Concurrent Manga and Target Audiences - Older Fans left out?

[MuscleRobo]

Obviously, Dragon Ball as a franchise has been able to sustain a few concurrent manga for many years. However, the target audience for most of these manga seem to be children to young children. I'm not going to say I've read every DB manga but I feel like other franchises have tried to make the jump targeting older fans of the original show. Is Dragon Ball too worried about hurting the brand with a more mature DB manga? Or do they view the DB world as not conducive for a mature manga?

To elaborate with an example before Dragon Ball and even a year before Dr. Slump was the popular Jump series Kinnikuman. This was a popular gag/wrestling manga that some people may know from the M.U.S.C.L.E. toyline that was popular overseas or its sequel series that was released in the Americas called Ultimate Muscle. The original manga for Ultimate Muscle was serialized in a magazine called "Weekly Playboy" that was considered an adult magazine. The violence, fan service and innuendos were cranked up to 11 and it was clearly targeting the older fans of the original manga.

However, at the same time another Ultimate Muscle manga was running concurrently in V-Jump that targeted children. This used a lot of the characters from the Playboy Ultimate Muscle manga but in a less adult setting. The Ultimate Muscle anime itself was a toned down version of the Playboy manga as well; so maybe someone who read the original Kinnikuman in the 80's could watch this new age anime with children of his own!

I feel like when you look at the DB: Super anime/manga/spin-offs it's all a bit same-y. Sure they're not the exact same but the reason people keep asking "Is Moro going to be in the anime?! What part of the continuity is Super Hero in?!" is because they view it all as one connected thing instead of two separate entities. A lot of Jump manga when getting reviewed have made the jump to Seinen and stayed there though like City Hunter or Hokuto no Ken. Do you think the idea of a more "mature" DB manga would sell? Do you think the DB room is too afraid of having a Dragon Ball that kids shouldn't read that would cause brand confusion?

[peterx]

Sadly, Dragon Ball was only mature until it was a Japan-only thing.. when it gained international fame they toned down everything because most society in the world (and their regulators) wrongly sees anime as a children only thing on the same level as western cartoon.. in some ways Japan is a more mature society (higher tolerance for cartoon violence) than the global infantile fandom.

[MasenkoHA]

Tbh I think Toei, Shueisha, and Bandai see enough adult fans in their thirties and fourties still buying the manga and seeing the movies and buying the video games and merch that there is no need to attempt an official Dragon Ball for adults type thing. Why waste money investing in something like that when that demographic is already eating up what you're currently selling?

And yeah the current era has also been heavily criticized but as Dragon Ball is still lining the pockets of the IP holders, they have zero reason to care that SuperSaiyan4Gogeta94 just posted a YouTube video on why the Granaloh arc was terrible.

Sadly, Dragon Ball was only mature until it was a Japan-only thing.. .

It ran on poop jokes and had a cutesy song from Masako Nozawa in character as Son Goku singing about how much he loves his Kinto Un and how cool the KameHameHa is as part of its official soundtrack What are you talking about mature?

[ABED]

If this is true, I'm happy the show hasn't grown up with the original fans. Let it be a story aimed at children.

[peterx]

Sadly, Dragon Ball was only mature until it was a Japan-only thing.. .

It ran on poop jokes and had a cutesy song from Masako Nozawa in character as Son Goku singing about how much he loves his Kinto Un and how cool the KameHameHa is as part of its official soundtrack What are you talking about mature?

I mean the extreme violence (DB Piccolo arc's, Freeza's cruelty, Cell eating people showing the full process, LOTS of blood), sex jokes, generally showing humanity's "bad" side with much more crime from everyday people, shooting and killing each other with guns, cursing, etc., etc.
With todays standards "old" DB/DBZ was rather seinen than shounen, SADLY. People got too spoiled nowadays, can't tolerate anything like real life's dark side.. (and I'm only in my early 30s)

[JulieYBM]

The franchise hasn't really changed to cater to older fans because older fans haven't really demanded something 'different'. That is to say, something with more mature storytelling. As such, I think the production committee partners are simply continuing to protect their IP by making what they think is child-appropriate and child-aimed projects.

