Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

How strong was Gohan on Namek, calm and enraged, pre and post Zenkai? We know the baseline for his power level is 200,000; but anything after this is pretty muddy. He’s definitely stronger than Vegeta when enraged, but all he does is get Freeza by surprise. Post Zenkai he (probably enraged) managed to push back 3rd form Freeza, but then Freeza just bounced it back. Both times he fight Freeza he deals 0 damage to Freeza, but still compels him to transform nonetheless.

Last time I watched the Namek arc, I came up with these numbers:

Gohan:
-- after resting and whatnot before the Freeza fight: 300,000
-- rage boost vs 1st form Freeza: 900,000 and back to normal
-- after zenkai: 700,000
-- rage boost vs 3rd form Freeza: 2,100M
-- back on Earth: 1,500 M (a 2x zenkai boost seems ok, if at all, he didn't suffer enough to deserve a zenkai, so perhaps he is at 1M or less)

Piccolo: 1,200 M
-- weights off: 1,500 M

Freeza
2nd form: + 1 M
-- FP: 1,500M
-3rd form: 2,300 M
-4th form: 3,6 M

Gohan's rage boost seem to be strong enough to annoy Freeza to the point of transforming, even though he is never in real trouble.

How strong do you think Vegeta is? Between 2.3 and 3 million looks like a small spot for him.

-- vs Jeese: +50,000 (the fight didn't seem like Geets was many times stronger, not as strong as he was against Freeza anyway)

-- vs 1st form Freeza: +500,000 (a 10x boost after that well deserved nap)
The 250k figure doesn't match his performance against the 530k Freeza.
Before the real fight, I assume the full scope of Vegeta's zenkai was gradual due to lack of sleep(not that the nap itself caused his power to tenfold), he was more impressive after the nap. Or he was holding back before, which makes no sense, oneshotting people he hates would be the safest bet.

-- post Dende's zenkai: 2,800 M (+5x boost)
He thought he'd surpass 3rd form Freeza, which he comfortably did, and that he'd be a match for FF. He was not.
There's only so much room left for Geets, he should be below 3M, honestly. Strong enough to surpass the previous forms, weak enough to be Freeza's toy, who should be on par with a 3M-ish Goku.

I'm willing to move Goku up a bit, but he also shouldn't have much leeway, like 3,400M tops, SS multiplier does not have to be exactly a 50x boost (injuries, stamina issues, etc. could justify SS being less than 50x).
Goku did stand up to Freeza, who I could even downgrade to 3,5M or 3,4M even. If Goku and Freeza get closer to 4M, then SS starts to distance too much from the 50x boost, which is an arbitrary number provided by not-Tori, but I'd rather not tweak too much the only constant we all agree on.

[Goku9001]

This is my personal list:

Vegeta:
~(Post-Recoome): 50,000+
~(vs. Jeise): >90,000-250,000
~(vs. Frieza): 500,000
~(Post-Zenkai): 2,150,000

Piccolo:
~Initial: 275,000
~Kamiccolo: 550,000
~Post-Nail: 1,375,000

Frieza:
~2nd Form: 1,325,000
~3rd Form: 1,750,000
~Final Form (Initial): 2,150,000
~Final Form (Warm Up vs. Goku): 2,700,000
~Final Form (vs. Vegeta/No Hands): 3,200,000

Goku:
~Warm Up: 2,600,000
~Full Power: 3,000,000

[Noah]

Do you guys think Kamiccolo was strong enough to deal with the three Super Saiyans (Goku, Vegeta and Trunks) at the same time?

[DanielSSJ]

Do you guys think Kamiccolo was strong enough to deal with the three Super Saiyans (Goku, Vegeta and Trunks) at the same time?

Unlikely. During No.18's fight with Vegeta, No.17 says that even she probably couldn't handle the whole group at once.

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P1.1-3
Context: after Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn arrive
No.17: “My my, some help has arrived. Even No.18 probably won’t be able to take them all on. No choice, shall I go? Or will you go, No.16?”

Admittedly, No.18 isn't quite as strong as No.17, and by extension Piccolo, but I doubt the power difference would be enough to change the outcome, especially considering that Piccolo, unlike No.18, doesn't have infinite stamina.

[Koitsukai]

Do you guys think Kamiccolo was strong enough to deal with the three Super Saiyans (Goku, Vegeta and Trunks) at the same time?

The poster above me has a point. Apparently, 18 wasn't strong enough to deal with SS Trunks, SS Vegeta and some other fellas. Kamiccolo would lack the infinite stamina, so that also is against him.
At best, I think he might be able to defeat two of them, but coming out of that fight, battered as never before. As long as neither of those two he fights are the strongest. If it's heartache Goku and SS Trunks, I think Kamiccolo takes it.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Do you guys think Kamiccolo was strong enough to deal with the three Super Saiyans (Goku, Vegeta and Trunks) at the same time?

