Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

[Aim]

Hiii,

so we know that for ages the marketing and overall pitching of Dragon Ball Super has been suspiciously bad, to the point it doesn’t make sense considering how much profit the franchise brings in. I have a feeling that there might be something happening behind the scenes where possibly Toriyama isn’t happy with Toei or doesn’t want to continue the story any longer, maybe he feels as if Toei are asking too much of him(?).

I’ve never really witnessed such a beloved franchise get this kind of treatment honestly, it is all round subpar and strange to say the least. Even the video games are looking worse as assets are reused, I highly doubt this is a valid reason to cut costs considering these companies have been making it big. This leads me to wonder if possibly greed may be coming in to play as well.

Would love to hear everyone’s thoughts.

[ClutchBangstrip]

I honestly think it comes down to either culture or greed. But I definitely feel as though the brand makes far too much money for what's currently going on. They're definitely not using Dragon Ball like a western corporation would, that's for sure.

This could all change very soon, though. 'Given the rumors...

[JulieYBM]

New animated projects require a ton of planning, especially if they want to asses how to reach a foreign market. These things take time, especially in an industry already overworked and a studio that has a ton of productions going at once.

[Jord]

The difference between the new Dragon Ball and the new One Piece movie is like night and day.

[Majin Man 101]

It truly is sickening what is going on. I know there are a ton of fans here that are happy with a manga release, and the occasional movie and video game.

But let's face the facts, the anime is what propelled this franchise to its lasting success. I am in no way trying to take away from the importance of other mediums such as manga/video games that has been the genesis/contributor to its original and continuing success but there is no denying that the anime is the bread and butter of this franchise. To deny so would be to deny reality.

Also, it's so dissapointing that they have decided to put a halt on the Super storyline in the anime because our actors are not getting any younger, and it would be such a buzzkill to have our beloved actors pass/retire before the Super series even gets the chance to come to it's conclusion.
It's obvious that Toei/ whoever is running this still has no clue what they have on their hands. There is obviously some major disagreements about what to do with the series going forward. I doubt it has nothing to do with the quality of the series. With Broly in 2018 the series visuals were obviously back on track, and Shintani was going to lead us into a new era. Sadly that hasn't happened yet. So I would assume there is a lot of confusion of what to do with the story.

[Jord]

I agree on the VA not getting younger but let's be real, Super's anime was a waste of their talents with sub-par story lines and shoddy animation. Regardless of that, I think the success of the Broly and the showed that the franchise doesn't need an expensive weekly anime to garner a huge profit. There wasn't a huge decrease in profit after they cancelled Super. (I believe profit actually increased in the following year) I can see them not wanting to invest in an anime for the time being.

Regardless of that, the marketing and communication department has been lackluster. Even when viewed in isolation, the marketing for the recent Super Hero movie was lackluster. The most high-profile products from the past four years have been the video games, and it's not like TOEI did much to promote them. That was all on Namco-Bandai's part.

[Xeogran]

I still believe in the 2023/early 2024 anime. Toei recently finished their work on the Dragon Quest remake, and I don't think any new anime from them replaced that time slot.

That's quite a lot of people who are now free to work on a possible Super seequel.

[Raki]

The difference between the new Dragon Ball and the new One Piece movie is like night and day.

One Piece is a current juggernaut with no signs of slowing down. It makes sense that it is getting all the attention right now. Dragonball is a legacy franchise at this point.

[WittyUsername]

I’ve been under the assumption since 2020 that there are no plans to bring the TV series back, and that moving forward, Super would exist solely in manga form and the occasional movie release. Mind you, I’m not sure why Toei wouldn’t want to bring back the anime, since it must be a big cash cow for them, but maybe I’m just looking at it from a Western perspective?

I’m not fully familiar with the business politics of Japanese entertainment, but maybe Toei is privy to something we’re not? In any case, One Piece is still going on, and that has been their most consistent cash flow for the past 23 years.

