Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

I think this is merely Tagoma making a fair assumption based on his enhanced battle skills, as well as their intel pointing to Gohan being the son of the Saiyan that defeated Freeza.

By the way, elite fighters being able to sense which opponent has the greatest potential is also a common trope on shonen stories, so I think we should not be too hung up on the particular form Gohan is being observed while the comment is made.

We have other instances of this happening as well. Ginyu almost correctly estimated Goku's power on Namek (He said 85K to Goku's actual 90K), Korin correctly guessed Cell was stronger than Goku and Dabura correctly guessed the top 3 strongest Z fighters on his introduction.

[Goku9001]

That instance would be from extrapolating Goku's fighting abilities both based on what he heard and from what he saw once he battled Goku. At that point, Tagoma had already watched the Z Senshi in battle and witnessed Gohan power up when fighting Shisami. The most straightforward approach would be that Gohan was the strongest of the group. That coincides with Gohan stating how hopeless the situation based on Frieza's newfound superiority over him (rather than anybody else) as well as Gohan presenting the idea that Super Saiyan may or may not be off the table.

For what it's worth, Tagoma's statement suggests that Gohan is "probably" the strongest enemy but we are never given a reason to doubt him. Frieza would be the one who would be most capable of understanding their true capabilities and doesn't doubt him.

[Hugo Boss]

Gohan is really the strongest in the group, that’s not disputed. It’s just not necessarily a direct comparison between Base Gohan and Piccolo, which I think is what being questioned by the OP.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Gohan is really the strongest in the group, that’s not disputed. It’s just not necessarily a direct comparison between Base Gohan and Piccolo, which I think is what being questioned by the OP.

How not? SSJ was considered off the table then. Not only Gohan himself had no idea if he could do it, but warriors can’t estimate the powers of transformations and techniques. Beerus and Ginyu could only estimate Goku’s power without Kaio-Ken (and SSJ in the former’s case), for example.

Base Gohan is also the only one who actually manages to put up a fight against Tagoma while everyone else got one shot.

[Goku9001]

Gohan is really the strongest in the group, that’s not disputed. It’s just not necessarily a direct comparison between Base Gohan and Piccolo, which I think is what being questioned by the OP.

Super Saiyan was considered off the table. It's just a straightforward statement that is backed up by Base Gohan holding his ground whereas the rest of the gang including Piccolo were completely helpless. Otherwise, you can spin this around and have Tagoma referencing Ultimate Gohan since Gohan had never lost his latent power but I don't think that's the interpretation of the scene. After all, Tagoma just witnessed everyone battle and Gohan power up. At least there's some information for Tagoma to go off of.

[Hugo Boss]

I understand what you are saying, but I’m not particularly convinced the scene is actually trying to draw that line. For me, he is just generally assuming Gohan is the strongest there, despite him obviously having no idea about Gohan’s transformations.

For instance, Dabra also had no idea the Saiyans could transform and how strong exactly they would be, but still correctly assumed they were stronger than Piccolo, despite this only being true when they use Super Saiyan 1, at least.

[Goku9001]

I understand what you are saying, but I’m not particularly convinced the scene is actually trying to draw that line. For me, he is just generally assuming Gohan is the strongest there, despite him obviously having no idea about Gohan’s transformations.

For instance, Dabra also had no idea the Saiyans could transform and how strong exactly they would be, but still correctly assumed they were stronger than Piccolo, despite this only being true when they use Super Saiyan 1, at least.

Actually, many would argue that the Base Saiyans were seen as stronger than Piccolo which coincides with the Daiz' interpretation of the Base Kids being on par with Android 18.

It is definitely true that Tagoma made an assumption. He phrases it as if Gohan appeared to be "strongest looking enemy" but that definitely appears to be the case when Base Gohan stands his ground against Tagoma-Ginyu compared to Piccolo who had his arm torn off by Tagoma.

[Hugo Boss]

Dabra and Babidi were completely clueless about how difficult the Saiyans ended up being, so purely using their assumptions to form a conviction, in my opinion, is foolishness. That’s why I take lines like that with a grain of salt.