The only real product that they've put out aimed towards adults have been the Dragon Ball Gals line of figures.

[ABED]

Sadly, Dragon Ball was only mature until it was a Japan-only thing.. .

It ran on poop jokes and had a cutesy song from Masako Nozawa in character as Son Goku singing about how much he loves his Kinto Un and how cool the KameHameHa is as part of its official soundtrack What are you talking about mature?

I mean the extreme violence (DB Piccolo arc's, Freeza's cruelty, Cell eating people showing the full process, LOTS of blood), sex jokes, generally showing humanity's "bad" side with much more crime from everyday people, shooting and killing each other with guns, cursing, etc., etc.
With todays standards "old" DB/DBZ was rather seinen than shounen, SADLY. People got too spoiled nowadays, can't tolerate anything.. (and I'm only in my early 30s)

I think kids can handle way more than you give them credit for.

[peterx]

I think kids can handle way more than you give them credit for.

Maybe they can, but the problem is that the decision makers at the management or even Toriyama/Toyotaro himself is too afraid of a western media backlash showing anything "out of mainstream". They all became cowards with DB. It is sad. Political correctness kills art.

[JulieYBM]

Sadly, Dragon Ball was only mature until it was a Japan-only thing.. .

It ran on poop jokes and had a cutesy song from Masako Nozawa in character as Son Goku singing about how much he loves his Kinto Un and how cool the KameHameHa is as part of its official soundtrack What are you talking about mature?

I mean the extreme violence (DB Piccolo arc's, Freeza's cruelty, Cell eating people showing the full process, LOTS of blood), sex jokes, generally showing humanity's "bad" side with much more crime from everyday people, shooting and killing each other with guns, cursing, etc., etc.
With todays standards "old" DB/DBZ was rather seinen than shounen, SADLY. People got too spoiled nowadays, can't tolerate anything like real life's dark side.. (and I'm only in my early 30s)

What exactly about sex jokes do you think adults should be putting in their media for children? I'm not sure I really follow your thought-process here.

[peterx]

What exactly about sex jokes do you think adults should be putting in their media for children? I'm not sure I really follow your thought-process here.

Not that they should.. but if Toriyama wants to put in sex jokes then let him do it, I think he was much more brave in the "good old times", maybe he would put them again in DBS too but too afraid to do it now. And that is the big problem, not just him, everywhere in the world. (Thats why wokeism is bad.)

[MasenkoHA]

People got too spoiled nowadays, can't tolerate anything like real life's dark side.. (and I'm only in my early 30s)

Satanic Panic was a whole ass thing in the U.S in the 80s. People who whine that people are too soft and easily offended "nowadays" have no clue what they're actually talking about.

Not that they should.. but if Toriyama wants to put in sex jokes then let him do it, I think he was much more brave in the "good old times", maybe he would put them again in DBS too but too afraid to do it now.

Super had at least two jokes about Bulma's saggy tiddies, and a gag of Roshi needing Pu'erh to turn into a sexy lady so he could learn to control himself. What are you even on about?

[JulieYBM]

What exactly about sex jokes do you think adults should be putting in their media for children? I'm not sure I really follow your thought-process here.

Not that they should.. but if Toriyama wants to put in sex jokes then let him do it

Toriyama can make his sex jokes in his work all he likes but why should that work then be market towards children?

, I think he was much more brave in the "good old times",

Why did including sex jokes in a comic aimed at kids make him brave? What fearsome force was he bravely defying?

What make those times, when sex jokes were included in comics (and their cartoon adaptions) aimed at children the 'good old times'? The mere ability to write offensive jokes about women and queer people in comics aimed at children? Which specific jokes do you think were appropriate to be included in Dragon Ball?

maybe he would put them again in DBS too but too afraid to do it now.

