Does DBS really blatantly copy tropes this much?

[GokuHater]

HELLO WORLD.
Yesterday I have been thinking about one topic and I think it's a bit important for a DB fan.
Firstly, let me say, I enjoy DB/Z a lot more than DBS and I have A LOT of nostalgia and love for it, so the topic is not about bashing it.
[
However we all know DBS gets a bad reputation for copying threads and tropes from DB while DB never did it and is a super duper original story.
This makes me scratch my head a little as this is really not the case. A few examples:

Simillar story beats:
Red Ribbon <-> Piccolo Daimano:
Goku meets a new villain which is compeletly out of his league and after a quick battle is presumably killed with a strong ki beam.
It turns out he survived, is tasked with getting on top of Korin Tower, where Korin presents him with an idea of water, which magnifies the user's strength. After a trial, Goku comes back more powerfull, in control and calm and fights the villain.
Is it not too simillar to one another? Also Kinto is gone for a moment, presumably forever, in both of these arcs.

Piccolo Daimao <-> Buu arc
Maybe it's just me but Gohan being knocked out by Majin Buu, presumed dead, then being able to train with a god to later come back stronger to everyone's surprise, really makes me think of Goku being knocked by Tamburin, presumed dead etc

Goku saving the day:
While I myself enjoy this trope and it seems grand, it is also used by Toriyama way to often if you look at it.
- Red Ribbon saga - Goku saves Krilin from General Blue at the last second
- Piccolo Daimao - Goku saves Tien from Piccolo at the last second
- Saiyan saga - Goku saves Gohan and Krilin from Nappa at the last second
- Freeza saga - Goku saves everyone from Recoome at the last second
- Freeza saga - Goku saves his friends from Freeza at the last second

Enemy transformations
From Freeza on, it is normal that the main villain is going to have at least 3 tranformations and we'll gonna see them all.
- Freeza - Has 4 transformations. And even after achieving his true form, he still gets his 100% power up. And THEN we see him as Mecha Freeza an arc later.
- Cell - We all know from the beginning, we ARE gonna see his perfect form. And even after gettng this, he still goes Super Perfect later.
- Buu - This guys has more transformations than SSJ line, and while we can discuss if Kid Buu is the most powerfull, we also knew he is gonna have some sort of final form.

Enemies becoming heroes
We are used to hearing about Piccolo's and Vegeta's journey but this is also a trope Toriyama uses very often.
- Ulong
- Ox King
- Yamcha
- Tien
- Piccolo
- Vegeta
- Android 17
- Android 18
- Buu

The list can go on and on. Like I said, I do not want to bash DB/Z, I myself enjoy this tropes even if they're not always good writing. I just make the arguments to show we should treat DBS fairly in that regard.
Off course there are instances where Super just shows scenes from the original with a new color and context and this is baaaaaaad
(Vegeta's Final Flash, Vegeta's sacrifice, SSJB Evolution transformation, Piccolo saving Gohan).

But Super also has some original ideas or even old ideas used in a new way that I enjoy:

- I enjoy Beerus being this new wall which cannot be crossed, Goku not being able to beat him finally
- I enjoy Freeza returning with his many "faces"
- I enjoy clever use of Kaio Ken
- I enjoy a new look on Future Trunks' arc with new relathionships there
- I enjoy the new Mai
- I enjoy a negative charatcer arc in Dragon Ball
- I enjoy an evil god
- I enjoy a tournament being a battle royal for once even if I hate the excecution
- I enjoy Broly
- I enjoy UI concept and how it ties into DB lore and all Goku's masters
- I enjoy seeing west Kai
- I enjoy discovering Saiyan's lore
- I enjoy Granolah's idea to become the most strongest only to find out "the most strongest in the universe" is a title which can drop from the pedestal in a few days as everything keeps changing

How is your takes on this? Let's discuss

[Anonymous Friend]

Every form of storytelling blatanly copies tropes. Even real life. And it looks extra blatant when you use the most basic explanations without going into details.

[DragonBallFoodie]

Don't look at tropes too much, they'll spoil storytelling for you.

[ABED]

Tropes aren't a negative. They are a useful storytelling tool.

Does the main character saving the day really qualify as a trope in the way some seem to imply?