Also, that Daizenshuu tidbit is something I entirely disagree. Not only because of further clarification on Base Saiyans’ strength, but because “Mighty Mask” was never on par with No.18. She was in total control of their fight until they powered-up to Super Saiyan and saw through their disguise before they had the opportunity to overwhelm her. So, in either scenario, you don’t see equity.

By the way, I’m not exactly advocating to Base Gohan being weaker than Piccolo, if that’s what is looking like! I’m just limiting my scope to that Tagoma’s line, because that was what was asked in the first place, and I encourage using other elements to discuss the idea.

And although I admit I think that’s anime nonsense, Piccolo really doesn’t shine brighter than Gohan in that fight. Gohan also was capable of fighting Piccolo without Super Saiyan in their training sessions post Freeza’s second (or should I say third) defeat. So, I would say Piccolo is at best on par with Base Gohan in that moment. (And some time later another writer decided that Piccolo should be stronger than SS2 Gohan. )

[Goku9001]

Dabra and Babidi were completely clueless about how difficult the Saiyans ended up being, so purely using their assumptions to form a conviction, in my opinion, is foolishness. That’s why I take lines like that with a grain of salt.

Also, that Daizenshuu tidbit is something I entirely disagree. Not only because of further clarification on Base Saiyans’ strength, but because “Mighty Mask” was never on par with No.18. She was in total control of their fight until they powered-up to Super Saiyan and saw through their disguise before they had the opportunity to overwhelm her. So, in either scenario, you don’t see equity.

By the way, I’m not exactly advocating to Base Gohan being weaker than Piccolo, if that’s what is looking like! I’m just limiting my scope to that Tagoma’s line, because that was what was asked in the first place, and I encourage using other elements to discuss the idea.

And although I admit I think that’s anime nonsense, Piccolo really doesn’t shine brighter than Gohan in that fight. Gohan also was capable of fighting Piccolo without Super Saiyan in their training sessions post Freeza’s second (or should I say third) defeat. So, I would say Piccolo is at best on par with Base Gohan in that moment. (And some time later another writer decided that Piccolo should be stronger than SS2 Gohan. )

For sure. That is a plausible interpretation but I definitely think it's just a straightforward assessment of their abilities which we both agree is backed by the fact that Piccolo doesn't really outperform Base Gohan here. In general, it seems the writers don't really have a clue what to do with Piccolo. Piccolo is at best on par with RoF Base Gohan, surpasses both Base Goku and Vegeta when fighting Frost which would require him to surpass Ultimate Gohan, and then surpasses Super Saiyan 2 Gohan yet loses to Ultimate Gohan. It's pretty much all over the place. I just accept those as inconsistencies that may have sprung up due to having different writers rather than trying to explain it all. There's no point.

In Toriyama's mind, I think his ideal placement would be for Piccolo to be stronger than the Base Saiyans but still somewhat weaker than the Super Saiyans but that hardly ever seems to pan out.

[ZombieVito]

For sure. That is a plausible interpretation but I definitely think it's just a straightforward assessment of their abilities which we both agree is backed by the fact that Piccolo doesn't really outperform Base Gohan here. In general, it seems the writers don't really have a clue what to do with Piccolo. Piccolo is at best on par with RoF Base Gohan, surpasses both Base Goku and Vegeta when fighting Frost which would require him to surpass Ultimate Gohan, and then surpasses Super Saiyan 2 Gohan yet loses to Ultimate Gohan. It's pretty much all over the place. I just accept those as inconsistencies that may have sprung up due to having different writers rather than trying to explain it all. There's no point.

In Toriyama's mind, I think his ideal placement would be for Piccolo to be stronger than the Base Saiyans but still somewhat weaker than the Super Saiyans but that hardly ever seems to pan out.

Did we see the same fight? How did Piccolo surpass base Goku and Vegeta fighting Frost? He fought defensively the whole fight.

[Goku9001]

For sure. That is a plausible interpretation but I definitely think it's just a straightforward assessment of their abilities which we both agree is backed by the fact that Piccolo doesn't really outperform Base Gohan here. In general, it seems the writers don't really have a clue what to do with Piccolo. Piccolo is at best on par with RoF Base Gohan, surpasses both Base Goku and Vegeta when fighting Frost which would require him to surpass Ultimate Gohan, and then surpasses Super Saiyan 2 Gohan yet loses to Ultimate Gohan. It's pretty much all over the place. I just accept those as inconsistencies that may have sprung up due to having different writers rather than trying to explain it all. There's no point.

