Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[AtlasFlame18]

Do we know if regular Super Saiyan has a different multiplier from Super Saiyan Full Power/Grade 4?

They have the same multiplier but regular SS bleeds Ki way faster than Grade 4 SS and in a high level fight that ki drain makes a huge difference.

[QuakingStar]

Except like I said, Vegeta was testing him. He then instructed him to turn SS. He then decided to train him to become SS. Caulifla is supposed to be stronger than Cabba, while Goku and Vegeta are tied in base form. Do you think Caulifla is stronger than Goku and Vegeta? No, she isn't.

[Koitsukai]

In-universe, FPSS vs first-time SS explains the gap between two SS fighters with equal base forms. Like Goku9001 said, Geets also braced himself to tank it, Goku as well, used one finger to deflect Trunk's sword and they were pretty much equals as SS.

Out-of-universe, Toriyama already said SS2 and 3 are powered up versions of the SS form, and that the end goal is to muster all that power as a regular SS, tearing down the walls between each form and freely accessing all the power as SS.
Vegeta is already going beyond SS2 without actually turning SS3, so I'm confident he wouldn't have problems going beyond FPSS without actually turning SS2.

And following up on SSJgogeto's post, against Broly, Goku and Vegeta perform surprisingly well in just SS against a foe that is 10x away from SSG. Goku actually lasted long enough vs Ikari Broly as a SS. If it had been SS3 Goku, probably nobody would've complained, skills can also take you so far. Same for SS Gogeta, he takes a hit from FPSS Broly and "lives". If that was SS3 Gogeta, it would've made more sense going straight to blue after that.
Of course, that's movie only -in the Moro arc, Goku uses SS3-, it's a testament of Toriyama's intentions for the SS forms.
So, my headcanon is that for the movies, Toriyama is using the regular SS to represent the full power of all the blond forms.

[Goku9001]

Except like I said, Vegeta was testing him. He then instructed him to turn SS. He then decided to train him to become SS. Caulifla is supposed to be stronger than Cabba, while Goku and Vegeta are tied in base form. Do you think Caulifla is stronger than Goku and Vegeta? No, she isn't.

And as I've said, the two aren't mutually exclusive. Base Cabba can very well be on par with Base Vegeta just as Base Goku was on par with 3rd Form Frost at best. The latter was testing his opponent just as you are proposing Vegeta was with Cabba. Your argument is a weak one.

[Hugo Boss]

I will be blunt. Despite being well known in DB fandom there is a grade 1 and 4 of regular SS, I don’t think Dragon Ball Super ever acknowledges this fact. For all intents and purposes, the Super Saiyan version that Vegeta and Kyabe use is the same. So, in terms of battle power and energy consumption, they should be evenly matched as well. In combat skill I agree Vegeta is the superior one, as their fight demonstrated.

[ZombieVito]

Except like I said, Vegeta was testing him. He then instructed him to turn SS. He then decided to train him to become SS. Caulifla is supposed to be stronger than Cabba, while Goku and Vegeta are tied in base form. Do you think Caulifla is stronger than Goku and Vegeta? No, she isn't.

Vegeta thinks to himself that he and Caba are equal in base. That makes the comparison fact (Why would he lie to himself in his head?).

Also the Vegeta who fought Cabba and the one from the ToP are different power wise. Vegeta and Goku are always getting stronger.

[BWri]

Do we know if regular Super Saiyan has a different multiplier from Super Saiyan Full Power/Grade 4?

They have the same multiplier but regular SS bleeds Ki way faster than Grade 4 SS and in a high level fight that ki drain makes a huge difference.

IDK, this has always been a point of contention with me. I think there has to be a gap in power between grades 1 and 4 because of how much stronger it made Goku and Gohan in 1 trip over Vegeta and Trunks in 2. And if a grade 1 SSJ had a 50x power boost on Namek then that would not change by the time grade 4 is introduced. The ki drain is included in the grade 1 50x power boost or we have to say that grade 1 wasn't a 50x boost until grade 4 is introduced but guide books and such tell us that it's always been a 50x boost since it was introduced. Once the energy leak is nullified and the fighter has access to more power due to higher ki reserves then the power boost would be far greater than 50x.

That's how I see it anyway because the power gap is crazy.

[QuakingStar]

Except like I said, Vegeta was testing him. He then instructed him to turn SS. He then decided to train him to become SS. Caulifla is supposed to be stronger than Cabba, while Goku and Vegeta are tied in base form. Do you think Caulifla is stronger than Goku and Vegeta? No, she isn't.

Vegeta thinks to himself that he and Caba are equal in base. That makes the comparison fact (Why would he lie to himself in his head?).

Also the Vegeta who fought Cabba and the one from the ToP are different power wise. Vegeta and Goku are always getting stronger.

Then you are assuming Cabba and Caulifla did not train and did not get stronger leading up to the tournament. Vegeta could have easily been referring to the level of power he was currently using, as him and Goku are not always at full power they always fight lower and then bring them selves up as the fight calls for it. Vegeta never once felt he could lose there, he was confident the whole way through and Cabba even notices Vegeta was testing and then training him. So did Goku, so did Piccolo. Cabba was never on Vegeta's level.

[ZombieVito]

Then you are assuming Cabba and Caulifla did not train and did not get stronger leading up to the tournament. Vegeta could have easily been referring to the level of power he was currently using, as him and Goku are not always at full power they always fight lower and then bring them selves up as the fight calls for it. Vegeta never once felt he could lose there, he was confident the whole way through and Cabba even notices Vegeta was testing and then training him. So did Goku, so did Piccolo. Cabba was never on Vegeta's level.

He would have said that if that was the case.

Caulifla was never shown to train in anything she has appeared in. Cabba most definitely could have trained but Vegeta has better ways to do it (RoSaT + a literal angel) so he will always come ahead after their encounter in the U6 arc.