[coola]

It's not really tropes that are probleems for me, but copy stuff from fanfics:
- Evil Kaioshin and Evil Goku (Dragon Ball AF)
- Freeza returning with BS power up, i remember i ve read similar fanfiction in 2002

[ABED]

I don't think they are copying fanfiction. An evil god is a fairly logical direction. And an evil version of the hero is bound to happen. How many times have we seen an evil Superman over the years?

As for Freeza, again, less fanfiction related and more just nostalgia.

[MasenkoHA]

It's not really tropes that are probleems for me, but copy stuff from fanfics:
- Evil Kaioshin and Evil Goku (Dragon Ball AF)
- Freeza returning with BS power up, i remember i ve read similar fanfiction in 2002

Evil version of hero is a stupid fucking common trope. Even Dragon Ball already did a version of that with Tullece

[SupremeKai25]

It's not really tropes that are probleems for me, but copy stuff from fanfics:
- Evil Kaioshin and Evil Goku (Dragon Ball AF)
- Freeza returning with BS power up, i remember i ve read similar fanfiction in 2002

This is not something unique to those fanfics either... the fanfics themselves took inspiration from popular literary tropes. Zamasu the evil Kaioshin fits the usual trope of "Divine villains", aka "Gods who are villains and against the protagonist", which is a trope used in a lot of stories. Plenty of popular franchises have evil Gods as the main villains, there's nothing wrong with this trope.

Same thing for Goku Black, or "Evil Goku" as you called it. The doppelganger trope has existed for literal centuries, it's very common in fiction, because it's interesting to imagine a scenario where the protagonist has to confront a twisted reflection of themselves. If anything, Super further subverts this trope, since Black is not actually an alternate version/reflection of Goku, it's another person entirely (the aforementioned Zamasu inside Goku's body).

There is nothing wrong with taking inspirations from tropes. Tropes are meant to be copied, it's literally their purpose. If anything, Super not only took inspiration from these tropes, but also subverted them. The Evil Doppelganger trope was subverted because Black is not actually an alternate Goku, as I was saying. And the Evil God trope is subverted because Zamasu started off as a minor average deity who could easily be defeated by the protagonists. Typically, Evil Gods in fiction are almighty beings who could easily wipe the floor with the good guys. Zamasu subverts this trope, because he starts off as a weakling (compared to the main Saiyans ofc), who needs to scheme and plan in order to gain a power comparable to that of the good guys.

[LoganForkHands73]

Dragon Ball follows the same "perfection through repetition" method as countless other Japanese media franchises and many other areas of their culture. Toriyama comes up with a cool idea, he sees that the potential to expand on it, then repeats it to iron out the holes in the next arc with incremental changes. When the fans react positively to a particular change, he emphasises it more and more in the succeeding arcs. As said in the OP, sometimes he draws more heavily from stuff that worked in arcs from much further back and reworks the same basic ideas. I don't necessarily see the repetition as a negative thing, it can be satisfying to see familiar tropes expanded on in different ways. The KAIZEN method reflects Toriyama and his editors' approach to making Dragon Ball a perfect commercial product with the broadest appeal possible. Holy shit, they must've done something right because Dragon Ball is one of the biggest names in entertainment right now.

I'd say that where the KAIZEN method starts to fail is when the creators get too assured and comfortable in a particular formula, which you definitely see in Dragon Ball Super. Super is far more rigidly formulaic than the original series was and that frankly gets boring after a while, right? How many times do we have to see Goku and Vegeta take turns to fight an enemy, get their asses kicked, regroup, Vegeta almost wins but gets his ass kicked once more, Goku comes in clutch with a huge power-up, etc etc etc?

[ABED]

I'd say that where the KAIZEN method starts to fail is when the creators get too assured and comfortable in a particular formula, which you definitely see in Dragon Ball Super. Super is far more rigidly formulaic than the original series was and that frankly gets boring after a while, right? How many times do we have to see Goku and Vegeta take turns to fight an enemy, get their asses kicked, regroup, Vegeta almost wins but gets his ass kicked once more, Goku comes in clutch with a huge power-up, etc etc etc?

