Do you prefer the idea Saiyans are pure evil or generally redeemable?

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Kind of branching off the Bardock thread I was thinking a discussion about the Saiyan race in general was in order.

We of course know Goku became good ironically because of hitting his head, whereas Vegeta was left with nothing else to live for other than satisfy the destiny he believed to be his birthright of becoming a Super Saiyan, and naturally because he spent so much time on Earth he warmed up to the people around him. Both have widely been accepted by the fandom as natural, organic character progressions for decades.

When we get to anything from the revival era like Toriyama's Bardock or Tarble it becomes arguably more controversial.

We see Bardock for the first time showing compassion for Goku, although morally he still leans more towards evil as he's seen slaughtering aliens with a smile on his face in the first page of Dragon Ball Minus. It was also well established that Freeza did not brainwash the saiyans, but rather encouraged their vicious ways. The Daizenshuu 7 timeline tells us prior to joining Freeza, the Saiyans did in fact began conquering planets on their own. Toriyama also explained in the Super Exciting Guides saiyans have always lived the way they did travelling from planet to planet stealing resources.

Tarble was in fact meant to be the inverse of everything the Saiyans were meant to be. He wasn't blood thirsty and had no interest in fighting. Now, I know it's stated Vegeta has a brother in Battle of Gods, but crucially Tarble is not mentioned by name, so since there's a precedent for rewriting history in modern Dragon Ball there's no reason to doubt Tarble could be written out of the continuity for now as we haven't heard anything about him since 2008. The Universe 6 saiyans seem to have taken the place of the "what if the saiyans were good people?" concept, and Cabba, for all intents and purposes, despite not being Vegeta's brother does seem to be essentially a Tarble reboot.

I understand on one hand some might feel that any implications saiyans had soft sides humanizes them, and I'm not saying all of them have to be irredeemable, but just that it has to be earned. With Vegeta I think it was earned, of course in the Androids arc he's more of an anti-hero and sides with the good characters out of convenience, but we see more along his journey that make his redemption believable. Being killed by Freeza and revived likely thought him to appreciate life more, and learning he had a son from the future who he saw get killed by Cell are logical triggers that could make him rethink his life, which ultimately culminated with his sacrifice in the Boo arc where he shallows his pride and dies to protect others rather than himself.

I still think the idea of Universe 7 saiyans being almost entirely a race of barbaric, merciless, bullies is far more compelling and better for the story overall. It makes Goku's character arc all the more compelling as he grows to become the opposite of what he was meant to be, seeking battle for friendship and sport rather than dominance and torture. Goku's parents being kind, loving people only makes his journey feel more like a foregone conclusion. Indeed Tullece in Tree of Might was a nice "what if Goku never hit his head" that wouldn't have been as effective had there been any other way Goku could have had a change of heart.

But what does everyone else think? Does saiyans without accidents like Goku had or journeys like Vegeta innately having a different side to them make sense or do you prefer them being entirely malevolent in the absence of such changes?

[Luso Saiyan]

I don't think of the Saiyans as pure evil and it never crossed my mind that they were irredeemable or incapable of kindness and compassion. They are generally cold, amoral, agressive and not very bright. It's the result of the culture and environment they developed for themselves and are raised on. And I don't think Toriyama deviated from that. He's always been consistent in that regard. Bardock is an exception in some of those characteristics, but he stills has typical Saiyan traits. He's a bit brighter in intelect and more stoic, but he's not that much of an anomaly like some people think.

[Grimlock]

We see Bardock for the first time showing compassion for Goku, although morally he still leans more towards evil as he's seen slaughtering aliens with a smile on his face in the first page of Dragon Ball Minus.

Technically, the first time we saw Bardock showing compassion for Goku was in Dragon Ball Online. He not only tries to ensure Goku's well being during Freeza saga, but his last words before self-sacrificing was for Goku to take care of himself.