In Toriyama's mind, I think his ideal placement would be for Piccolo to be stronger than the Base Saiyans but still somewhat weaker than the Super Saiyans but that hardly ever seems to pan out.

Did we see the same fight? How did Piccolo surpass base Goku and Vegeta fighting Frost? He fought defensively the whole fight.

He held his own against an opponent that required Vegeta to use Super Saiyan to beat and would have won had Frost not cheated. In contrast, Base Goku and Vegeta were still inferior to 3rd Form Frieza.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I gotta concur that Piccolo didn't display anything to show himself superior to Goku and Vegeta's base forms at the time, especially since later in the anime Goku tells Piccolo flat-out he's beatable when suffering Ki Onset Syndrome.

Unlike the manga, the anime very clearly shows how Piccolo is at a massive power disadvantage, to the point that I doubt he could've taken on Frost's lower forms the way Goku did.

[Hugo Boss]

It’s difficult to compare Piccolo to the Base Saiyans, because in tournaments he usually avoids direct combat, so his feats can be justified with cunning and strategy.

When he is put side by side with Goku in the farming training and recruitment episodes, Piccolo is equally matched with Goku as long as Goku doesn’t power-up to Super Saiyan.

[Goku9001]

I would normally agree but I don't think Weakened Frost was that far from his full power and Piccolo managed to dance around his attacks and tagged him at one point. I don't see any of the Base Saiyans doing that even with cunning tactics.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I would normally agree but I don't think Weakened Frost was that far from his full power and Piccolo managed to dance around his attacks and tagged him at one point. I don't see any of the Base Saiyans doing that even with cunning tactics.

See, I think the issue many have is believing there needs to be a small power difference to achieve feats like this. Their fight isn't a direct contest of strength and traded blows.

Piccolo is entirely on the defensive and saw Frost's entire fight with Goku, so he had a good idea of Frost's movements and strength. Similar idea to how Goku did a lot better against an even more powered-up Broly than SSG Vegeta did in his base and Super Saiyan forms by way of watching how he fought against Vegeta and adjusting to his speed and power in his current state.

Goku and Vegeta, skilled as they are, tend to fight aggressively and prefer to trade blows even with opponents much stronger than them. Piccolo is different and recognizes just how much of a difference there was. He wasn't confident in his own normal battle power to fight Frost like normal.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

In terms of feats, Piccolo did do surprisingly well for someone weaker. He's entirely on the defensive, but Frost only manages to land a single blow and it was because Piccolo let him. But then you have Base Goku vs SSJ2 Caulifla, which is also a fight in which the weaker character puts up a much better fight than he should. In the later it's flat out stated skill was a game changer, and given how Piccolo is repeatedly pointed out as fodder this might also be the case here.

Piccolo is considered a strategic genius among the Z Fighters, and even if Goku and Vegeta could fight like that they clearly had no intention to. Goku transformed to bait Frost into his final form and Vegeta wanted to finish Frost quickly.

[ZombieVito]

He held his own against an opponent that required Vegeta to use Super Saiyan to beat and would have won had Frost not cheated. In contrast, Base Goku and Vegeta were still inferior to 3rd Form Frieza.

He held his own by fighting skillfully. Had they traded blows I would have agreed with you but Piccolo spent the entire fight running away and making clones to deceived Frost to buy time for his limit breaking Makankosappo.

There's also the fact that Goku flat out said Piccolo had 0 chance of winning.

P.S. I also disagree with Frost not being very weakened by fighting SS Goku. He could barely stand up at one point.

[Goku9001]

I would normally agree but I don't think Weakened Frost was that far from his full power and Piccolo managed to dance around his attacks and tagged him at one point. I don't see any of the Base Saiyans doing that even with cunning tactics.

See, I think the issue many have is believing there needs to be a small power difference to achieve feats like this. Their fight isn't a direct contest of strength and traded blows.

