Do you want a spin-off about Gohan?

[Cursed Lemon]

That wasn't the question. Lol

You know, the longer I post on this forum, the more I'm convinced that hardcore DB fans actually think DB is terrible while at the same time being fiercely protective of its terribleness.

[Izanagi]

No. Gohan was easily the weakest part of Super Hero and held it back from being truly great. It also made me realize Toriyama wasn't wrong about Gohan being unsuited as the MC. He's a passive character because he doesn't have any goals that pushes him forward towards something. He finds himself in a situation which forces him to take action.

I'd rather have a spin-off about Piccolo or Freeza than Gohan. He almost single-handedly carried Super Hero.

[Majin Buu]

You know, the longer I post on this forum, the more I'm convinced that hardcore DB fans actually think DB is terrible while at the same time being fiercely protective of its terribleness.

Says the guy that responded to a simple question with a deflection.

[MasenkoHA]

That wasn't the question. Lol

You know, the longer I post on this forum, the more I'm convinced that hardcore DB fans actually think DB is terrible while at the same time being fiercely protective of its terribleness.

Wild how this observation of yours has nothing to do with my question of how a theoretical spin off starring Vegeta would be any different than Dragon Ball Super in its current state where he's already sharing main character status with Goku.

[Cursed Lemon]

Wild how this observation of yours has nothing to do with my question of how a theoretical spin off starring Vegeta would be any different than Dragon Ball Super in its current state where he's already sharing main character status with Goku.

Says the guy that responded to a simple question with a deflection.

I'm sick and tired of explaining to people on this forum that people actually like the supporting characters of Dragon Ball and want to see them meaningfully contribute and be featured. The fact that I have have to explain that people would absolutely lose their minds at a Vegeta movie (or that the two Goku-centric Super movies are widely regarded as mid as fuck) gives me second-hand embarrassment. "This is the Goku show and we can't change anything because I say we can't because for some reason I'm committed to this stale formula and won't entertain the idea of diversifying and amplifying the supporting cast. Why? BECAUSE."

Then I get asked "why would a Vegeta movie solve the problem of him regularly being relegated to Goku's lay-up man" like that's a serious question.

[PurestEvil]

I think a non-Saiyan would be a more intriguing protagonist to a spin-off than Gohan. Maybe someone like Piccolo or Uub...

[ABED]

I'm sick and tired of explaining to people on this forum that people actually like the supporting characters of Dragon Ball and want to see them meaningfully contribute and be featured. The fact that I have have to explain that people would absolutely lose their minds at a Vegeta movie (or that the two Goku-centric Super movies are widely regarded as mid as fuck) gives me second-hand embarrassment. "This is the Goku show and we can't change anything because I say we can't because for some reason I'm committed to this stale formula and won't entertain the idea of diversifying and amplifying the supporting cast. Why? BECAUSE."

Then I get asked "why would a Vegeta movie solve the problem of him regularly being relegated to Goku's lay-up man" like that's a serious question.

I think you're building a strawman. The other characters don't have to have their own show to play a meaningful part on the story or have a meaningful arc.

Battle of Gods isn't considered mid. It's well liked.

And who is claiming that other characters can't be amplified and yet keep the central character central? Dragon Ball isn't stale because of Goku. It's stale because it's decades old. Nothing gold can stay, Ponyboy.

Supporting casts don't need to be the ones to deliver the killing blow or solve the problem to have meaningful stories. They simply need to have some meaningful change.

[MasenkoHA]

I'm sick and tired of explaining to people on this forum that people actually like the supporting characters of Dragon Ball and want to see them meaningfully contribute and be featured.

Literally nobody said that people didn't like the supporting characters in Dragon Ball.

Incidentally guess which character is NOT a supporting a character, at least not in the current era

Hint: It's Vegeta.

.The fact that I have have to explain that people would absolutely lose their minds at a Vegeta movie (or that the two Goku-centric Super movies are widely regarded as mid as fuck) gives me second-hand embarrassment. "This is the Goku show and we can't change anything because I say we can't because for some reason I'm committed to this stale formula and won't entertain the idea of diversifying and amplifying the supporting cast. Why? BECAUSE."

Then I get asked "why would a Vegeta movie solve the problem of him regularly being relegated to Goku's lay-up man" like that's a serious question.

No the whole argument being made to you is there is no point in a spin off starring Vegeta when he's already a main character. Of all the characters getting shafted it sure as hell isn't Vegeta.

[Grimlock]

The other characters don't have (...)

Supporting casts don't need (...)

But isn't good, once in a while, when these characters are given these opportunities? "Need" and "have" may not be what they're talking about, maybe people just want these characters to do something for a change. Not necessarily all the time, occasionally. If it's possible to have a tale where they can "deliver the killing blow or solve the problem" in the vast wave of tales, why not? What harm could/would come from that?

Dragon Ball isn't stale because of Goku. It's stale because it's decades old. Nothing gold can stay, Ponyboy.