Maybe he’d have some work, but I don’t see him losing this. Trunks is said to be almost as strong as Vegeta, and he was taken out so easily it makes Vegeta vs 18 look like a sparring section. Trunks loses in 2 hits so it’s just Piccolo vs 2 guys somewhat above Trunks.

[DanielSSJ]

After a million fucking years, I finally made some decent headway on a new Battle Power list. It's not finished yet — it only goes up to the end of the Saiyan arc — but I'm planning on covering the entire manga this way. So let me know what you guys think!

[Koitsukai]

After a million fucking years, I finally made some decent headway on a new Battle Power list. It's not finished yet — it only goes up to the end of the Saiyan arc — but I'm planning on covering the entire manga this way. So let me know what you guys think!

I quite like it. I particularly liked how you dealt with the 400 PL cap that Raditz put on the guys. I think it makes sense.
However, I don't think Piccolo was weaker than Tenshinhan, you have the bald guy at 1800 and Piccolo at 1200.

It makes sense, also, to have KKx3 Goku's KHH weaker due to the strain of the technique. He must be weaker in order to not be able to wipe Vegeta's attack. Though, I would meet halfway, lower Goku and let Geet's attack have somewhat of a multiplier, after all, Geets says Goku's attacks looks just like his.

About Nappa's power up, it seems to be what Bardock pulled out of his ass against Gas. When courage, focus and other stuff align, saiyans do get stronger.

[DanielSSJ]

I quite like it. I particularly liked how you dealt with the 400 PL cap that Raditz put on the guys. I think it makes sense.
However, I don't think Piccolo was weaker than Tenshinhan, you have the bald guy at 1800 and Piccolo at 1200.

It makes sense, also, to have KKx3 Goku's KHH weaker due to the strain of the technique. He must be weaker in order to not be able to wipe Vegeta's attack. Though, I would meet halfway, lower Goku and let Geet's attack have somewhat of a multiplier, after all, Geets says Goku's attacks looks just like his.

About Nappa's power up, it seems to be what Bardock pulled out of his ass against Gas. When courage, focus and other stuff align, saiyans do get stronger.

Thanks for reading it, and thanks for the feedback!

I understand your point about Vegeta's Gyarikku-Ho, but the story strongly implies at every turn that Raditz, Nappa, and Vegeta cannot alter their battle power at will. Raditz in particular was completely dumbfounded when he sees Goku's and Piccolo's numbers jump up when they charge up their special attacks. If Vegeta, someone Raditz had been fighting alongside with since they were children, could do it, he wouldn't have been so surprised.

The way I see it, when the Saiyans fire off huge ki attacks like Veggie's Gyarikku Ho or Nappa's "ultimate technique", they're essentially just gathering a ton of ki together and chucking it at you. They don't concentrate it into a single point like the Earthlings do, which is what actually causes your battle power to increase. It's basically an issue of volume vs density.

In regards to Piccolo, the 1220 number comes straight from the manga (along with Gohan at 981 and Kuririn at 1083), but it's only his resting BP. I have his full power at 2,360.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

After a million fucking years, I finally made some decent headway on a new Battle Power list. It's not finished yet — it only goes up to the end of the Saiyan arc — but I'm planning on covering the entire manga this way. So let me know what you guys think!

What's the point of meddling with the power levels Raditz gave if you're still keeping the humans so weak compared to Piccolo Daimao? There's a lot of room to use here to make everything fit. You could at least raise Yamcha a bit: He's not weaker than Cyborg Tao, specially when he and Kuririn were still getting lumped together at that point.

I like how you dance around most of Weekly Jump's numbers and make them blast levels. That's what I do with most of them as well. But I doubt the Kikoho and the Kakusandan were stronger than the Makkankosappo: It was the only thing that actually hurt Nappa. The Kikoho might be stronger than the Masenko since it scared him (though only the Masenko got a compliment), but Kuririn's blast was as irrelevant as Chaozu's self destruction (Which I'd like to see you list btw).

You left the explanations for Goku and Jackie in the 21st Budokai blank, btw.

About Nappa's power up, it seems to be what Bardock pulled out of his ass against Gas. When courage, focus and other stuff align, saiyans do get stronger.

That's what I'd like to think too, they even get a similar small, white aura that we don't see very often around characters. Vegeta seemed too sure of Nappa though, and these mid fight power ups seem to be a very rare thing with Bardock being one of those rare bizarre one-offs.

[DanielSSJ]

What's the point of meddling with the power levels Raditz gave if you're still keeping the humans so weak compared to Piccolo Daimao? There's a lot of room to use here to make everything fit. You could at least raise Yamcha a bit: He's not weaker than Cyborg Tao, specially when he and Kuririn were still getting lumped together at that point.