I wouldn't say it got more formulaic than DBZ. Toriyama falls into the rut of taking Goku out early, making everyone wait for him and having him arrive at the last minute to be the one to turn the tide. He does that TWICE in the Freeza arc.

[LoganForkHands73]

I'd say that where the KAIZEN method starts to fail is when the creators get too assured and comfortable in a particular formula, which you definitely see in Dragon Ball Super. Super is far more rigidly formulaic than the original series was and that frankly gets boring after a while, right? How many times do we have to see Goku and Vegeta take turns to fight an enemy, get their asses kicked, regroup, Vegeta almost wins but gets his ass kicked once more, Goku comes in clutch with a huge power-up, etc etc etc?

I wouldn't say it got more formulaic than DBZ. Toriyama falls into the rut of taking Goku out early, making everyone wait for him and having him arrive at the last minute to be the one to turn the tide. He does that TWICE in the Freeza arc.

True, that was an example of repetitiveness in the OG manga. To defeat Burter, Goku even uses the exact same finishing move he used on Nappa.

I don't know if you've read Toyotaro's Super manga past the Jiren arc yet, but there you'd definitely see what I mean about the more formulaic nature of Super. I wasn't exaggerating, that Goku/Vegeta formula really does happen like clockwork in almost every single arc, including the Golden Freeza and Broly movies, with only minor differences each time. Even when Toriyama did get a bit formulaic, I don't think the series was ever quite that monotonous.

[Geraldo]

Toyotaro openly admits that he treats the source material as something "sacred"; and as a result of it, he tends to trace and "quote" past accounts by Akira Toriyama.

You can see this happening throughout the manga's run in parallel to Dragon Ball Super's anime run. And even worse in the moro arc with the main villain becoming a "meme generator" of previous Dragon Ball Z villains (Majin Buu when he eats OG-7-3I, Perfect Cell when he absorbs OG-7-3I, Frieza's first transformation when he gets swollen by Ultra Instinct Goku's attacks, and while he's not canonical villain with Lord Slug when he becomes one with the Earth and has his huge head standing in front of a shocked Goku).

In the Granolah arc the whole Bardock hyping derives from the success of the original "Bardock: The Father of Goku" special with him defeating Gas with his iconic move against Frieza's Death Ball from the end of the special. The Heeters are also inspired by Bojack's gang in design and in being intergalactic criminals, and with Elec's uncaring nature who's willing to sacrifice his brother for victory kinds of reminding the needless slaughter of Zangya in the movie.

Edit: Elec's treasonous nature seems inspired from Bojack to me. He's hitting Macki when she asks him to save Gas and is willing to escape Planet Cereal on his own and leave his "useless" siblings behind for their fates by Frieza's decisions.

[ABED]

I'd say that where the KAIZEN method starts to fail is when the creators get too assured and comfortable in a particular formula, which you definitely see in Dragon Ball Super. Super is far more rigidly formulaic than the original series was and that frankly gets boring after a while, right? How many times do we have to see Goku and Vegeta take turns to fight an enemy, get their asses kicked, regroup, Vegeta almost wins but gets his ass kicked once more, Goku comes in clutch with a huge power-up, etc etc etc?

I wouldn't say it got more formulaic than DBZ. Toriyama falls into the rut of taking Goku out early, making everyone wait for him and having him arrive at the last minute to be the one to turn the tide. He does that TWICE in the Freeza arc.

True, that was an example of repetitiveness in the OG manga. To defeat Burter, Goku even uses the exact same finishing move he used on Nappa.

I don't know if you've read Toyotaro's Super manga past the Jiren arc yet, but there you'd definitely see what I mean about the more formulaic nature of Super. I wasn't exaggerating, that Goku/Vegeta formula really does happen like clockwork in almost every single arc, including the Golden Freeza and Broly movies, with only minor differences each time. Even when Toriyama did get a bit formulaic, I don't think the series was ever quite that monotonous.

I don't read the Super manga, but Z is very formulaic and it does feel tired at times. I think the overall execution is better and ages better because it was newer, whereas DB is now a nearly 40-year-old franchise. Super does a much better job of changing things up between arcs even if it it's a simple matter of inserting a tournament. Starting with Piccolo, Toriyama found a successful formula. Don't get me wrong, Piccolo through Freeza was peak DB, but it does feel very repetitive.

