Main reason that makes Super 17 arc better to me is a fact it only lasts few episodes. Less painful to watch than Zamasu and TOP arcs that lasted way too long than they deserved which especially applies to their anime versions cause manga versions were much better.
Unpopular DB opinions
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- sunsetshimmer
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Plus, the Super 17 Saga actually had a good finish, implementing 18 in the mix.
Meanwhile Zamasu ended with Goku pressing a magic button. Yeah..
Meanwhile Zamasu ended with Goku pressing a magic button. Yeah..
- sunsetshimmer
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True. Regardless of how much you liked or not majority of Zamasu arc, it has easily the worst ending in history. It made entire fight, everything that happened pointless. Goku could've pressed that button at the very first occasion and nothing would've changed. Someone could say "well they tried to save that timeline" but there wasn't much to save anyway. Almost enitre population was dead, gods included, so it's not like killing Zamasu would turn everything back to normal and Goku didn't even keep that button as a last resort if they couldn't beat Zamasu. He just randomly found it and thought "hey maybe i will just summon Zeno lol".
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
The Super 17 arc looks to me like my high school math tests... I would gibberish and have no idea how to solve the equations... but copy somebody else's final answer, hoping it would help me pass the test. It never did, because without the previous steps, the ending is out of context.
The Zamasu arc has a terrible, anticlimatic ending, and it does hurt the overall experience, but the journey is still there. Calling daddy zeno is just bad, something I never expected Goku to do, but the good fights and emotions and mystery remain.
I just skip the ending lol, because I don't like it, while with the S-17 arc, I fast forward to the ending because the previous stuff I don't like and doesn't make much sense either.
Goku looks too dumb in one arc... and fights like an amateur idiot on the other. I don't care much for either arc, but Super 17 arc is unwatchable to me, up until the last 15 minutes. I can get past Goku acting dumb, but not when the fight starts, he's kinda like Rainman, we shouldn't see Rainman fumbling with math.
The Zamasu arc has a terrible, anticlimatic ending, and it does hurt the overall experience, but the journey is still there. Calling daddy zeno is just bad, something I never expected Goku to do, but the good fights and emotions and mystery remain.
I just skip the ending lol, because I don't like it, while with the S-17 arc, I fast forward to the ending because the previous stuff I don't like and doesn't make much sense either.
Goku looks too dumb in one arc... and fights like an amateur idiot on the other. I don't care much for either arc, but Super 17 arc is unwatchable to me, up until the last 15 minutes. I can get past Goku acting dumb, but not when the fight starts, he's kinda like Rainman, we shouldn't see Rainman fumbling with math.
- goku the krump dancer
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Beast Gohan has grown on me.. Not in the sense that I like it now, I still think its insanely stupid looking but I guess after seeing so many different fan art pieces of it all over instagram, my eyes have grown used to seeing it so I'm not as repulsed by it at the moment.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Regarding the Viz localisation of the manga, I actually kind of prefer the ones where they translated the sound effects so that it would be easier for international audiences to understand.
Not to say that there shouldn't be a choice or that a glossary like the full colour editions are not helpful or great, though I guess if I were buying a translated edition of something, I guess I want some of the vital parts, like sound effects, to be understandable in the language I chose for that edition.
Not to say that there shouldn't be a choice or that a glossary like the full colour editions are not helpful or great, though I guess if I were buying a translated edition of something, I guess I want some of the vital parts, like sound effects, to be understandable in the language I chose for that edition.
- ABED
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
I like that Kai didn't start from scratch and just edited the footage
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Agreed, it was a neat experiment. I also like the flashbacks to Z in Super that are not reanimated. It's a nice way of marrying the old and the new.
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- MCDaveG
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Lot of the past villain nonsense in GT lines up with the movies and filler, written by the same staff and the direction at that time. Basically, Freeza's treatment in the end of Cell arc and Movie 12 is "canon" or better, in line to his treatment in GT. Unless he trained in hell to be Golden Freeza.
In Cell arc, when Trunks shown up, I was mind blown and it worked. Freeza, being the main villain gets sliced and diced by some mysterious teen who can go SSJ. I was riveted to the screen when it aired and sure, Trunks was hell of a cool character to me, complete with his design, adding some variety to the Saiyans. Aaand the rest of the in my opinion, kinda flawed filler writing of shoehorning past characters back for the sake of it even tho they can't possibly be relevant in their past states, that's history.
This also didn't helped with my personal reception of Ressurection F... as in the franchise, Freeza wasted so many chances of ressurecting himself before. But I loved him being part of the heroes team in TOP and being his asshole himself afterwards with his own goals and playing it kinda safe in contrast to Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Vegeta and pretty much everyone not being Goku's family.