The Daizenshuu 7 timeline tells us prior to joining Freeza, the Saiyans did in fact began conquering planets on their own. Toriyama also explained in the Super Exciting Guides saiyans have always lived the way they did travelling from planet to planet stealing resources.

This is supported by Bardock himself, who says that before King Cold appeared, they were already conquering planets (though we still don't know how they did that. Are we supposed to assume there are Saiyan scientists or something?).

Now, I know it's stated Vegeta has a brother in Battle of Gods, but crucially Tarble is not mentioned by name, so since there's a precedent for rewriting history in modern Dragon Ball there's no reason to doubt Tarble could be written out of the continuity for now as we haven't heard anything about him since 2008.

Tarble is mentioned in Dragon Ball Super Broly too. I doubt they want to write him out since they bothered to mention him again (his name appears in a promotional material for the movie).

[Kaboom]

"Pure evil" would be a pretty big stretch. I mean they're not pre-programmed for genocide like Cell, or force-of-nature avatars of bloodshed and destruction like Majin Boo. They just have a natural drive for combat, which makes it very easy for them to slide into evil territory to scratch that itch. But they're obviously not above redemption and finding other outlets for those impulses, as Goku's head-injury circumstances and Vegeta's gradual face-turn show.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I will concede pure evil might be pushing it a bit. I think of this sort of in the same way I do when people ask should Freeza be redeemed since the Tournament of Power. Some characters are better left irredeemable, but as I say that's not necessarily saying that must hold true in all cases for the Saiyan race, but I'd argue it should for most.

As I've said before what I think is fantastic in the two main character's arcs is the unlikelihood of Goku becoming who he became based on his background and how Vegeta's redemption works better because of everything that happened since he came to Earth for the first time. But should these cases be the norm or a rarity? I personally think the latter is far more profound and compelling.

In the new revival era there has been more efforts to romanticise the Saiyans as we've seen with Bardock and Gine's relationship and the God ritual requiring good Saiyans, implying there was a historical precedent for it, something that was never established in the original manga or anime continuities. I'm just wondering does anyone else think this cheapens Goku and Vegeta's journeys in the long run?

[Luso Saiyan]

This is supported by Bardock himself, who says that before King Cold appeared, they were already conquering planets (though we still don't know how they did that. Are we supposed to assume there are Saiyan scientists or something?).

Yes, they were not cavemen:

While their science isn’t all that advanced, I think they are ahead of Earth when it comes to spaceships and combat stuff, since they’ve been attacking other planets since way back when. But afterwards they joined the army of Freeza’s father Cold, which had vastly more advanced science than they did. Cold’s army provided them with virtually all of their weapons, armor, machines, etc.

Source

[ABED]

I always preferred the idea that they just stole the Tsufuruian tech. A race of brutes doesn't strike me as being innovative.

[PurestEvil]

I always preferred the idea that they just stole the Tsufuruian tech. A race of brutes doesn't strike me as being innovative.

I wonder if that was what the chimpanzees thought of us 100 millennia ago ;D

[BWri]

I like Toei's idea of what Saiyans were which is just an extension of how Toriyama-san used to write them. The idea that they were this brutish, brutal race who only used advanced technology to indulge in their hedonistic desire to conquer, maim, and destroy. The "evil" is baked into their culture but I think that with a more loving, gentle environment that you'd see a lot more compassionate Saiyans. I think Vegeta proves that as he is the apex of their culture and represented their values well throughout his run in Z.

[Grimlock]

Yes, they were not cavemen:

While their science isn’t all that advanced, I think they are ahead of Earth when it comes to spaceships and combat stuff, since they’ve been attacking other planets since way back when. But afterwards they joined the army of Freeza’s father Cold, which had vastly more advanced science than they did. Cold’s army provided them with virtually all of their weapons, armor, machines, etc.