[Jord]

I’ve been under the assumption since 2020 that there are no plans to bring the TV series back, and that moving forward, Super would exist solely in manga form and the occasional movie release. Mind you, I’m not sure why Toei wouldn’t want to bring back the anime, since it must be a big cash cow for them, but maybe I’m just looking at it from a Western perspective?

I’m not fully familiar with the business politics of Japanese entertainment, but maybe Toei is privy to something we’re not? In any case, One Piece is still going on, and that has been their most consistent cash flow for the past 23 years.

Even without the anime the DB brand makes huge amounts of money. Why invest into an expensive anime production for just an incremental increase in profits? The brand is thriving with just Heroes, the video games and the occasional movie. If the Super anime was needed to make more profit they wouldn't have cancelled it or simply revive it.

Plus, not having a 2nd DB anime frees up staff for projects that "need" an anime more.

[GokuHater]

I don't think there is a struggle of any kind.
I just think - pesimistic as it sounds that DBS was a medium to make money first and foremost
Really, big corporate heads do not give a shit what is full of passion, what is made for fans and what has the best quality.
Big corporate heads think what will bring money and nostalgia in the company - and it is actually their jobs to do so.

The difference with the original manga was that it WAS indeed made with passion by one man (but he eventually also must have started writing for money).

Not all Toei staff of course does not give a shit and it shows... There ARE genuinely deep and artistic choices in the series but overall I find it as a product of a corporation.
And I don't say it cause I hate Super, I just think that's the way it works

[Majin Buu]

I’ve been under the assumption since 2020 that there are no plans to bring the TV series back, and that moving forward, Super would exist solely in manga form and the occasional movie release.

I think it's either this, or any plans to do so were derailed by the pandemic.

[MasenkoHA]

I’ve been under the assumption since 2020 that there are no plans to bring the TV series back, and that moving forward, Super would exist solely in manga form and the occasional movie release.

I think it's either this, or any plans to do so were derailed by the pandemic.

Idk the pandemic didn't stop that Digimon Adventure 2020 remake from happening, which I think also took Super's old timeslot on FujiTv? I vaguely recall people speculating after Digimon 2020 ended Super would come back and that didn't happen.

I honestly think for whatever reason Toei, Bandai, and Shueisha just decided they didn't need do Dragon Ball Super season 2 or whatever and that the Dragon Ball Heroes game, the Super manga, and the occasional movie release is enough to keep the franchise afloat for now and Super's timeslot can just go to other projects

[Skar]

I think the explanation that Shuiesha wanted Toei to wait for more content to adapt made the most sense whether it's the manga or outlines from Toriyama. From what we've seen, there doesn't seem to be much demand for Dragon Ball not involving Toriyama. Since BoG, we've only gotten Heroes which is a promotional anime only released in Japan. A few years break between seasons isn't that uncommon nowadays.

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

I'm just gonna rant for a bit. As someone that doesn't watch the Heroes web anime, doesn't play Dokkan, hasn't touched FighterZ, Kakarot and Xenoverse 2 in years and didn't buy the cheap-looking Breakers... there is nothing for me to look forward to besides the monthly manga chapters and occasionally jumping on Legends when a cool new character releases. That's it.

I don't know what their strategy is for this franchise. It's been almost 5 years since the Super anime wrapped up and there are only 3 things that I could classify as big releases... the Broly film, the Kakarot game and Super Hero. Now, I know I kinda sound spoilt since between GT and BoG the franchise was pretty much done besides the yearly video game releases and stuff like Yo! Son Goku etc. But it's just so bizzare for them to just stop making the Super anime and have the manga continue for this long. Is this how Bleach fans felt? It fucking sucks.

I know a lot of people make the argument that they don't need an anime to make profit for the series, since the games and merch still carry it pretty strong, but my counter argument would be that they could make WAY MORE money if the anime was still around. We could argue about the quality of the Super anime, but there is no denying that it had a massive impact on fans. I had so many friends that were in tune with the franchise and keeping up with the anime on a weekly basic, speculating what could happen next during the ToP. Those same friends don't give two shits about Dragon Ball now. They didn't even know that a movie came out last year. It's gotten that bad. Of course us hardcore fans are gonna stick around, but it ain't all about that.