Piccolo is entirely on the defensive and saw Frost's entire fight with Goku, so he had a good idea of Frost's movements and strength. Similar idea to how Goku did a lot better against an even more powered-up Broly than SSG Vegeta did in his base and Super Saiyan forms by way of watching how he fought against Vegeta and adjusting to his speed and power in his current state.

Goku and Vegeta, skilled as they are, tend to fight aggressively and prefer to trade blows even with opponents much stronger than them. Piccolo is different and recognizes just how much of a difference there was. He wasn't confident in his own normal battle power to fight Frost like normal.

I understand your point. The issue here is that nothing within that fight is representative of Piccolo being significantly weaker than Frost. Piccolo still firmly acknowledges that Frost retained a good portion of his power. He jokingly questions whether he's still going to be using his Final Form against him. Goku acknowledges that Piccolo can at least exhaust a good portion of energy which would enable Vegeta to take him out swiftly.

As the fight starts, we initially have Piccolo responding to Frost's speed by escaping in the air. Frost attempts to shoot him down with a continuous barrage of blasts but Piccolo manages to escape every one of them while charging the Makankosappo. He even manages to block a relentless assault of punches from Frost while crippled and having use of only one of his arms. Nothing within the fight points toward Piccolo being weaker by a significant margin but he certainly was weaker.

If we refer to Goku's performance against Broly, it's not really analogous to what Piccolo does at all. And, the novelization takes that into account by mentioning how Broly fought to kill Vegeta whereas, against Goku, he aimed to fight for the thrill of it. Whether you believe in the novelization is up to you but I think it's worth considering nonetheless.

He held his own against an opponent that required Vegeta to use Super Saiyan to beat and would have won had Frost not cheated. In contrast, Base Goku and Vegeta were still inferior to 3rd Form Frieza.

He held his own by fighting skillfully. Had they traded blows I would have agreed with you but Piccolo spent the entire fight running away and making clones to deceived Frost to buy time for his limit breaking Makankosappo.

There's also the fact that Goku flat out said Piccolo had 0 chance of winning.

P.S. I also disagree with Frost not being very weakened by fighting SS Goku. He could barely stand up at one point.

They did trade blows. Piccolo deliberately blocked multiple hits from Frost when one of his legs was injured and only had access to one of his arms.

Frost was weakened but if you look at the dialogue, Piccolo is still concerned about Frost using his final form as if it were still relevant and Goku deliberately wants Piccolo to lower Frost's stamina to net Vegeta a decisive win. Goku wasn't even aware of Piccolo's strategy so he must have had some confidence in Piccolo's strength to warrant that reasoning.

[Goku9001]

It’s difficult to compare Piccolo to the Base Saiyans, because in tournaments he usually avoids direct combat, so his feats can be justified with cunning and strategy.

When he is put side by side with Goku in the farming training and recruitment episodes, Piccolo is equally matched with Goku as long as Goku doesn’t power-up to Super Saiyan.

The recruitment episodes are likely where I feel as though the writers questioned if Base Goku truly retained "Super Saiyan God" power. Piccolo definitely keeps up with Base Goku during their farm training while simultaneously being above SSJ2 Gohan but below Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan presumably.

[ZombieVito]

They did trade blows. Piccolo deliberately blocked multiple hits from Frost when one of his legs was injured and only had access to one of his arms.

Frost was weakened but if you look at the dialogue, Piccolo is still concerned about Frost using his final form as if it were still relevant and Goku deliberately wants Piccolo to lower Frost's stamina to net Vegeta a decisive win. Goku wasn't even aware of Piccolo's strategy so he must have had some confidence in Piccolo's strength to warrant that reasoning.

I don't consider Piccolo blocking Frost's attacks while retreading as them trading blows.

This is trading blows to me:



Watching the episode again and Frost actually says he doesn't have enough power to accidently kill Piccolo so that plus the visual cues Frost displays says to me that he was indeed severely weakened. Also Goku especially says to Piccolo to tire Frost "a little" if he can to "probably" help Vegeta after Piccolo asks if he should forfeit so Goku really didn't have much hopes from his performance.

I really don't see a problem with Piccolo's fight with Frost. Even later on he technically beats Ultimate Gohan with skill alone while being way weaker than him.