Source

I guess then it's just hard for me to imagine anything connecting the Saiyan race with technology (that doesn't come from other races). Then again, it's not my fault. We don't have a single image of a Saiyan scientist doing something. All we have are Tsufurujins and King Cold's race in the picture, so I've always been led to think Saiyans used their technologies. This just goes to show that Saiyans should have been given a more appropriate screentime and development, not these "bits and pieces" we often get but that still don't tell us much about them...

[miguelnuva1]

The saiyans were literally us Earthlings with super power and better technology. We all went around stealing land and resources at some point in history. In addition they were a warrior race where humans were not.

So yes I think their should always been good or redeemable saiyans.

[Hulk10]

The saiyans were literally us Earthlings with super power and better technology. We all went around stealing land and resources at some point in history. In addition they were a warrior race where humans were not.

So yes I think their should always been good or redeemable saiyans.

I must agree.

[Cursed Lemon]

I think the saiyans are pretty consistently depicted. You need look no further than certain current events to show that human beings love to go cause atrocities in their neighbors' yard, generally speaking the saiyans are shown to be similar to that while being fairly domesticated at home. The duality of their species is fairly well spelled out.

[ABED]

I always preferred the idea that they just stole the Tsufuruian tech. A race of brutes doesn't strike me as being innovative.

I wonder if that was what the chimpanzees thought of us 100 millennia ago ;D

Not sure what you're getting at here.

[PurestEvil]

I always preferred the idea that they just stole the Tsufuruian tech. A race of brutes doesn't strike me as being innovative.

I wonder if that was what the chimpanzees thought of us 100 millennia ago ;D

Not sure what you're getting at here.

I was just joking

[TheGreatness25]

I don't think that Saiyans were irredeemable simply because Vegeta did change all on his own (despite the circumstances, an "irredeemable" character... just wouldn't be redeemable regardless).

With that said, I much prefer that Saiyans were basically brutes aimed at whatever their leader wanted destroyed. I think that the new Bardock and Gine are unnecessary and make the story much more cliché.

I never understood the need for more Bardock. I even felt that Episode of Bardock was pretty unnecessary.

But still, I don't really mind either version of the character. I think that the Bardock special was a great entry into the series while I generally don't feel anything for Minus or his inclusion in the Broli movie. So, while I prefer the "old" Bardock, I am indifferent, really.

[Luso Saiyan]

Then again, it's not my fault. We don't have a single image of a Saiyan scientist doing something. All we have are Tsufurujins and King Cold's race in the picture, so I've always been led to think Saiyans used their technologies.

They do use other people's technologies. That doesn't mean they don't have, or never had, their own technology.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I don't blame you for assuming something else, but it's far from being the only logical assumption based on what we know (I'm not including anime-only content).

[ClutchBangstrip]

'Doesn't matter to me. It all depends on how it's handled. Since neither rendition really goes far in depth on the species, I don't think I really care.

Maybe I prefer the redeemable angle only because I assume that's the modern version and the modern version's slightly more explored. This slight step in "a day in the life" depiction doesn't have much impactful difference than the old renditions except, the Saiyans are funnier. That's literally it. Both are so unexplored they have almost literally the same impact. One's slightly more "Seinfeldy", that's it.

Them being redeemable or evil, based off of what little material is available seems pointless. It's like knowing if a distant star is red or blue. That could be important... If it weren't distant. Toriyana has kept the people distant. Even the U6 Saiyans are barely explored.

This is not the case with Bardock, tho. He went from a very cool one-trick-pony, to a character you could base a series around. The problem is, there's no series... Yet.

[TobyS]

People forget Vegeta was an exceptional bastard by Saiyan standards so they shouldn't use him as an average.

[Anonymous Friend]

People forget Vegeta was an exceptional bastard by Saiyan standards so they shouldn't use him as an average.

Sure. But Vegeta was the stronger being on earth for quite some time and could have conquered it without much actual opposition. But that was probably the furthest thing from his mind.