How strong was Tien post King Kai?

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Seriously. Gohan, with a power of 1307 didn't even kill Raditz.

[Onikage725]

I think the Daizenshuu gives a 1800 for Ten there. Not that I'm a huge fan of the Daiz' list, but I don't see anything particularly wrong with the figure. It allows for the difference between Ten and Yamcha's fights. Both won easily, taking no damage, but Yamcha had to try a bit first to get past the Saibaiman's defenses. Ten pretty much just embarrassed the little shit.

@Rocketman, I'm glad someone else agrees. The whole Kaio-ken thing against Freeza is a bit unspecific. They spring it as a surprise, but we need to go back and examine every black and white combat aura? And if you're watching the anime they basically just say that his kaio-ken aura was on the DL (when they reshow scenes but with the aura where it hadn't previously been noticed by anyone other than Kaio).

So- option A: Goku learns Kaio-ken to a point that the aura isn't easy to sense like it used to be, and only the god who CREATED the attack can pick it out right away.

or

Option B: Goku goes from 90,000 to 3 million for basically no reason whatsoever. It makes no sense- the closer to death one comes, the greater they are upon recovery. Yet Vegeta was strong enough to tangle with Freeza in his first form, takes a ridiculously lethal blow, and comes back incapable of even seeing keeping up with Freeza's fourth form (while he wasn't even trying). Yet Goku, who's weaker than Ginyu without Kaio-ken, gets roughed up and has some ribs broken, and comes back capable fighting off that same Freeza Vegeta couldn't even see half the time, and doing so supposedly without Kaio-ken at all according to proponents of this theory.

Both are fairly ridiculous notions, but one seems slightly plausible and the other seems like a blatant "fuck it, I'm doing whatever!" Not that Toriyama never did that, but I don't think he did back that far.

[Herms]

I think the Daizenshuu gives a 1800 for Ten there. Not that I'm a huge fan of the Daiz' list, but I don't see anything particularly wrong with the figure. It allows for the difference between Ten and Yamcha's fights. Both won easily, taking no damage, but Yamcha had to try a bit first to get past the Saibaiman's defenses. Ten pretty much just embarrassed the little shit.

Yeah, it puts Tenshinhan at 1830, as opposed to Yamcha at 1480.

[Kaboom]

Option B: Goku goes from 90,000 to 3 million for basically no reason whatsoever.

There was a reason. It was the Super Saiyan power being drawn out. Goku and Vegeta were both inching ever closer to it with each increasingly large zenkai they got. But Goku's were bigger and he reached it sooner because he was the "legendary Super Saiyan." Bit of a hindsight-drawn explanation, but it's still a pretty good one.

[Xyex]

Based on what?

Comparing all similar instances during the series. First example is Vegeta easily hitting Goku even with the Kaioken going. 16k to 18k is a 1.125 difference. Then, Vegeta at 24,000 wiped out Kui, at 18,000, pretty easily and that's a difference of 1.3. Later we've got Vegeta doing the same thing to Dodoria who was likely around 20,000, which is a 1.1 difference.

Zarbon, who couldn't have been more than 22,000 himself, needed to transform to defeat Vegeta and that was a difference of just 1.09. Though I will say intent and skill do factor in with this. In the above examples Vegeta was at least equally skilled and definitely intent on pulverizing his opponents as opposed to simply toying around with them (ala Raditz against Goku and Piccolo).

Seriously. Gohan, with a power of 1307 didn't even kill Raditz.

Gohan just did a head butt. Sure, that could have plowed right through Raditz if he'd been stronger, but physical attacks aren't shown doing the same levels of damage as ki attacks. And Raditz even indicates that his armor absorbed part of the impact.

@Rocketman, I'm glad someone else agrees. The whole Kaio-ken thing against Freeza is a bit unspecific. They spring it as a surprise, but we need to go back and examine every black and white combat aura? And if you're watching the anime they basically just say that his kaio-ken aura was on the DL (when they reshow scenes but with the aura where it hadn't previously been noticed by anyone other than Kaio).

This was my original take as well, when I first saw those episodes. It seemed to me at the time they were implying he had been using the Kaioken the entire time.

These days, I'm not so sure of either option A or B. A seems more plausible (90k to what would be 200k in my list) if you consider just straight forward damage factors and that Goku's Zenkais have all been pretty small so far. But when when you look at elements of the fight with Freeza it seems more likely he was fighting in base for a good portion of it and still doing well. And then also consider that Goku's body had been stolen for a time by someone who couldn't use it properly (no telling what damage that did).

And then there's the idea that the Zenkais are tied to Super Saiya-jin and that they grow larger and larger as a Saiya-jin approaches transforming. So basicly with Goku his jump wasn't from the damage he'd incurred but from his SSJ powers waking up and just needing that last trigger to push him over. Fan theory, sure, but it's a good one.

[Herms]

Based on what?

Comparing all similar instances during the series. First example is Vegeta easily hitting Goku even with the Kaioken going. 16k to 18k is a 1.125 difference. Then, Vegeta at 24,000 wiped out Kui, at 18,000, pretty easily and that's a difference of 1.3. Later we've got Vegeta doing the same thing to Dodoria who was likely around 20,000, which is a 1.1 difference.

