Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Toriyama threw established multipliers out of the window when he made Broly rival SSGSS with just the power of Great Ape, which had a 10x increase. At least one of them necessarily had its multiplier changed.

By the way, the idea of an established form multiplier at the current status of the franchise has lost its purpose, given the amount of discrepancies in post Boo arc story arcs. It had a purpose back in the 90s, but right now it’s meaningless.

But Broly grows stronger as he fights.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Toriyama threw established multipliers out of the window when he made Broly rival SSGSS with just the power of Great Ape, which had a 10x increase. At least one of them necessarily had its multiplier changed.

By the way, the idea of an established form multiplier at the current status of the franchise has lost its purpose, given the amount of discrepancies in post Boo arc story arcs. It had a purpose back in the 90s, but right now it’s meaningless.

But Broly grows stronger as he fights.

Also, it's not the Great Ape form, it's Broly accessing this power via rage in his human form and then growing this power out over time. And he already grew to match Super Saiyan in just his base form prior to SSG Vegeta forcing him into accessing Oozaru power.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

But doesn't Vegeta say in Super Hero that Jiren wasn't that much powerful than them? This is mainly why I had UIO only 50 times SSB.

Hm... Good catch. Goku had just lumped Jiren with Broly and the GoDs though, and I doubt AT thinks Broly is just a bit stronger than them. Maybe at the end of the day Jiren's power is just like this statement from Piccolo:

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P14.3
Piccolo: “Commit this to memory: when we fight, we amplify what you guys call ‘energy’, causing it to explode. That’s why the energy you stole from me earlier doesn’t matter…”

Jiren (FP) >>> Jiren (Suppressed) > SSJB+ levels. Vegeta specifically says Jiren only isn't that strong when not fighting, but when he moves he's instantly overwhelming them. I'd sure like to have Goku and Vegeta not far from Jiren though... But when Goku was trading blows with Jiren without Kaio-Ken, who knows what's a real feat and what's Toeism?

And of course, Goku's first and second UI Sign levels having big multipliers but being surpassed not only looks ugly but also leaves 17 as a literal ant unless he was also getting fight power ups (Which I doubt, since AT specifically said that was a Saiyan ability). With all this bloat he's easily not even 1% of Goku and Vegeta, let alone Jiren.

This is more or less how I try to make sense of it. By no means it fixes all the powerscalling problems, but it ties nicely with the original intent of making SSGSS the new default Super Saiyan.

Gowasu says SSJ2 made Goku tens of times stronger though. I think at least the 50x multiplier is still taken into account, but since AT can't even remember the series already has "Super" in it's name who knows.

You know, it might not be too popular, but Kaboom's fusion theory actually fixes every problem.

I find it to be fairly popular out there, he wasn't even the one to come up with it. It's definitely my preferred method: Fusion by itself is already too broken, and while AT does tend to get carried away (Like in the Freeza Saga), I think he genuinely does not imagine Jiren/Broly/Beerus to be a million times stronger than Goku and Vegeta. That's more than anything the Freeza Saga ever pulled out. He also for sure didn't imagine Gohan and Gotenks to be more than a couple times above Goku in the Boo Saga since Goku still caught up to them while staying weaker than Freeza in base.

Talking about Base Goku and Freeza, I'd say SSJ3 Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks > Gotenks > Freeza > Base Goku is another non-intentional piece of evidence.

[ZombieVito]

SS3 Gotenks and Super Boo aren't even twice as strong as SS3 Goku in the Boo arc since Buff Boo > Super Boo and Buff Boo = Kid Boo + South Kaioshin so Goku catching up to them somewhat by BoG fits.

[Goku9001]

SS3 Gotenks and Super Boo aren't even twice as strong as SS3 Goku in the Boo arc since Buff Boo > Super Boo and Buff Boo = Kid Boo + South Kaioshin so Goku catching up to them somewhat by BoG fits.

I know how you came to that conclusion but according to your own logic, only Buutenks was indicated to be an additive boost. How do we know absorbing the Kaioshins is additive as well? It's clear that the Kaioshins have a more drastic impact on Buu's own physical being than absorbing Gotenks and Piccolo ever did so we can't just state that the boost is additive. That'd be a false equivalence.

And on the topic of that, I always felt as though fusions had smaller multipliers than the individuals do which helps account for Base Gotenks being many times stronger than the Super Saiyan kids while Base Goku can still remain weaker than Frieza. Even comparing the power Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks had compared to Super Saiyan Gotenks doesn't feel as drastic as Super Saiyan 3 was for Goku relative to 2. I think this is a good way for acknowledging the implications regarding Gotenks' power in the Buu Saga while still acknowledging Beerus' assessment of Base Goku compared to Frieza (if you choose to believe so). To claim that Base Gotenks was weaker than Frieza because Base Goku was would be pretty ridiculous given what we are told.