I don't despise the Super 17 arc, it has some cool visual moments, I love the GT designs and to me GT is kind of a mindless comfort food of the franchise with a huge nostalgia. My biggest problem with it is the treatment of the good 17 from the Z, who gave power to genkidama, as a villain and nobody trying to save him. He's absorbed, therefore lost, let's kill him as he is Super 17 now.
I don't know if the writing is that bad, as 17 arc is clearly a clunky set up to the Dragons Arc, as basically the aftermath of that skirmish is the heroes trying to fix things up with Dragon Balls and it backfires... so maybe they would have revived 17 again like in Cell arc if given the chance? And I don't remember the ending now, Shenron is making last wish before disappearing with Goku for good no? Is there some shot or aftermath of that wish shown even briefly before going to the future with Goku and Vegeta Juniors?
The reasoning behind the arc is otherwise clear to me. Piccolo has sacrificed himself and issue with black star Dragon Balls is over. We need a huge reason for the characters to hunt the DBs again and they will crack and unleash a whole new threath, so here we go with some old and powered up villains to wreck the world, so it needs fixing.
In Cell arc, when Trunks shown up, I was mind blown and it worked. Freeza, being the main villain gets sliced and diced by some mysterious teen who can go SSJ. I was riveted to the screen when it aired and sure, Trunks was hell of a cool character to me, complete with his design, adding some variety to the Saiyans. Aaand the rest of the in my opinion, kinda flawed filler writing of shoehorning past characters back for the sake of it even tho they can't possibly be relevant in their past states, that's history.
This also didn't helped with my personal reception of Ressurection F... as in the franchise, Freeza wasted so many chances of ressurecting himself before. But I loved him being part of the heroes team in TOP and being his asshole himself afterwards with his own goals and playing it kinda safe in contrast to Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Vegeta and pretty much everyone not being Goku's family.
I don't despise the Super 17 arc, it has some cool visual moments, I love the GT designs and to me GT is kind of a mindless comfort food of the franchise with a huge nostalgia. My biggest problem with it is the treatment of the good 17 from the Z, who gave power to genkidama, as a villain and nobody trying to save him. He's absorbed, therefore lost, let's kill him as he is Super 17 now.
I don't know if the writing is that bad, as 17 arc is clearly a clunky set up to the Dragons Arc, as basically the aftermath of that skirmish is the heroes trying to fix things up with Dragon Balls and it backfires... so maybe they would have revived 17 again like in Cell arc if given the chance? And I don't remember the ending now, Shenron is making last wish before disappearing with Goku for good no? Is there some shot or aftermath of that wish shown even briefly before going to the future with Goku and Vegeta Juniors?
The reasoning behind the arc is otherwise clear to me. Piccolo has sacrificed himself and issue with black star Dragon Balls is over. We need a huge reason for the characters to hunt the DBs again and they will crack and unleash a whole new threath, so here we go with some old and powered up villains to wreck the world, so it needs fixing.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Yeah, that's what sucks the most for me, they made Trunks' entire journey in the Cell Arc pointless because they ruined his happy ending, his entire world got destroyed and turned into such a waste that it got erased from existence, what good was his experience if he is not even able to defend his own world?sunsetshimmer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 6:29 am True. Regardless of how much you liked or not majority of Zamasu arc, it has easily the worst ending in history. It made entire fight, everything that happened pointless. Goku could've pressed that button at the very first occasion and nothing would've changed. Someone could say "well they tried to save that timeline" but there wasn't much to save anyway. Almost enitre population was dead, gods included, so it's not like killing Zamasu would turn everything back to normal and Goku didn't even keep that button as a last resort if they couldn't beat Zamasu. He just randomly found it and thought "hey maybe i will just summon Zeno lol".
- MCDaveG
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Trunks’ future was already grim to begin with… all the main characters he met in “current” timeline, were basically dead.
He was this lone swordsman/ronin character another slash, typical sci-fi crap future protagonist who comes in to at least save these people in a way that is already impossible for him.
It struck me even more with the Trunks DLC in Kakarot, how lonely his world is without dragon balls and everyone, even the fricking Kaioshin dies when they fight Buu.
So yeah, even tho I got lost a lot in the anime version and don’t remember how it ended exactly, it ended even worse for him. His mom died, he is dating granny in younger body as the whole Pilaf gang situation in anime series doesn’t make sense and is kinda pissing me off and they get transported into a world, where there already is one Trunks, so well, they have their lives at least, but from real world perspective, what life is that? You basically don’t belong, unless being able to create false identity and build new friendships.
For how much credit Zamasu as a villain gets, this arc is quite a mess.