Those types of 'jokes' are included in Dragon Ball Super. In the cartoon the Muten Routen attempts to sexually assault several female characters (like Yurin) as well as Pu-erh when he is transformed into the form of a cute girl.

And that is the big problem, not just him, everywhere in the world.

Why is it a big problem that Toriyama is no longer included sex jokes (of which I'm not sure of what he specifically means)? In Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero Toriyama included a scene in which Blooma specifically asks Shen Long to increase the size of her ass, that's a kink joke right there.

(Thats why wokeism is bad.)

Wokeism is bad because they no longer include sex jokes or attempt to avoid being offensive towards women in their comics aimed at children? I don't understand what you mean. I was just reading world-famous children's comic Boku no Hero Academia the other week and one of the female child protagonists was featured topless on the cover page of a chapter. That doesn't sound particularly 'woke' to me, albeit that is only one example.

[ABED]

I think kids can handle way more than you give them credit for.

Maybe they can, but the problem is that the decision makers at the management or even Toriyama/Toyotaro himself is too afraid of a western media backlash showing anything "out of mainstream". They all became cowards with DB. It is sad. Political correctness kills art.

I'm not even sure what you're getting at. What do you want them to show that's "out of the mainstream" in a story about a monkey boy hick who really likes fighting in world with smiley poop on a stick?

This isn't political correctness, nor is it killing art. If anything is "killing" DB, it's going past the endpoint. With minor exceptions, DB has covered so much ground, there's nowhere new to take it.

[peterx]

Not that they should.. but if Toriyama wants to put in sex jokes then let him do it, I think he was much more brave in the "good old times", maybe he would put them again in DBS too but too afraid to do it now.

Super had at least two jokes about Bulma's saggy tiddies, and a gag of Roshi needing Pu'erh to turn into a sexy lady so he could learn to control himself. What are you even on about?

"Control" that is the magical word.. old Roshi would never wanted to be cured of pervertness, never had to "apologize" for it through this way, and Toriyama was brave to show him doing all these things.. just imagine what would be todays reaction if Roshi stayed true to his character and not accommodate nowadays hypersensitveness.

Yeah Goku's tits jokes was a good exception, not for the joke itself, but be brave enough to do it in todays climate.

Btw. I don't glorify pervertness in any way BUT if a creator of a cartoon(!) character wants to do it this way then LET him/her do it, no one have any say in it!

[MasenkoHA]

"Control" that is the magical word.. old Roshi would never wanted to be cured of pervertness, never had to "apologize" for it through this way, and Toriyama was brave to show him doing all these things.. just imagine what would be todays reaction if Roshi stayed true to his character and not accommodate nowadays hypersensitveness.

I....he did it so his libido wouldn't be a a liability in the tournament not because he resolved to be a better person. He's not apologizing for anything. I'm sounding like a broken record but what are you even on about?

.

Btw. I don't glorify pervertness in any way BUT if a creator of a cartoon(!) character wants to do it this way then LET him/her do it, no one have any say in it!

And he did! You're fighting a battle that only exist in your head.

Wokeism is bad because they no longer include sex jokes or attempt to avoid being offensive towards women in their comics aimed at children? I don't understand what you mean. I was just reading world-famous children's comic Boku no Hero Academia the other week and one of the female child protagonists was featured topless on the cover page of a chapter. That doesn't sound particularly 'woke' to me, albeit that is only one example.

The term woke and wokeism have been overused and abused so badly they lost all meaning. People nowadays are just using the word woke to mean "I don't like this thing."


Wah its woke because a lady is fighting in this.

Wah its woke because a character is black now and there's no way the actor was the best person for the job

Wah its woke because there is a gay in this

Wah its woke because someone said they are a vegan in this show.

[ABED]

I'm leaving you all to the discussion about dirty jokes in a kids show, because what I'm really interested in is the notion of the show still being aimed at children instead of growing up with the fans. A while back I had a discussion with a fellow member about this and they hated the idea that the shows they watched as a kid didn't age with them. Hate is perhaps too strong a word. Resent is probably better. Regardless, it's something that always stuck with me.