I would say it's stale for both reasons. I have yet to see evidences that Dragon Ball would be stale with another character. And since this is obviously one of those things we won't know until we get it, I say we get it. Test the waters. Gold can be "refined", reshaped... It can become something else, maybe without losing what makes it "gold". If it can't become something else, then that's probably a sign this gold should be put away...

Then again, we have to know what we are dealing with before deciding anything. Take Vegeta for example, he is the deuteragonist of this franchise. A spin-off about him set in current days is not something I would particularly be excited about, he is everywhere. But a spin-off set in his childhood might be cool. We barely saw him in his early years... That would have my interest in seeing it. There are other factors than just "which character(s) should be portrayed?" to consider.

[ABED]

I don't recall anyone claiming they shouldn't be given these moments in the spotlight to be the hero every once in a while. I've been probably the loudest one saying Goku is the main character and that shouldn't change, but yet I don't recall ever saying once in a while have someone else deliver the coup de grace.

The mere fact that Vegeta is the co-lead is in itself a significant change.

What about Goku is keeping DB stale that is somehow solved by putting someone else in that lead spot?

[Grimlock]

His overall personality and characterization. With the exception of Dragon Ball Heroes, they haven't done anything remotely interesting or good with Goku's character in recent memory. I would say he's the very same, if it wasn't for Dragon Ball Super somehow making him act so... off.

I do acknowledge this might change in the future, thanks to Toyotaro and his Granolah saga. Goku remembering everything should cause something, an impact, a change... Anything. Now that he knows what it means to be a Saiyan, and has brief recollections of his parents, I'm hopeful this will lead somewhere, and that's what I'm looking forward to. It was the missing piece for Goku. But firstly, Granolah saga needs to be animated, secondly, this major turning point for Goku needs a pay-off (which Granolah saga unfortunately doesn't do).

Other than that, I don't know what would solve by putting another character in the lead. I may have ideas if it's someone like Bardock, Trunks, Uub... but as far as other characters are concerned, I don't know. I won't know until I get it, test the waters.

[Saiya6Cit]

Ah I almost forgot to mention for the Gohan spin off after DBS Super herow movie, have Gohan and Videl to have a second child.


Thank you

[LoganForkHands73]

At this point, I'm firmly in the "changing leads or at the very least giving them something meaningful to do can actually be a good" camp with Grimlock and Lemon. Super Hero proved it can work. Goku and Vegeta will always be there, but I hope it paves the way for more development for other characters, and if nothing else it can give the writers more of a fun challenge.

As for Vegeta specifically, I still wonder what Toriyama had planned for him when he said he wanted to put him in the starring role of a movie. I suppose it naturally evolved into him becoming the permanent deuteragonist. The U6 arc was very Vegeta centric. Toyotaro has probably given Vegeta the most sugar in his latest arcs.

[ABED]

People said the same about the Trunks and Bardock special, but a 45 minute TV special or 90 minute movie don't constitute conclusive proof. I could point to the time Gohan was the lead as proof that he doesn't work LONG TERM as the lead.

The lead of a story doesn't have to change. Someone or something has to but there's no rule that says it has to be the lead.

Lastly, Gohan and Vegeta changed in VERY meaningful ways in Super that I don't think are given their proper due by Super's detractors. Gohan combining combat with his book smarts is a great evolution. And Vegeta even implying that he's open to being a mentor is a seismic shift in his character. Neither example required Goku to no longer be the lead.

Dragon Ball is stale because it's 40 years old. Putting someone else in the lead will not bring back that specialness. It's a paintjob on the car, but underneath it's the same engine.

[Cursed Lemon]

"Lemon you're building a straw-man"

*proceeds to write multiple paragraphs on why this is the Goku show and other characters aren't allowed to take the reins*

Like

And as far as Vegeta not getting the shaft, getting only half of the shaft that the other characters get is not an endorsement. Super Broly finally put some sizzle on Vegeta's name because they built an entire sequence for him that made us respect him, instead of making him out to be Dragon Ball's version of Weiss Schnee. Other than that, Vegeta's presence in the Dragon Ball franchise after the saiyan saga can be summed up in three steps:

1. Back off Kakarot, this fool is no match for me
2. *chorus of bones breaking*
3. Whatever you still suck Kakarot

That's stupid as shit and a complete waste.

[ABED]

"Lemon you're building a straw-man"

*proceeds to write multiple paragraphs on why this is the Goku show and other characters aren't allowed to take the reins*

Like

And as far as Vegeta not getting the shaft, getting only half of the shaft that the other characters get is not an endorsement. Super Broly finally put some sizzle on Vegeta's name because they built an entire sequence for him that made us respect him, instead of making him out to be Dragon Ball's version of Weiss Schnee. Other than that, Vegeta's presence in the Dragon Ball franchise after the saiyan saga can be summed up in three steps:

1. Back off Kakarot, this fool is no match for me
2. *chorus of bones breaking*
3. Whatever you still suck Kakarot

That's stupid as shit and a complete waste.