And then there's the way Super Hero was promoted. Like someone else said in this thread, the difference between Super Hero and Film Red was fucking night and day (in regards to promotion. In terms of quality?... Film Red kinda sucked). The soundtrack for Film Red alone elevated the promotion for that film to a level that Super Hero wished it could achieve in its home country. Super Hero didn't even have a fucking theme song. I'm like 99% sure it's the only Dragon Ball film to not have a theme song. It is just so confusing that the promotion for the film was so lacklustre in Japan. Sure, One Piece is bigger and DB is a legacy franchise, but that doesn't change the fact that there was a clear marketing strategy for Film Red and a half-assed one for Super Hero. I never thought I'd say this... but thank fuck for Fortnite. That was the only smart promotion they did for the film. It sucks because the film is actually really good and it deserved so much better.

Also, like, think about all this for their actual target audience... kids. 4 years is a fucking long time for a kid. That kid that watched Super weekly in Japan ain't gonna care about that new Super Hero movie that just came out. Only us weird, hardcore, grown-ass fans are watching it. The box office numbers for that film in Japan are very telling. What's even more frustrating was the stupid 2 month gap between the Japanese and international release. Broly only had a 1 month gap. What's the deal?

I've reached to the point where I'm done with any and all rumours. It's been the same thing for the past 5 years. You could have all the evidence in the world and I still won't believe anything until I actually see it officially announced online. I hate scrolling through YouTube and seeing "Dragon Ball Super anime returning in 2019/20/21/22/23!?!?!?" for the millionth time. I hate the Twitter threads I come across where people are carrot-dangling "leaks" and acting like they have legit sources and only drip-feed vague information that literally means nothing. Web anime announcement in December? Yeah okay. Sure. This is my fault anyway for even giving these leaks and rumours any attention. It's taken me almost 5 years to stop caring. Hell, I can't even trust official news, since Iyokou will say something like "...There may be something other than the movie coming out this year!" only for us to get NOTHING? Dude, why would you even say that?? It's so annoying!

In regards to the OPs question, I don't think there's any behind-the-scenes issues going on with Toriyama and the production team. He seemed pretty ecstatic with the way Super Hero turned out, and he's still working with Toyotarou with the current manga arc judging by that recent interview. I just think this is all the result of shit planning. Haphazarad and thrown together like the beginning of Super. It's obvious by how Super Hero was promoted and released. I'm not downplaying the actual quality of what we've gotten these past 5 years, because both Broly and Super Hero were great and I've enjoyed the manga (for the most part). But, man... I don't think they know what they're doing. This franchise could be doing so much more. It deserves it. It's Dragon Ball.

That's it. End of rant.

[Xeogran]

Hell, I can't even trust official news, since Iyokou will say something like "...There may be something other than the movie coming out this year!" only for us to get NOTHING? Dude, why would you even say that??

I'll be the devil's advocate here and say that the hacking incident at Toei delayed everything they planned by 2-3 months. If we were supposed to get any cool announcement in December, it's possible that might have been delayed to February/March too.

[Vegard Aune]

I’ve been under the assumption since 2020 that there are no plans to bring the TV series back, and that moving forward, Super would exist solely in manga form and the occasional movie release.

I think it's either this, or any plans to do so were derailed by the pandemic.

Idk the pandemic didn't stop that Digimon Adventure 2020 remake from happening, which I think also took Super's old timeslot on FujiTv? I vaguely recall people speculating after Digimon 2020 ended Super would come back and that didn't happen.