Yeah, that's probably the spot that I have the most doubt about. I could (and probably should) bump the earthlings up a bit, particularly Tenshinhan, who honestly should at least be a lot closer to Piccolo Daimao, if not beyond him. That said, the more I bring the Earthlings up, the smaller their gains are during the 5 year time skip, so I can't really bump them up too much.

I like how you dance around most of Weekly Jump's numbers and make them blast levels. That's what I do with most of them as well. But I doubt the Kikoho and the Kakusandan were stronger than the Makkankosappo: It was the only thing that actually hurt Nappa. The Kikoho might be stronger than the Masenko since it scared him (though only the Masenko got a compliment), but Kuririn's blast was as irrelevant as Chaozu's self destruction (Which I'd like to see you list btw).

Doing a power level for the Kakusandan is kind of a headache, because I can never really figure out exactly how splitting into six smaller blasts affects its power. If it's just division, then the original beam would be greater than 7,200 (1200 x 6), which seems extremely wrong. So I kinda just did a value for the original beam and left it vague how strong each of the smaller blasts is.

Regarding Piccolo's two-handed Makankosappo, its worth noting that he fired it at Nappa without much charge-up. That could account for why it's not as big a boost as the Kakusandan or Kikoho (or his own Makankosappo from a year ago, for that matter).

You left the explanations for Goku and Jackie in the 21st Budokai blank, btw.

I'm actually in the middle of making a bunch of tweaks the list right now, so you might've just caught me while I was rewriting that whole paragraph. It should be there now.

[DanielSSJ]

Taking into account the feedback I recieved, I made a few revisions to my battle power list. Most of the changes are pretty minor, but the big one is that I raised the 23rd Budokai Earthlings up quite a bit. Yamcha and Tenshinhan are both now substantially stronger than Cyborg Tao, and I even bit the bullet and made Tenshinhan a bit more powerful than Piccolo Daimao and Kid Goku. Their BoZ selves also saw a small boost to account for this change.

[Godo]

Taking into account the feedback I recieved, I made a few revisions to my battle power list. Most of the changes are pretty minor, but the big one is that I raised the 23rd Budokai Earthlings up quite a bit. Yamcha and Tenshinhan are both now substantially stronger than Cyborg Tao, and I even bit the bullet and made Tenshinhan a bit more powerful than Piccolo Daimao and Kid Goku. Their BoZ selves also saw a small boost to account for this change.

I like your list a lot. Not just the powerlevels, but also the layout. It gives me a nostalgic feeling for some reason!

[DanielSSJ]

I like your list a lot. Not just the powerlevels, but also the layout. It gives me a nostalgic feeling for some reason!

Thanks for the kind words! To be honest, working on the aesthetic elements (combing through the manga for images, fooling around with the text font and the layout, etc) has actually been the most fun part of making the list. I will admit that I partially inspired by these old power level charts, so that might be where your nostalgic feeling came from.

[Godo]

I like your list a lot. Not just the powerlevels, but also the layout. It gives me a nostalgic feeling for some reason!

Thanks for the kind words! To be honest, working on the aesthetic elements (combing through the manga for images, fooling around with the text font and the layout, etc) has actually been the most fun part of making the list. I will admit that I partially inspired by these old power level charts, so that might be where your nostalgic feeling came from.

Inspiration is never a bad thing. Your designs are better by the way!

[DanielSSJ]

Inspiration is never a bad thing. Your designs are better by the way!

Thanks!

[DanielSSJ]

Alright, I was finally able to knock out the battle powers for the Freeza arc, and my list has been updated accordingly. Unfortunately, I kinda suspect that it'll take me a lot longer complete the Cell and Boo arcs, considering there won't be any official power levels to go off of, but we'll see. As always, I welcome all feedback, so let me know what you guys think!

[GatoF]

Alright, I was finally able to knock out the battle powers for the Freeza arc, and my list has been updated accordingly. Unfortunately, I kinda suspect that it'll take me a lot longer complete the Cell and Boo arcs, considering there won't be any official power levels to go off of, but we'll see. As always, I welcome all feedback, so let me know what you guys think!

I really liked the design you did, I'm still reading the Daimao's arc but everything seems ok so far, maybe Yajirobe's power level should be a bit higher. Congrats man.

[GatoF]

Also you forgot Master Karin...I think he should be stronger than Goku when he climbed the tower and weaker than Tao Pai Pai.

[ZombieVito]

Also you forgot Master Karin...I think he should be stronger than Goku when he climbed the tower and weaker than Tao Pai Pai.

Karin is at 190. Stronger than even 22nd TB Goku lol.