You know, it might not be too popular, but Kaboom's fusion theory actually fixes every problem.

The reduced multipliers? I always felt that was the best solution. Unfortunately, no supplementary material ever suggests it but it mitigates a lot of problems.

[Hugo Boss]

But Broly grows stronger as he fights.

Also, it's not the Great Ape form, it's Broly accessing this power via rage in his human form and then growing this power out over time. And he already grew to match Super Saiyan in just his base form prior to SSG Vegeta forcing him into accessing Oozaru power.

Broly’s base form is equally matched with Vegeta’s and he grows stronger as he fights because he is summoning the power of Great Ape until it becomes stabilized. Vegeta does something similar before he completes his Super Saiyan transformation. They are basically borrowing the power of their next forms in a weaker one.

Gowasu says SSJ2 made Goku tens of times stronger though. I think at least the 50x multiplier is still taken into account, but since AT can't even remember the series already has "Super" in it's name who knows.

“Tens of times” is not supposed to be read literally in Japanese. The only fixed multiplier in the anime is Kaioken.

[Goku9001]

Gowasu says SSJ2 made Goku tens of times stronger though. I think at least the 50x multiplier is still taken into account, but since AT can't even remember the series already has "Super" in it's name who knows.

“Tens of times” is not supposed to be read literally in Japanese. The only fixed multiplier in the anime is Kaioken.

What exactly does it mean in Japanese? I've always felt as though it was an arbitrary way to say "much stronger" but having further clarification on this would be nice.

[ankokudaishogun]

It means exactly that: a generic "a lot".

Depends on the original kanji though.

And Giant Ape also has a explicitly stated multiplier.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I remember promotional material from BoGs said SSJ was a 50x multiplier, but that's a couple years before even the RoF movie, let alone the rest of Super. At least the end of the movie implied Goku was getting a neglible SSJ boost when Goku absorbed most of SSJG, but since that was retconned twice (First when Super had him absorb all of it and again when Saiyan Beyond God was ditched) I'm not sure if that's still valid.

"Several tens of times" might be vague but I don't see why it would not mean what it literally means. Closest thing to that I can think of is Kaio-Ken x2 being "many times greater" than base according to Kaio.

[ZombieVito]

SS3 Gotenks and Super Boo aren't even twice as strong as SS3 Goku in the Boo arc since Buff Boo > Super Boo and Buff Boo = Kid Boo + South Kaioshin so Goku catching up to them somewhat by BoG fits.

I know how you came to that conclusion but according to your own logic, only Buutenks was indicated to be an additive boost. How do we know absorbing the Kaioshins is additive as well? It's clear that the Kaioshins have a more drastic impact on Buu's own physical being than absorbing Gotenks and Piccolo ever did so we can't just state that the boost is additive. That'd be a false equivalence.

And on the topic of that, I always felt as though fusions had smaller multipliers than the individuals do which helps account for Base Gotenks being many times stronger than the Super Saiyan kids while Base Goku can still remain weaker than Frieza. Even comparing the power Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks had compared to Super Saiyan Gotenks doesn't feel as drastic as Super Saiyan 3 was for Goku relative to 2. I think this is a good way for acknowledging the implications regarding Gotenks' power in the Buu Saga while still acknowledging Beerus' assessment of Base Goku compared to Frieza (if you choose to believe so). To claim that Base Gotenks was weaker than Frieza because Base Goku was would be pretty ridiculous given what we are told.

You know, it might not be too popular, but Kaboom's fusion theory actually fixes every problem.

The reduced multipliers? I always felt that was the best solution. Unfortunately, no supplementary material ever suggests it but it mitigates a lot of problems.

Because only the Grand Kaioshin was noted to be different.

[Hugo Boss]

It means exactly that: a generic "a lot".

Depends on the original kanji though.

And Giant Ape also has a explicitly stated multiplier.

Zamasu says “数十倍” (Sū jū-bai). Episode 53, for reference.

[Goku9001]

It means exactly that: a generic "a lot".

Depends on the original kanji though.

And Giant Ape also has a explicitly stated multiplier.

Zamasu says “数十倍” (Sū jū-bai). Episode 53, for reference.

Google translates that to "dozens of times" but what does that actually mean in Japanese?

I'm actually curious what the "many times stronger" statements in the original Dragon Ball come out to. My interpretation is that it's a generic way of saying "a lot stronger" as well but I'd also like some deeper insight on that.