I see people speculating about the pandemic derailing things quite a lot, when really... Toei seems to have gotten back on their feet almost immediately. They lost roughly two months' worth of timeslots, which did affect any series with a preset end date (Healin' Good Precure had to straight-up cut a few episodes because of it), but Digimon and One Piece just kept trucking along like nothing had happened. Well... Digimon after the break looked way worse than Digimon before the break, but that wasn't due to the pandemic, that was just due to Toei allocating next to no staff to that show. It's not as if episode 4 was put together in a massive rush the same week that they realized they had their timeslot back and that was why it looked so bad. It was always going to look bad. People were calling it way ahead of time that "Well, this episode is by Naoi. It is going to look like a slideshow."

[YMK_8000]

I think the explanation that Shuiesha wanted Toei to wait for more content to adapt made the most sense whether it's the manga or outlines from Toriyama. From what we've seen, there doesn't seem to be much demand for Dragon Ball not involving Toriyama. Since BoG, we've only gotten Heroes which is a promotional anime only released in Japan. A few years break between seasons isn't that uncommon nowadays.

BS there are fan works more popular that Super these days. GT which had no involvement from him Is beloved even way more than Super ever was.

You definitely can do Dragonball without Toriyama in fact the series MUCH would be better for it. No more of the “ oh well when an eagle lands at the top of korin tower at 12 in the afternoon everyone power level becomes infinite ” type explanations and crap. Just have writers who actually know the characters, throw in some meta jokes, a cool looking villain with powers, good animation and you will profit.

Dragonball isn’t rocket science yet the ones in charge treat it as such. I hope they either take the franchise away or sell it to Disney or an American studio that will deliver on hype.

[JulieYBM]

I think the explanation that Shuiesha wanted Toei to wait for more content to adapt made the most sense whether it's the manga or outlines from Toriyama. From what we've seen, there doesn't seem to be much demand for Dragon Ball not involving Toriyama. Since BoG, we've only gotten Heroes which is a promotional anime only released in Japan. A few years break between seasons isn't that uncommon nowadays.

BS there are fan works more popular that Super these days. GT which had no involvement from him Is beloved even way more than Super ever was.

You definitely can do Dragonball without Toriyama in fact the series MUCH would be better for it. No more of the “ oh well when an eagle lands at the top of korin tower at 12 in the afternoon everyone power level becomes infinite ” type explanations and crap. Just have writers who actually know the characters, throw in some meta jokes, a cool looking villain with powers, good animation and you will profit.

Dragonball isn’t rocket science yet the ones in charge treat it as such. I hope they either take the franchise away or sell it to Disney or an American studio that will deliver on hype.

Why are you arguing that Dragon Ball should be sold to an American studio right after acknowledging that there are non-Toriyama led projects and fan projects that are popular? If anything you should be arguing that Dragon Ball should be public domain so that anyone can create and sell Dragon Ball projects.

[Aim]

It truly is sickening what is going on. I know there are a ton of fans here that are happy with a manga release, and the occasional movie and video game.

But let's face the facts, the anime is what propelled this franchise to its lasting success. I am in no way trying to take away from the importance of other mediums such as manga/video games that has been the genesis/contributor to its original and continuing success but there is no denying that the anime is the bread and butter of this franchise. To deny so would be to deny reality.

Also, it's so dissapointing that they have decided to put a halt on the Super storyline in the anime because our actors are not getting any younger, and it would be such a buzzkill to have our beloved actors pass/retire before the Super series even gets the chance to come to it's conclusion.
It's obvious that Toei/ whoever is running this still has no clue what they have on their hands. There is obviously some major disagreements about what to do with the series going forward. I doubt it has nothing to do with the quality of the series. With Broly in 2018 the series visuals were obviously back on track, and Shintani was going to lead us into a new era. Sadly that hasn't happened yet. So I would assume there is a lot of confusion of what to do with the story.

I think a huge issue is also just the profit hungry high ups who don't want to take too long to diminish profit. It would be far better if manga was drawn over a year or two time period then released so that the same amount of pressure isn't on the artist or writer, that way, they are always ahead of schedule and any kind of anime can catch up.