Zarbon, who couldn't have been more than 22,000 himself, needed to transform to defeat Vegeta and that was a difference of just 1.09.

Except what you said was that a power of 1,330 "could oneshot a Saibamen with complete ease. Wouldn't even see it coming." 1,330 against 1,200 is a 1.108 difference. All of the examples you give have greater gaps than that (if Vegeta was at 24,000 and Dodoria at 20,000, then that's a difference of 1.2, not 1.1 like you said), yet none of the are settled so easily. Goku is able to dodge Vegeta's ki attacks with Kaio-ken x2, albeit with difficulty. Vegeta needed two attacks to kill Kui. He does take out Dodoria with one blast, but it's a blast from behind that Dodoria still has enough time to turn around and see, and this is after Vegeta tortured him by squeezing his arms together.

[Rocketman]

And then there's the idea that the Zenkais are tied to Super Saiya-jin and that they grow larger and larger as a Saiya-jin approaches transforming. So basicly with Goku his jump wasn't from the damage he'd incurred but from his SSJ powers waking up and just needing that last trigger to push him over. Fan theory, sure, but it's a good one.

I reject that mostly because it's such a completely insane power jump. I mean, Goku suddenly raises his power thirty-three times over. The only boosts that go anywhere near that kind of growth are the Fusions (incl. Namekian) or actual transformations.

[Onikage725]

And then there's the idea that the Zenkais are tied to Super Saiya-jin and that they grow larger and larger as a Saiya-jin approaches transforming. So basicly with Goku his jump wasn't from the damage he'd incurred but from his SSJ powers waking up and just needing that last trigger to push him over. Fan theory, sure, but it's a good one.

I reject that mostly because it's such a completely insane power jump. I mean, Goku suddenly raises his power thirty-three times over. The only boosts that go anywhere near that kind of growth are the Fusions (incl. Namekian) or actual transformations.

And they also don't give a precedent for pre-SSJ crazy zenkai boosts. Vegeta was near SSJ himself on Namek. Then he trains in 400G while abusing the hell out of zenkai. If his near-ascendancy was allowing increases in excess of 30x per recovery... then he really shouldn't have had a problem with #18. Or his drained ki should have put #19 into god mode, one or the other. Goku's increase on Namek, as explained by the Daizenshuu, really has no precedent. If it was Toriyama's intention, then he basically wasn't caring about "consistency."

[Drunken Master]

That part's not in the manga. One panel is shown of everybody training after the part where ChiChi finds out Goku's dead and Piccolo's got Gohan, then they aren't shown again for two chapters, when Kami says he has nothing more to teach them.

Really? Eww, my bad. I don't have that part of the manga. Man I thought that part was in the manga, and I thought I even had that manga volume...I'm losing it.

EDIT
Oh! I know what it was, on one scan it shows Tenshinhan all tired and sweating, and Krillin and Chaotzu are fighting I think, and Yamcha is fighting Popo I believe, which leads me to believe that Tenshinhan just got done trying to kick Popo's ass, which in turn was Popo showing everyone that they couldn't beat him. Am I right? Again, bad memory. I'm gonna order those parts in the manga right now actually.

[Kid Trunks]

Or his (Vegeta) drained ki should have put #19 into god mode

But all that android stuff makes no sense. For example, Piccolo is able to own Gero, despite the fact that Gero had Piccolo's (he should automatically be stronger now), Yamcha's and his own ki within him. Not to mention the ki blast he absorbed from Vegeta earlier.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

And then there's the idea that the Zenkais are tied to Super Saiya-jin and that they grow larger and larger as a Saiya-jin approaches transforming. So basicly with Goku his jump wasn't from the damage he'd incurred but from his SSJ powers waking up and just needing that last trigger to push him over. Fan theory, sure, but it's a good one.

I reject that mostly because it's such a completely insane power jump. I mean, Goku suddenly raises his power thirty-three times over. The only boosts that go anywhere near that kind of growth are the Fusions (incl. Namekian) or actual transformations.

It's just a manga, though. Not everything is going to make perfect sense in retrospect. Besides, there could be a number of logical reasons one could make up. For instance, maybe Goku just gets bigger gains than Vegeta? Maybe Goku's power up was bigger than Vegeta's because Goku's body was hit with a stronger attack? (It was weak little Kuririn that shot Vegeta with a ki blast to induce his forced power up, whereas Vegeta, who had a combat power near Freeza's 530,000 at that point, was the one to pummel Goku's body.)

Maybe Goku's just the main character?

Or his (Vegeta) drained ki should have put #19 into god mode

But all that android stuff makes no sense. For example, Piccolo is able to own Gero, despite the fact that Gero had Piccolo's (he should automatically be stronger now), Yamcha's and his own ki within him. Not to mention the ki blast he absorbed from Vegeta earlier.

Piccolo actually explains this, though. He says that the power #20 took from him was "nothing," because when they fight, they amplify their energy in bursts. He had only stolen Piccolo's resting power.