[GokuHater]

Toyotaro openly admits that he treats the source material as something "sacred"; and as a result of it, he tends to trace and "quote" past accounts by Akira Toriyama.

You can see this happening throughout the manga's run in parallel to Dragon Ball Super's anime run. And even worse in the moro arc with the main villain becoming a "meme generator" of previous Dragon Ball Z villains (Majin Buu when he eats OG-7-3I, Perfect Cell when he absorbs OG-7-3I, Frieza's first transformation when he gets swollen by Ultra Instinct Goku's attacks, and while he's not canonical villain with Lord Slug when he becomes one with the Earth and has his huge head standing in front of a shocked Goku).

In the Granolah arc the whole Bardock hyping derives from the success of the original "Bardock: The Father of Goku" special with him defeating Gas with his iconic move against Frieza's Death Ball from the end of the special. The Heeters are also inspired by Bojack's gang in design and in being intergalactic criminals, and with Elec's uncaring nature who's willing to sacrifice his brother for victory kinds of reminding the needless slaughter of Zangya in the movie.

Edit: Elec's treasonous nature seems inspired from Bojack to me. He's hitting Macki when she asks him to save Gas and is willing to escape Planet Cereal on his own and leave his "useless" siblings behind for their fates by Frieza's decisions.

I don't think these are the best arguments for Toyotaro copying stuff.
True, Moro's giant head may be seen as a bit similar to Lord Slug but there are many other images which actually are a tribute to the original material. I see most of them as this, a tribute, not blatant copies.
Moro itself does remind me of Cell and Piccolo specifically with the restoring of his youth, sort of a demon feel, his absorption of OG and his look after. Oh, and the senzu bean. However he seems more inspired by them but with new twists. It's like saying he is a copy of Freeza beacuse he's killing Namekians or a copy of Buu beacuse a Kai fights with him.
Buu had the problem as well, he may be seen as inspired by Cell as both absorbed people. but something more is done to at least distinguish one from the other.

Also I don't think Toyo being inspired by the source material includes the non manga stuff. Eg. the movies, which already seem like a copy of anime arcs. In that case Zamasu would be a copy of Baby and while there are similarities (just like Granolah and Baby) the original elements of it's stories are enough to set them apart.

[Geraldo]

Toyotaro openly admits that he treats the source material as something "sacred"; and as a result of it, he tends to trace and "quote" past accounts by Akira Toriyama.

You can see this happening throughout the manga's run in parallel to Dragon Ball Super's anime run. And even worse in the moro arc with the main villain becoming a "meme generator" of previous Dragon Ball Z villains (Majin Buu when he eats OG-7-3I, Perfect Cell when he absorbs OG-7-3I, Frieza's first transformation when he gets swollen by Ultra Instinct Goku's attacks, and while he's not canonical villain with Lord Slug when he becomes one with the Earth and has his huge head standing in front of a shocked Goku).

In the Granolah arc the whole Bardock hyping derives from the success of the original "Bardock: The Father of Goku" special with him defeating Gas with his iconic move against Frieza's Death Ball from the end of the special. The Heeters are also inspired by Bojack's gang in design and in being intergalactic criminals, and with Elec's uncaring nature who's willing to sacrifice his brother for victory kinds of reminding the needless slaughter of Zangya in the movie.

Edit: Elec's treasonous nature seems inspired from Bojack to me. He's hitting Macki when she asks him to save Gas and is willing to escape Planet Cereal on his own and leave his "useless" siblings behind for their fates by Frieza's decisions.

I don't think these are the best arguments for Toyotaro copying stuff.
True, Moro's giant head may be seen as a bit similar to Lord Slug but there are many other images which actually are a tribute to the original material. I see most of them as this, a tribute, not blatant copies.
Moro itself does remind me of Cell and Piccolo specifically with the restoring of his youth, sort of a demon feel, his absorption of OG and his look after. Oh, and the senzu bean. However he seems more inspired by them but with new twists. It's like saying he is a copy of Freeza beacuse he's killing Namekians or a copy of Buu beacuse a Kai fights with him.
Buu had the problem as well, he may be seen as inspired by Cell as both absorbed people. but something more is done to at least distinguish one from the other.