This is very disingenuous. I never said they can't take the reins temporarily or they can't do anything meaningful. I pointed out Vegeta and Gohan's character arcs which I was a huge fan of. My favorite part of the series is OG Dragon Ball through the Freeza arc in part because it does a good job of giving characters interesting and meaningful things to do. It did all that and Goku was still the lead. It didn't seem like you took the time to read it at all. You skimmed through. If this is what you're going to do, then I'm bowing out since there's no constructive conversation to be had.

[Grimlock]

At this point, I'm firmly in the "changing leads or at the very least giving them something meaningful to do can actually be a good" camp with Grimlock and Lemon. Super Hero proved it can work.

Maybe ABED is right and characters like Bardock, Trunks, Gohan, Piccolo... only work as the lead because it's not "long term". But then I have to ask you too what we should do about it. Maybe being "long term" is what causing harm and not having anything to "counter" it.

People said the same about the Trunks and Bardock special, but a 45 minute TV special or 90 minute movie aren't proof. I could point to the time Gohan was the lead as proof that he doesn't work LONG TERM as the lead.

Maybe that's the issue. Should Dragon Ball continue to be "long term"? Should it continue to be "long term" but sporadically having a forty-five minute TV Special or ninety-minute movie spin-off? What can we do? What can we have? What can we work with that might get more people happy?

Lastly, Gohan and Vegeta changed in VERY meaningful ways in Super that I don't think are given their proper due by Super's detractors. Gohan combining combat with his book smarts is a great evolution. And Vegeta even implying that he's open to being a mentor is a seismic shift in his character. Neither example required Goku to no longer be the lead.

Gohan has been sidelined for a long period. While that combination works, it's not like we had a Dragon Ball Super Super Hero-event at some point during 2015-2018. His only major fight in that point was in Movie 15, which I don't think even his fans like to remember (I think Gohan did something in the Universe Survival saga, but at this point I don't know anymore). The contributions from his "book smarts" side aren't really worthwhile either. And they won't be until we reach Dragon Ball Online... Where all his study will be useful.

I'll give you Vegeta, of course. I don't have a problem with modern Vegeta (other than his design...), he's one of the very few that weren't screwed over badly (and we have Xeno Vegeta!).

Putting someone else in the lead will not bring back that specialness. It's a paintjob on the car, but underneath it's the same engine.

What kind of "specialness" are you talking about? What kind of "specialness" are we individually and collectively seeking?

I seek a "grounded" light-hearted series about kids and teens having their own (solo and together) adventures. Which is something I think I can and would find in a series about Uub, Pan, Bra, Marron, Goten and Trunks.

(Uub as the lead would logically mean we wouldn't have to put up with a protagonist pulling transformations out of his ass left and right. That's something that would become better. But watch them coming up with endless human transformations just because he became the protagonist ).

I also seek Dragon Ball to be more like comic books. Which is something I already found in a way, to some little extent (but in a series solely for a Japanese audience and it's promotional), that would take itself more serious than the usual (which is also something I already found and it worked before).

These two scenarios above would be my specialness.

[ABED]

The contributions from his "book smarts" side aren't really worthwhile either.

Becoming a better fighter and eliminating a powerful fighter from the tournament is a great contribution. I think we need to get away from viewing things purely from a plot perspective. Perhaps those things aren't huge in the grand plotting of the TOP arc, but for Gohan's character, putting it all together and being a valuable member of the team is a lot. It's the logical direction for his character to take that doesn't foresake anything that had come before. He's not just his father's son. He's his own person.

What can we do?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. We're fans. All we can do is choose to not watch.

[LoganForkHands73]

At this point, I'm firmly in the "changing leads or at the very least giving them something meaningful to do can actually be a good" camp with Grimlock and Lemon. Super Hero proved it can work.

Maybe ABED is right and characters like Bardock, Trunks, Gohan, Piccolo... only work as the lead because it's not "long term". But then I have to ask you too what we should do about it. Maybe being "long term" is what causing harm and not having anything to "counter" it.

Not sure what you're asking me. Are you saying the perpetuality of the franchise is the problem? If so, there's nothing we can do about that.

[ABED]

At this point, I'm firmly in the "changing leads or at the very least giving them something meaningful to do can actually be a good" camp with Grimlock and Lemon. Super Hero proved it can work.

Maybe ABED is right and characters like Bardock, Trunks, Gohan, Piccolo... only work as the lead because it's not "long term". But then I have to ask you too what we should do about it. Maybe being "long term" is what causing harm and not having anything to "counter" it.

Not sure what you're asking me. Are you saying the perpetuality of the franchise is the problem? If so, there's nothing we can do about that.

Beyond voting with our wallet, we can't really do anything regardless. I'm not sure what you're implying.