Frieza now stronger than Beerus?

[miguelnuva1]

Black Frieza gets done in by Ultra Fusion Gogeta is my prediction. They way they changed UI to me makes me think it's so Goku can now fuse UI with Vegeta's UE.

[PurestEvil]

I am pretty sure Beerus is still supposed to be stronger than all the other mortals at this stage. It almost seems as if the writers are moving the goalposts with him.

[goku the krump dancer]

I am pretty sure Beerus is still supposed to be stronger than all the other mortals at this stage. It almost seems as if the writers are moving the goalposts with him.

Honestly while I think they are starting to stretch it a little thin as far keeping Beerus as the current threshold for power, I think its whats best at the moment. Even when Jiren was being introduced as being stronger than a G.O.D I thought it was a bit too early for that. I cant quite put my finger on it but I just feel like Goku and Vegeta havent quite had THAT moment in a fight where personally I went "okay, NOW I can buy them being at Beerus' level or higher".

[theherodjl]

I don't think that any of the Hakaishin have even gone all out yet. There was the Hakaishin free-for-all battle but during that event, they all seemed to have just been using general attacks and unique, individual abilities over their signature power of destruction; holding back their ultimate technique for a simple exhibition. It could also be seen akin to how Goku described using his "tournament" power and "battle" power to Tenshinhan at the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. Beerus may just be holding back his full power and what Goku and others can sense from him is just what he feels like displaying.

[Anonymous Friend]

I am pretty sure Beerus is still supposed to be stronger than all the other mortals at this stage. It almost seems as if the writers are moving the goalposts with him.

The goal posts have never been moved. They just couldn't see the goalpost and assumed they knew where they were.

[miguelnuva1]

I am pretty sure Beerus is still supposed to be stronger than all the other mortals at this stage. It almost seems as if the writers are moving the goalposts with him.

The goal posts have never been moved. They just couldn't see the goalpost and assumed they knew where they were.

Beerus has been moved at least 2x officaly since his introduction.

First there was 6,10,15 then there was Jiren.

[Anonymous Friend]

I am pretty sure Beerus is still supposed to be stronger than all the other mortals at this stage. It almost seems as if the writers are moving the goalposts with him.

The goal posts have never been moved. They just couldn't see the goalpost and assumed they knew where they were.

Beerus has been moved at least 2x officaly since his introduction.

First there was 6,10,15 then there was Jiren.

Or could he be secretly training while everyone thought he was napping?

[miguelnuva1]

The goal posts have never been moved. They just couldn't see the goalpost and assumed they knew where they were.

Beerus has been moved at least 2x officaly since his introduction.

First there was 6,10,15 then there was Jiren.

Or could he be secretly training while everyone thought he was napping?

He very well could be but that still moves his power from where we thought it was suppose to be.

[Koitsukai]

A great opportunity for Beerus to disclose he has been training on the side was when he showed Vegeta hakai power, after they were bickering about UI.
Instead of saying he hasn't been slacking around, he said he (and all the hakaishin) have this ace up their sleeve that depends on his instincts and they give 0 fucks about UI, basically saying he doesn't need to train, he only needs to let himself loose and that there are no limits for him.

I think the Beerus-has-been-secretly-training ship has sailed.

[theherodjl]

I think the Beerus-has-been-secretly-training ship has sailed.

To add to this, it ought to be even a little bit hard for Beerus to completely conceal his power when he's getting intense during training. It was established awhile back that power on par with Boo arc SSJ3 Goku could be sensed from like halfway across the entire universe. If Beerus is actually getting even a bit serious while he's sparing with Whis or training alone harshly, you would think that Goku & Vegeta would instantly sense that. For no one to make even a single mention either in-universe or in supplementary material of Beerus training during DBS seems to speak for itself.

[Galan007]

To add to this, it ought to be even a little bit hard for Beerus to completely conceal his power when he's getting intense during training. It was established awhile back that power on par with Boo arc SSJ3 Goku could be sensed from like halfway across the entire universe. If Beerus is actually getting even a bit serious while he's sparing with Whis or training alone harshly, you would think that Goku & Vegeta would instantly sense that. For no one to make even a single mention either in-universe or in supplementary material of Beerus training during DBS seems to speak for itself.

I mean, they could easily reconcile the training thing if they really wanted to. Perhaps Beerus has his own personal RoSaT somewhere inside that immense castle of his, and he just pops-into it here and there(when no one else is around) if he feels the need to become more powerful. A reveal like that wouldn't exactly be out of the realm of possibility, given that Merus knew the location of such a place, and Freeza just happened to randomly discover one while conquering planets. Moreover, if a lowly(by comparison) god like Kami has a RoSaT in his Lookout, then why couldn't Beerus(the highest ranking deity in the universe) also have one in his home? /shrug

But with the reveal/explanation of Ultra Ego, it now seems more likely that we have just never seen the full breadth of Beerus's power... Or anything remotely close to it.

[miguelnuva1]

Dragonball has had several people train in secret that should have been sensed.

Vegeta getting SS2 and Goten and Trunks mastering SS through play fighting for example.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Beerus training is still pretty unlikely.



As silly as the idea sounds, at least it's an explanation as to why his power keeps going up.

[ZeroNeonix]

I gave up trying to make sense of the power scaling in Super. Everyone is as powerful as they need to be for the story. They're always going to hype up the newest villain as the strongest yet, and the newest transformation as the most powerful thing ever. Until we're specifically told or shown that Beerus has been surpassed by someone, it's all just speculation. It's not like Toriyama keeps a chart to track the power levels of each character. There is no logic or math to it.