I can see them jumping the gun, not being able to mess with current timeline in the 10 year period, therefore they make a hell out of Future one. And everyone else, except for Trunks, lives happy
He was this lone swordsman/ronin character another slash, typical sci-fi crap future protagonist who comes in to at least save these people in a way that is already impossible for him.
It struck me even more with the Trunks DLC in Kakarot, how lonely his world is without dragon balls and everyone, even the fricking Kaioshin dies when they fight Buu.
So yeah, even tho I got lost a lot in the anime version and don’t remember how it ended exactly, it ended even worse for him. His mom died, he is dating granny in younger body as the whole Pilaf gang situation in anime series doesn’t make sense and is kinda pissing me off and they get transported into a world, where there already is one Trunks, so well, they have their lives at least, but from real world perspective, what life is that? You basically don’t belong, unless being able to create false identity and build new friendships.
For how much credit Zamasu as a villain gets, this arc is quite a mess.
I can see them jumping the gun, not being able to mess with current timeline in the 10 year period, therefore they make a hell out of Future one. And everyone else, except for Trunks, lives happy
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Why does this bother people so much? I've never understood why there being two Trunks's bothers anyone. Also, I don't recall this being in the anime. Maybe it's in the manga, but I don't think it's in the anime.anime series doesn’t make sense and is kinda pissing me off and they get transported into a world, where there already is one Trunks. You basically don’t belong, unless being able to create false identity and build new friendships.
For how much credit Zamasu as a villain gets, this arc is quite a mess.
This reminds me of the story of Crispin Glover telling the writer and or director of Back to the Future that the movie is really sad because Marty goes back to a 1985 he doesn't know. He has a family that would have very different experiences than his own. Isn't that sad? Their reply was "I get what you're saying, but it's not that kind of story."
It's a time travel story and by their nature, they don't make sense when you think too hard on them. They operate on fridge logic. I seem to be in the minority on this.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Even before the Xenos wiped out his universe Future Trunks had already lost everyone he knew and loved aside from Mai. I'm not sure having his universe removed from existence is anymore sad than everything else preceding it.
And Future Trunks' journey in the Cell saga was ultimately about preventing another timeline from having the same future he suffered through. So nothing about the Zamazu arc actually renders his actions in the Cell saga pointless. We had a whole episode of Future Trunks coming to terms with a timeline where Gohan had become a non-martial arts academic dork and that was better than him being the warrior from his timeline because at least he's alive and happy and has a family, which kind of felt like a reinforcement of that journey.
And Future Trunks' journey in the Cell saga was ultimately about preventing another timeline from having the same future he suffered through. So nothing about the Zamazu arc actually renders his actions in the Cell saga pointless. We had a whole episode of Future Trunks coming to terms with a timeline where Gohan had become a non-martial arts academic dork and that was better than him being the warrior from his timeline because at least he's alive and happy and has a family, which kind of felt like a reinforcement of that journey.
Last edited by MasenkoHA on Sun Oct 30, 2022 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
I don’t have problems with the manga version… the anime is messy on many levels.ABED wrote: ↑Sun Oct 30, 2022 8:14 pmWhy does this bother people so much? I've never understood why there being two Trunks's bothers anyone. Also, I don't recall this being in the anime. Maybe it's in the manga, but I don't think it's in the anime.anime series doesn’t make sense and is kinda pissing me off and they get transported into a world, where there already is one Trunks. You basically don’t belong, unless being able to create false identity and build new friendships.
For how much credit Zamasu as a villain gets, this arc is quite a mess.
This reminds me of the story of Crispin Glover telling the writer and or director of Back to the Future that the movie is really sad because Marty goes back to a 1985 he doesn't know. He has a family that would have very different experiences than his own. Isn't that sad? Their reply was "I get what you're saying, but it's not that kind of story."
It's a time travel story and by their nature, they don't make sense when you think too hard on them. They operate on fridge logic. I seem to be in the minority on this.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
He has but he has also involved character drama that naturally led up to character development both mentally and physically in the past. But that notion seems to be lost in the new movie.
I understand that Gohan leading in the movie wasnt his original idea and the sudden unearned new form certainly lends credence to that fact. But Piccolo getting a new form from a wish just because he wanted his potential unlocked seems sloppy to me at least compared to his past usages of transformations. Like Goku SS1, Gohans SS2 and even Majin Vegeta transformations. All having competent character arcs behind them.