Also I don't think Toyo being inspired by the source material includes the non manga stuff. Eg. the movies, which already seem like a copy of anime arcs. In that case Zamasu would be a copy of Baby and while there are similarities (just like Granolah and Baby) the original elements of it's stories are enough to set them apart.

OG-7-3I's eyeballs don't lie. Their design was copied from Baby's. So that nullifies the argument Toyotaro isn't inspired by non-canonical materials.

About moro, yeah, I forgot to type the King Piccolo's youth part, it slipped my mind despite thinking about it when reading your OP and replying via mobile. The senzu bean to an enemy was also done after Piccolo Jr. was defeated in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.

There's no hiding in neither the anime and manga staff that they're trying to copy previously proven successful moments. At first they thought that we are suckers for nostalgia &/ dumb to not see the tracings. But, they were proven wrong and it totally backfired on them with criticism of being uncreative and lazy.

[ABED]

Toyotaro openly admits that he treats the source material as something "sacred"; and as a result of it, he tends to trace and "quote" past accounts by Akira Toriyama.

You can see this happening throughout the manga's run in parallel to Dragon Ball Super's anime run. And even worse in the moro arc with the main villain becoming a "meme generator" of previous Dragon Ball Z villains (Majin Buu when he eats OG-7-3I, Perfect Cell when he absorbs OG-7-3I, Frieza's first transformation when he gets swollen by Ultra Instinct Goku's attacks, and while he's not canonical villain with Lord Slug when he becomes one with the Earth and has his huge head standing in front of a shocked Goku).

In the Granolah arc the whole Bardock hyping derives from the success of the original "Bardock: The Father of Goku" special with him defeating Gas with his iconic move against Frieza's Death Ball from the end of the special. The Heeters are also inspired by Bojack's gang in design and in being intergalactic criminals, and with Elec's uncaring nature who's willing to sacrifice his brother for victory kinds of reminding the needless slaughter of Zangya in the movie.

Edit: Elec's treasonous nature seems inspired from Bojack to me. He's hitting Macki when she asks him to save Gas and is willing to escape Planet Cereal on his own and leave his "useless" siblings behind for their fates by Frieza's decisions.

I don't think these are the best arguments for Toyotaro copying stuff.
True, Moro's giant head may be seen as a bit similar to Lord Slug but there are many other images which actually are a tribute to the original material. I see most of them as this, a tribute, not blatant copies.
Moro itself does remind me of Cell and Piccolo specifically with the restoring of his youth, sort of a demon feel, his absorption of OG and his look after. Oh, and the senzu bean. However he seems more inspired by them but with new twists. It's like saying he is a copy of Freeza beacuse he's killing Namekians or a copy of Buu beacuse a Kai fights with him.
Buu had the problem as well, he may be seen as inspired by Cell as both absorbed people. but something more is done to at least distinguish one from the other.

Also I don't think Toyo being inspired by the source material includes the non manga stuff. Eg. the movies, which already seem like a copy of anime arcs. In that case Zamasu would be a copy of Baby and while there are similarities (just like Granolah and Baby) the original elements of it's stories are enough to set them apart.

OG-7-3I's eyeballs don't lie. Their design was copied from Baby's. So that nullifies the argument Toyotaro isn't inspired by non-canonical materials.

About moro, yeah, I forgot to type the King Piccolo's youth part, it slipped my mind despite thinking about it when reading your OP and replying via mobile. The senzu bean to an enemy was also done after Piccolo Jr. was defeated in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.

There's no hiding in neither the anime and manga staff that they're trying to copy previously proven successful moments. At first they thought that we are suckers for nostalgia &/ dumb to not see the tracings. But, they were proven wrong and it totally backfired on them with criticism of being uncreative and lazy.

Honest question, how cand they both think you're dumb for not seeing the tracings and suckers for nostalgia when the whole point of nostalgia is it's the emotion they want to evoke from the audience?

As for giving senzu to the villains, I don't consider that a repetitive beat as much as an action coming from character in the same way most superheroes don't take the life of their enemy. It's something we see a lot of but most have a no kill rule, so it's natural to see that play out over and over. Goku just wants to test himself and so it's natural he's going to let the villain live if he feels he can get a better fight from them.