This just seems like you don't want Cabba to be that strong just because to be honest. We have a character literally thinking to himself that he and Cabba were equals in base. That should be enough to prove it.

[Goku9001]

Except like I said, Vegeta was testing him. He then instructed him to turn SS. He then decided to train him to become SS. Caulifla is supposed to be stronger than Cabba, while Goku and Vegeta are tied in base form. Do you think Caulifla is stronger than Goku and Vegeta? No, she isn't.

Vegeta thinks to himself that he and Caba are equal in base. That makes the comparison fact (Why would he lie to himself in his head?).

Also the Vegeta who fought Cabba and the one from the ToP are different power wise. Vegeta and Goku are always getting stronger.

Then you are assuming Cabba and Caulifla did not train and did not get stronger leading up to the tournament. Vegeta could have easily been referring to the level of power he was currently using, as him and Goku are not always at full power they always fight lower and then bring them selves up as the fight calls for it. Vegeta never once felt he could lose there, he was confident the whole way through and Cabba even notices Vegeta was testing and then training him. So did Goku, so did Piccolo. Cabba was never on Vegeta's level.

That's not embedded in the narrative. Vegeta is making it clear that they were equal based on their current fight. Vegeta dials it up by showing Cabba that there's an even greater level to obtain through Super Saiyan. At no point is it ever suggested that there was another level to his Base form. After all, Cabba was confident in battling Base Vegeta having already witnessed Base Goku and Base Vegeta in battle against Botamo, Frost, and Magetta. His confidence only wavers once Vegeta goes Super Saiyan.

You have yet to prove that the U6 Saiyans were below the Buu Arc Saiyans. Nothing points to that at all.

[QuakingStar]

Nah doesn't matter what your opinions on it are. Vegeta was never once using his full power against Cabba. He never needed to.

[Thani]

Nah doesn't matter what your opinions on it are. Vegeta was never once using his full power against Cabba. He never needed to.

I mean, Vegeta did go SSB against Cabba. So he did use his full power against him at one point.

[Grimlock]

They have the same multiplier but regular SS bleeds Ki way faster than Grade 4 SS and in a high level fight that ki drain makes a huge difference.

Thought as much. It's weird to say one is stronger than the other when they have the same multiplier, in fact, it's even weirder to treat them as separated forms when they are one and the same (which is why they have the same multiplier in the first place!). If Vegeta is stronger than Cabba, it's because there is a gap between these individuals, not in the transformation itself.

And as I thought to say earlier but Hugo Boss pointed out, I don't think the writers even know or remember Super Saiyan Full Power. This was never brought up again, either in the series or in promotional material. Judging by the design of Cabba's, Caulifla's and Broly's Super Saiyan, I dare say they all already have Super Saiyan Full Power. They really don't look like Goku's, Vegeta's, Trunks' and Gohan's Super Saiyan hairstyles when they transformed for the first time, to me anyway.

[Goku9001]

Nah doesn't matter what your opinions on it are. Vegeta was never once using his full power against Cabba. He never needed to.

That would also be your opinion.

[ZombieVito]

Nah doesn't matter what your opinions on it are. Vegeta was never once using his full power against Cabba. He never needed to.

How is it an opinion when we have a character literally thinking to himself that they are equals?

[QuakingStar]

Vegeta had already fought Auta Magetta, he was definitely not at 100%. Cabba was also in pure rage when he went SS so he had the Saiyan rage boost, yet despite that Vegeta smiled and casually tanked SS Cabba's full force punch straight to his forehead. No matter how you try to explain that Vegeta was clearly holding back on Cabba and testing him. Cabba was never on his level. Your argument here could be used for Beerus too but as we all saw Goku nor Vegeta were never on Beerus level, which as we find out after Beerus was lying despite saying those things and acting like they were a threat to him. Only at the moment that punch is going to land on Vegetas forehead is it revealed Vegeta was never serious. Also, he only used Blue to show Cabba what he thought was the ultimate form at the time and he tells Cabba to train to one day achieve it.

[Goku9001]

Vegeta had already fought Auta Magetta, he was definitely not at 100%. Cabba was also in pure rage when he went SS so he had the Saiyan rage boost, yet despite that Vegeta smiled and casually tanked SS Cabba's full force punch straight to his forehead. No matter how you try to explain that Vegeta was clearly holding back on Cabba and testing him. Cabba was never on his level. Your argument here could be used for Beerus too but as we all saw Goku nor Vegeta were never on Beerus level, which as we find out after Beerus was lying despite saying those things and acting like they were a threat to him. Only at the moment that punch is going to land on Vegetas forehead is it revealed Vegeta was never serious. Also, he only used Blue to show Cabba what he thought was the ultimate form at the time and he tells Cabba to train to one day achieve it.

You keep pushing this idea without really proving that was the case. Nonetheless, Vegeta testing Cabba really has no bearing on whether or not Cabba was Base Vegeta's equal. Goku was also testing Frost and Frost ended up being too much for Base Goku without his final form. Goku was also testing Toppo with Super Saiyan and almost paid for it.

The reason why we would believe that Beerus was holding back has nothing to do with Beerus testing Goku and Vegeta.

[ZombieVito]

There's absolutely no indication that Cabba had a rage boost. Like at all.

[Koitsukai]

If the writers had Vegeta say during a beam clash that they were even and that without transforming it would be a looong fight, then that's what they meant. Headcanon can be applied anytime, as long as it doesn't contradict statements like Vegeta's.

[QuakingStar]

There's absolutely no indication that Cabba had a rage boost. Like at all.

Except there is, literally watch the fight again. He's enraged and hitting Vegeta with literally everything he has. Vegeta was most definitely not using his full power whether in base or in SS.