I mean, Jesus. Broly was going toe-to-toe with Gogeta Blue while in his Super Saiyan state. Now Goku and Vegeta are each stronger than Broly? Are we expected to believe they're both stronger than Gogeta Blue was back then?

[Galan007]

I mean, Jesus. Broly was going toe-to-toe with Gogeta Blue while in his Super Saiyan state. Now Goku and Vegeta are each stronger than Broly? Are we expected to believe they're both stronger than Gogeta Blue was back then?

As nonsensical as it seems, that does seem to be the intent. Per Goku himself, Moro-73 was the strongest opponent he'd faced up to that point(IOW, Moro-73 > Broly.)

That said, Broly was soaking everything SSB Gogeta dished out, and just seemed to be getting more powerful the entire time. So far as we know, the only attack from SSB Gogeta that would have put Broly down for sure was his final 'full-force' Kamehameha... Flip side, MUI Goku toyed with Moro-73 as though he were a powerless feeb.

So based on the above, it seems logical to infer that MUI Goku(Moro arc) > SSB Gogeta. After all, Goku could have killed Moro-73 with low-diff, whereas it would have [evidently] taken SSB Gogeta's maximum power to definitively beat Broly. /shrug

[theherodjl]

Dragonball has had several people train in secret that should have been sensed.

Vegeta getting SS2 and Goten and Trunks mastering SS through play fighting for example.

None of them ever went all out though and kept their strength to levels that wouldn't cause damage to the Earth or even to a city. The team didn't even recognize that Goten & Trunks were masquerading as Mighty Mask until they turned into SSJs in front of them. Evidently, Ki control can make them all a lot harder to sense, I suppose.

[theherodjl]

After watching the fight again, at no point was Broly ever going toe-to-toe with Gogeta Blue. He may have been able to trade some blows with SSJ Gogeta but once Gogeta went blue, Broly was completely outclassed even as he continued to rage. From the frequent looks of satisfaction on Gogeta's face throughout, I'd say he was just toying with Broly and simply wanted to see how long he could last taking a barrage of attacks.

Personally, I'd put it like this.
Black Freeza > Gas(zombified) > or = Gogeta Blue > True UI Goku/Ultra Ego Vegeta/Granolah > Perfected UI Goku > Moro 7-3.

[Galan007]

After watching the fight again, at no point was Broly ever going toe-to-toe with Gogeta Blue. He may have been able to trade some blows with SSJ Gogeta but once Gogeta went blue, Broly was completely outclassed even as he continued to rage. From the frequent looks of satisfaction on Gogeta's face throughout, I'd say he was just toying with Broly and simply wanted to see how long he could last taking a barrage of attacks.

SSB Gogeta certainly outclassed FPSS Broly, and was likely holding back to *some* extent during most of their battle... But like I mentioned earlier: Broly still soaked all of Gogeta's attacks, without taking any significant lasting damage(to the contrary, he actually seemed to just keep getting stronger during the fight.) Additionally, the fact that Gogeta was about to smack Broly with his fully powered Kamehameha suggests he wasn't confident that any other attack in his arsenal could actually get the job done... At least not within the 30 minute window.

On the other hand, MUI Goku effectively incapacitated FP Moro-73(who was > Broly), with like three relatively low-diff attacks. Moreover, MUI Goku could just stand there and outright tank strikes from Moro-73 when he wanted to(Goku was unfazed, while Moro's arm shattered on impact.)

So even if we consider that SSB Gogeta and MUI Goku were each holding back, the fact still remains that Goku utterly dismantled a more powerful opponent far faster(and with far greater ease) than Gogeta displayed against an inferior opponent... Never mind the fact that MUI Goku also went on to initially stalemate Merus-Moro(who was >> Moro-73) shortly afterward.

That being said, I'm not really sure how we could definitively place SSB Gogeta above Moro-arc MUI Goku(barring the insertion of head-canon, of course)..? Perhaps I'm missing something, though. /shrug

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, even if Gogeta was holding his punches, which I think he was to some extent(at the early stage of the final bout, by the end he is throwing everything he's got), he shouldn't have needed to dodge Broly if he was between TUI and Zombie Gas. And a couple of times Broly parried his attacks.
Nothing is more telling and demoralizing than tanking your enemy like Orange Piccolo or MUI vs Moro.

Also, the ancillary material is set on selling an even or close fight, when of course it wasn't, so I seriously doubt Gogeta was holding back that much against him. That'd be the exact opposite of what they've been saying. They weren't on par but the implications were they belong in the same tier.

At most, where I can place a FP Gogeta, would be slightly above Angel Moro, not a kiri higher. Granola is already trashing all of them. Still, I have him between Moro and Goku.

The only way to have Gogeta that high is to disregard Goku's comment about Moro, and also all of the wishes of the Granny arc.
If Granola is the one surpassing Broly(Goku started the arc as U7's strongest, though), and Gas had like three forms above him, Gogeta is at best around UE or silver UI.

[Galan007]

If you give SSB Gogeta the benefit of the doubt, then I suppose he might be around the level of MUI Goku(Moro arc) and Angel-Moro, at best... But there's really no reason I can think of to place him any higher than that.

Tbh, if you look at MUI Goku's fight with Moro-73(who was > Broly) and SSB Gogeta's fight with Broly(who was < Moro-73), I actually think a counter-argument could be made that Goku significantly outclassed Gogeta... But that's neither here nor there. /shrug

Anyway, if someone has a legitimate explanation as to why SSB Gogeta should be placed above the level of MUI Goku(Moro arc), I'd be very curious to hear it.