[GokuHater]

Maybe but there's a difference in portraying scenes even if it's a similar case.

Letting Piccolo/Vegeta/Freeza go is a part of Gokus character and in all those examples he basically does the same but the scenes are a bit different, the dialogue is altered and even so are the motivations if ever so slightly.

Moro senzu scene is so obviously Cell senzu scene it's hard not to obviously compare the two together.

[MasenkoHA]

The circumstances of Goku giving Piccolo and Cell senzu beans were completely different. He gave Piccolo a senzu because he likely would have died from the injuries he sustained from their fight and he didn't want Kami and Shen Long to die too. Plus the added bonus of having a worthy opponent to keep him oh his toes so he didn't falter on his training. In the case of Cell he wanted to show off how powerful Gohan really was and didn't think it would be a proper fight and showcasing of Gohan's strength if Cell was already a bit worn down from their fight.

I think some people in this thread are confusing vaguely familiar beats with "lol Toriyama kept repeating himself"

[LoganForkHands73]

I thought the Moro senzu scene was more reminiscent of Piccolo Jr with a dash of Freeza, but I guess the Cell scene is more iconic, plus Moro started taking noticeable cues from Cell at that point, so that's the one everyone draws parallels to. Goku healed Moro to give him one last chance to surrender, knowing full well that he wasn't a threat anymore, plus he was selfishly hanging onto a vain hope that Moro could be kept around as a good training buddy, just like Piccolo. Moro also begged for his life like Freeza, which Goku can't seem to resist. Healing Cell was a purely strategic move to put Gohan in the hot seat, Goku had no intention of genuinely sparing him.

Also I don't think Toyo being inspired by the source material includes the non manga stuff. Eg. the movies, which already seem like a copy of anime arcs. In that case Zamasu would be a copy of Baby and while there are similarities (just like Granolah and Baby) the original elements of it's stories are enough to set them apart.

Toyotaro has included some visual references to the movies in his manga several times and judging by the monthly illustrations he makes, he's a big fan of the original characters from those movies. A good example is the scene of the Infinite Zamasu clones surrounding Goku and Vegeta which seems very inspired by the Metal Cooler army in Z Movie 6, but on the whole, he doesn't usually lift whole plots directly from the movies or filler as the other guy implied.

I don't read the Super manga, but Z is very formulaic and it does feel tired at times. I think the overall execution is better and ages better because it was newer, whereas DB is now a nearly 40-year-old franchise. Super does a much better job of changing things up between arcs even if it it's a simple matter of inserting a tournament. Starting with Piccolo, Toriyama found a successful formula. Don't get me wrong, Piccolo through Freeza was peak DB, but it does feel very repetitive.

It was peak DB. I personally never found it too repetitive outside of Goku getting benched twice in the same arc as mentioned. Maybe it is just the age of the franchise making everything feel staler, but it's nevertheless more of a noticeable problem for me now than it ever was with the original series.

One thing I do find interesting is that you can see the current Goku/Vegeta formula vegetate at the very end of the Buu arc, yet it barely has a chance to flourish until Super came along. People forget that Goku and Vegeta didn't actually interact that much after the Saiyan arc so it was novel to see it, but it's been well and truly ran into the ground since then, IMO. The latest manga arc began in the exact same way and, despite all the lofty speculation, things pretty much transpired exactly as they always do.

To its credit, when GT had the chance to repeat the formula in the Shadow Dragon arc, they instead had Goku and Vegeta team up from the start of the One-Star Shenron fight and even had Vegeta swallow his pride by suggesting Fusion. Yeah, the climax of the fight blatantly plagiarises the Buu arc Genki Dama, but the character development on display until that point is all really satisfying.

[ABED]

In that case, I like the duo of Goku and Vegeta. They bounce off each other well. I'm not sure what you want. People complain when it's all Goku (Goku Time) and now the duo of Goku and Vegeta is formulaic. After decades of the story being pretty much a one hander, now having it be a two hander was refreshing. I genuinely want to know what you want out of the story. Do you want it to go back to just Goku or do you want it to be Gohan, or ensemble?