[JulieYBM]

Super had at least two jokes about Bulma's saggy tiddies, and a gag of Roshi needing Pu'erh to turn into a sexy lady so he could learn to control himself. What are you even on about?

Oh yes, I had forgotten to mention the 'sagging tits' jokes. I always find that kind of joke to be so unfunny and offensive coming from a man. Body-shaming women is a historically painful thing for women and I think the callous use of it by Toriyama in his work is both pointless and ultimately poor writing.

Maybe they can, but the problem is that the decision makers at the management or even Toriyama/Toyotaro himself is too afraid of a western media backlash showing anything "out of mainstream". They all became cowards with DB. It is sad. Political correctness kills art.

'Political correctness' does not kill art, it challenges artists to think about why they are making their art and why it is they think the way that they do.

Why is it cowardly to consider the feelings of the people you want to objectify in your art?

"Control" that is the magical word.. old Roshi would never wanted to be cured of pervertness, never had to "apologize" for it through this way, and Toriyama was brave to show him doing all these things.. just imagine what would be todays reaction if Roshi stayed true to his character and not accommodate nowadays hypersensitveness.

Yeah Goku's tits jokes was a good exception, not for the joke itself, but be brave enough to do it in todays climate.

Btw. I don't glorify pervertness in any way BUT if a creator of a cartoon(!) character wants to do it this way then LET him/her do it, no one have any say in it!

Why is it brave to include offensive jokes that shame a woman's body or treat her as if she has no agency in the objectification of her body outside of an erotic context, especially in comics and cartoons created at and marketed towards children?

Why should a creator's intent to aim offensive depictions of women at children be left uncritcized?

[peterx]

(Thats why wokeism is bad.)

Wokeism is bad because they no longer include sex jokes or attempt to avoid being offensive towards women in their comics aimed at children? I don't understand what you mean. I was just reading world-famous children's comic Boku no Hero Academia the other week and one of the female child protagonists was featured topless on the cover page of a chapter. That doesn't sound particularly 'woke' to me, albeit that is only one example.

Wokeism is bad in general because artists can't be themselves, hell, no one can be themselves publicly.. this is one form of a control where in the not so distant future humour will completely die out, art will become totally boring because in time always new and new sensitiveness will come up (its never enough!), everyone must be "perfect" or could end up cancelled everywhere in life for the smallest possible of "bad" behaviour.

[MasenkoHA]

I'm leaving you all to the discussion about dirty jokes in a kids show, because what I'm really interested in is the notion of the show still being aimed at children instead of growing up with the fans. A while back I had a discussion with a fellow member about this and they hated the idea that the shows they watched as a kid didn't age with them. Hate is perhaps too strong a word. Resent is probably better. Regardless, it's something that always stuck with me.

I just don't get that mentality. It's okay for you (the royal you obviously) to have grown too old for a thing you used to like and moving on. It's okay to still enjoy a thing you liked as a kid even if it's no longer for you.

Thing you enjoyed at age 8 shouldn't have to adjust its sensibilities to appeal to you at age 35 because you refuse to watch other things.

[peterx]

Why is it brave to include offensive jokes that shame a woman's body or treat her as if she has no agency in the objectification of her body outside of an erotic context, especially in comics and cartoons created at and marketed towards children?

Why should a creator's intent to aim offensive depictions of women at children be left uncritcized?

People will vote with their wallets. If a creator does things that offends people whatever that is then people will no longer consume that product. It's that simple, let everyone do art as he/she wants as insulting as it is, no one have any say how an artist SHOULD create their work.. it's the "climate" that the (western) mainstream media and social media creates, that is what should stop and everyone will be happy. If something offends me then I simply don't look at that product anymore and don't care about it. I let other people enjoy that to their fullest, not want them to change their views to accommodate my feelings.