And dont tell me there wasnt enough time in the movie it certainly was and pertains back to my original comment.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Well my unpopular opinion is that said drama shouldn't be mandatory for every single DB story element to work, in fact in this very movie we had plenty of drama focused power ups, making Piccolo's something more than the realization of what he had in the middle of the Gamma fight (which had great character significance given his connection to Shenlong, former demonic nature/godhood, and status as the "super namekian") would have left the movie feeling a bit too heavy, i'm fine with him getting the initial stepping stone power up the way he did, it's not like if this hasn't been done before in DB, the movie makes it clear it is the same as if the Grand Elder did it, just like it happened to Gohan and Krillin, or just like the off-screen training Gohan got to get his stepping stone SSJ form before SSJ2.Zekken wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 8:49 amHe has but he has also involved character drama that naturally led up to character development both mentally and physically in the past. But that notion seems to be lost in the new movie.
I understand that Gohan leading in the movie wasnt his original idea and the sudden unearned new form certainly lends credence to that fact. But Piccolo getting a new form from a wish just because he wanted his potential unlocked seems sloppy to me at least compared to his past usages of transformations. Like Goku SS1, Gohans SS2 and even Majin Vegeta transformations. All having competent character arcs behind them.
And dont tell me there wasnt enough time in the movie it certainly was and pertains back to my original comment.
Not every transformation was a drama fest, even with serious characters.
Also Piccolo in DBS was shown sparring with Ultimate Gohan and potrayed as somewhat relative to him, so gaining this power jump isn't too out of the ordinary for Piccolo this late in the game.
And i'm just so happy that he's up there with Goku again, finally DBS material can stop being just the Goku and Vegeta show but that's just me being too optimistic.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Unpopular opinion: I actually like Dragon Ball's use of the "pummel duel" trope. You know, this shit:
True, there are many lazy instances where it's used to pad out fights (hence the derogatory "ATATATATA" meme from Super), but there's something so very satisfying about seeing two evenly-matched fighters messily wail on each other, as many real life brawls tend to devolve into. I especially like when an underdog scrapper somehow squares up with a much stronger fighter, like with the Freeza vs. Jiren example above.
True, there are many lazy instances where it's used to pad out fights (hence the derogatory "ATATATATA" meme from Super), but there's something so very satisfying about seeing two evenly-matched fighters messily wail on each other, as many real life brawls tend to devolve into. I especially like when an underdog scrapper somehow squares up with a much stronger fighter, like with the Freeza vs. Jiren example above.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
I think the "pummel duels" (I forget what they're called in the games) only became a tired trope in Super because most of them looked the same. I think every "Shot exchange" (ah! there it is!) in the original series had its own unique spin to it and I don't recall Goku going "ATATATATA" in everyone of them either.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Those flurries are drawing on similar panels in the manga—showing two characters exchanging blows accompanied by a cluster of other impact starbursts, etc.—and I think that, while they can be overused, they’re a really effective and distinct way of illustrating the speed of Dragon Ball’s battles. As long as they’re peppered between more distinct choreography, they totally work.
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Yh that connection is not good enough, like what does it even mean? It's so vague and unexplained no one could have foresaw this happening, its not an "aha" moment (like when babidi's magic worked on vegeta cuz we saw earlier with spopovich he could draw out evil in people) It's an "i guess" moment cuz the lore is so lightly touched upon and lacks explanation. It could lead to more in the future but in the moment it did not hit the way it needed to.Ashur wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:50 pmWell my unpopular opinion is that said drama shouldn't be mandatory for every single DB story element to work, in fact in this very movie we had plenty of drama focused power ups, making Piccolo's something more than the realization of what he had in the middle of the Gamma fight (which had great character significance given his connection to Shenlong, former demonic nature/godhood, and status as the "super namekian")Zekken wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 8:49 amHe has but he has also involved character drama that naturally led up to character development both mentally and physically in the past. But that notion seems to be lost in the new movie.
I understand that Gohan leading in the movie wasnt his original idea and the sudden unearned new form certainly lends credence to that fact. But Piccolo getting a new form from a wish just because he wanted his potential unlocked seems sloppy to me at least compared to his past usages of transformations. Like Goku SS1, Gohans SS2 and even Majin Vegeta transformations. All having competent character arcs behind them.
And dont tell me there wasnt enough time in the movie it certainly was and pertains back to my original comment.
Guru's power ups were not significant enough to the story and not transformations so they dont relate to this discussion. And by that time in the cell saga super saiyan for Gohan was as you said a stepping stone, a formality so naturally we didnt need something(+ the anime fixed it) so that is not relatable to the Orange Piccolo discussion either.
Not every transformation was a drama fest
Ur correct..... but the important ones were. And this transformation to Piccolo was important but it did not hit the same as Goku SS, Gohan SS2, Majin Vegeta, Vegito..
And the whole Piccolo trained with gohan is totally irrelevant, I'm not discussing the sensibility of power levels.
Better to have tried and failed
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