can be recovered.

Yeah of course what Kineko shows looks much better overall, I would prefer to watch the movies like that and not how Toei made them.

but if these have a small negative point, like the dark details not being that good, (something that could be fixed apparently)

there is no need to bring the "well, but that doesn't really matter" argument.

The picture would look better if the dark details were a bit better, thats all.
It still looks amazing

[Inkei9001]

Yeah of course what Kineko shows looks much better overall, I would prefer to watch the movies like that and not how Toei made them.

but if these have a small negative point, like the dark details not being that good, (something that could be fixed apparently)

it is not necessary to bring the "well, but that doesn't really matter" argument.

The picture would look better if the dark details were a bit better, thats all.
It still looks amazing

The point was if he doesn't care about 4:3 because that's "not how it was intended" then why does he care about dark details that wouldn't have shown up on a theatrical print and therefore never originally seen either.

personally i care about both of those "unintended" things. I was only replying to DHM's interesting double standard

[DHM211]

Yeah of course what Kineko shows looks much better overall, I would prefer to watch the movies like that and not how Toei made them.

but if these have a small negative point, like the dark details not being that good, (something that could be fixed apparently)

it is not necessary to bring the "well, but that doesn't really matter" argument.

The picture would look better if the dark details were a bit better, thats all.
It still looks amazing

The point was if he doesn't care about 4:3 because that's "not how it was intended" then why does he care about dark details that wouldn't have shown up on a theatrical print and therefore never originally seen either.

personally i care about both of those "unintended" things. I was only replying to DHM's interesting double standard

Hardly a double standard my guy

[JulieYBM]

The untouched footage looks so nice. I'm glad that the Femboys and their source were able to get even just a little bit of footage and scan it. It is amazing seeing the gorgeous background animation in such high quality.

[Wrigglything]

Damn, makes me wish they went with what Gundam did with their HD releases and just rescan the film with modern technology. Although that's what they did with the movies and Z at least, I wish they extended it to OG and GT too. Dont get me wrong, I appreciate Kai for what it did, but I also wish the original show is given the same treatment too. Especially since the original is more accessible and, frankly, well known anyway.