[SSj_Rambo]

Or his (Vegeta) drained ki should have put #19 into god mode

But all that android stuff makes no sense. For example, Piccolo is able to own Gero, despite the fact that Gero had Piccolo's (he should automatically be stronger now), Yamcha's and his own ki within him. Not to mention the ki blast he absorbed from Vegeta earlier.

Piccolo actually explains this, though. He says that the power #20 took from him was "nothing," because when they fight, they amplify their energy in bursts. He had only stolen Piccolo's resting power.

And the fact that Piccolo was unexpectedly fused with Nail put Piccolo extremely far above anything Dr. Gero expected him to be at, and obviously above anything he could handle too.

[Kid Trunks]

Or his (Vegeta) drained ki should have put #19 into god mode

But all that android stuff makes no sense. For example, Piccolo is able to own Gero, despite the fact that Gero had Piccolo's (he should automatically be stronger now), Yamcha's and his own ki within him. Not to mention the ki blast he absorbed from Vegeta earlier.

Piccolo actually explains this, though. He says that the power #20 took from him was "nothing," because when they fight, they amplify their energy in bursts. He had only stolen Piccolo's resting power.

Oh I see. Is that manga only?

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

No, I'm sure that line would have been in the anime (not that I ever watch it). Did you watch the dub?

[Kid Trunks]

Um...yeah I did

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Well, don't be surprised that lines were changed from the original, then.

[Onikage725]

It's just a manga, though. Not everything is going to make perfect sense in retrospect. Besides, there could be a number of logical reasons one could make up. For instance, maybe Goku just gets bigger gains than Vegeta? Maybe Goku's power up was bigger than Vegeta's because Goku's body was hit with a stronger attack? (It was weak little Kuririn that shot Vegeta with a ki blast to induce his forced power up, whereas Vegeta, who had a combat power near Freeza's 530,000 at that point, was the one to pummel Goku's body.)

Maybe Goku's just the main character?

That's... kind of my point. It's ridiculous either way, and a bit ambiguous. Toriyama did not calculate zenkai formulas, announce Goku's use of Kaio-ken prior to Kaio's revelation, state Goku's power level past 90,000 or Freeza's past 1 million, or basically anything that generally gets tossed about.

No one opinion on this is necessarily better than the other, but typically when someone disagrees with the Daizenshuu estimates we then get to sit through pages of mathematical formulas and panel by panel aura analysis. I'm not saying that's happened here, but that's how it usually goes. To use you as an example, though, you did just offer up the theory of hidden mathematical factors behind every punch. You really want to argue that Vegeta breaking some ribs hurt Goku more than Kuririn hurt Vegeta when he blew a large gaping hole through his chest? This isn't Pokemon. I really don't think Toriyama was secretly counting EV's during the battles.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Goku was about equal to Freeza after he healed. There is no way he's using Kaioken x10 for the entire battle, because it makes every quote from Vegeta & Krillin about Goku's power wrong. When Freeza fired those finger beams at Goku, he deflected them, and he kicked Freeza. If his power level was only 300,000 at the point, that wouldn't be possible.

Freeza also stated that Goku was holding back most of his power, and Goku agreed with him. Goku's full-power at that point was the Kaioken x10, and the 20x increase was just a desperation move that he didn't even consider until Freeza powered-up.

[Rocketman]

Goku was about equal to Freeza after he healed. There is no way he's using Kaioken x10 for the entire battle, because it makes every quote from Vegeta & Krillin about Goku's power wrong. When Freeza fired those finger beams at Goku, he deflected them, and he kicked Freeza. If his power level was only 300,000 at the point, that wouldn't be possible.

It wasn't. It was 3,000,000 'cause of the KKx10.

Freeza also stated that Goku was holding back most of his power, and Goku agreed with him. Goku's full-power at that point was the Kaioken x10, and the 20x increase was just a desperation move that he didn't even consider until Freeza powered-up.

Freeza can't sense power levels, and Goku's not dumb enough to say "Nope, I'm tapped out already! ".

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

It wasn't. It was 3,000,000 'cause of the KKx10.

So when Goku was yelling at Freeza to not interfere with his potential fight with Vegeta, he was already accessing Kaioken x10? Once Goku arrived, Krillin said "his chi was different", and I doubt he would say such with Goku being weaker then Freeza's first form. Vegeta also wouldn't say Goku is about to become a SSJ if he was weaker then himself. It also goes against the point of Kaioken, doesn't it?

Freeza can't sense power levels, and Goku's not dumb enough to say "Nope, I'm tapped out already! ".

He can't sense power, but he can feel the intensity of ones attacks. It's very similiar to Android #18; she couldn't sense power, but when Trunks beam went right by her, she narrowly dodged it, and said: "That speed, that power, are those twits really that good?" So if she can feel the intensity of an attack, I'm sure Freeza could feel it also.

Goku also agreed with him, and knew he hadn't been using the Kaioken just yet. Kaio stated the battle to be equal, and everyone else were learning about the battle through Kaio. If Goku was using Kaioken the entire time, he would've made note of it.

Once Kaio says that Goku's already using it, all we see is Goku in his aura gettin slapped around by Freeza. This shows that the Kaioken Goku likely used when Freeza offered to fight with no hands, was the basic one.