[FPSSJ4_Goku]

What multipliers do you guys have for the Dragon Ball forms post-Super Saiyan 3?

Spoiler:

Here are mine.

--Dragon Ball GT/AF--
Golden Oozaru (x1,000)
Super Saiyan 4 (x8,000)
Full Power Super Saiyan 4 (x20,000)
Super Saiyan 5 (x50,000)

--Video Games (Raging Blast series and Dragon Ball Heroes)--
Legendary Super Saiyan 2 (x300)
Legendary Super Saiyan 3 (x1,200)
Legendary Super Saiyan 4 (x24,000)

--Revival Movies era--
Super Saiyan God (x8,000,000, 20k times Super Saiyan 3)
Golden Freeza (shit...if I had to guess, I'd say around Super Saiyan Blue level?
Super Saiyan Blue (x400,000,000)

--Dragon Ball Super anime--
Super Saiyan Rosé (x800,000,000)
Super Saiyan Rage (x400,000,000)
Perfected Super Saiyan Blue (x500,000,000)
Ultra Instinct Omen (x1,600,000,000,000)
Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (x10,000,000,000)
Ultra Instinct (x30,000,000,000,000)

--Movie exclusive forms--
Ikari (x10)
Super Saiyan C-Type (x50)
Full Power Super Saiyan (x200)
Potential Unleashed (Namekian) (x400)
Orange Piccolo (x20,000)
Beast Gohan (x30,000,000,000,000)

--Super DB Heroes--
Limit Breaker Super Saiyan 4 (x10,000,000)
Limit Breaker Legendary Super Saiyan 4 (What is with these long-ass names?! x30,000,000)
Super Saiyan Rosé 2 (x1,600,000,000)
Super Saiyan Rosé 3 (x6,400,000,000)
Super Saiyan Rosé Full Power (x8,000,000,000)

--Dragon Ball Super manga--
Perfected Super Saiyan Blue (x500,000,000)
Evolved Right Eye (x50)
Cerealian Full Power (x100)
Potential Unleashed (Cerealian) (x400)
Ultra Ego (x2,000,000,000,000)

[ZombieVito]

What multipliers do you guys have for the Dragon Ball forms post-Super Saiyan 3?

Spoiler:

Here are mine.

--Dragon Ball GT/AF--
Golden Oozaru (x1,000)
Super Saiyan 4 (x8,000)
Full Power Super Saiyan 4 (x20,000)
Super Saiyan 5 (x50,000)

--Video Games (Raging Blast series and Dragon Ball Heroes)--
Legendary Super Saiyan 2 (x300)
Legendary Super Saiyan 3 (x1,200)
Legendary Super Saiyan 4 (x24,000)

--Revival Movies era--
Super Saiyan God (x8,000,000, 20k times Super Saiyan 3)
Golden Freeza (shit...if I had to guess, I'd say around Super Saiyan Blue level?
Super Saiyan Blue (x400,000,000)

--Dragon Ball Super anime--
Super Saiyan Rosé (x800,000,000)
Super Saiyan Rage (x400,000,000)
Perfected Super Saiyan Blue (x500,000,000)
Ultra Instinct Omen (x1,600,000,000,000)
Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (x10,000,000,000)
Ultra Instinct (x30,000,000,000,000)

--Movie exclusive forms--
Ikari (x10)
Super Saiyan C-Type (x50)
Full Power Super Saiyan (x200)
Potential Unleashed (Namekian) (x400)
Orange Piccolo (x20,000)
Beast Gohan (x30,000,000,000,000)

--Super DB Heroes--
Limit Breaker Super Saiyan 4 (x10,000,000)
Limit Breaker Legendary Super Saiyan 4 (What is with these long-ass names?! x30,000,000)
Super Saiyan Rosé 2 (x1,600,000,000)
Super Saiyan Rosé 3 (x6,400,000,000)
Super Saiyan Rosé Full Power (x8,000,000,000)

--Dragon Ball Super manga--
Perfected Super Saiyan Blue (x500,000,000)
Evolved Right Eye (x50)
Cerealian Full Power (x100)
Potential Unleashed (Cerealian) (x400)
Ultra Ego (x2,000,000,000,000)

There's no Perfected Blue in the anime.

[Grimlock]

Why would Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Rosé have different multipliers?

You forgot Super Full Power Saiyan 4 for "Dragon Ball GT", which is different from Super Saiyan 4 Full Power, according to Dragon Ball Heroes. So it probably has its own multiplier.

Broly doesn't have Super Saiyan 2 in those games. In any game, for that matter. Unless this card belongs to a game, I wouldn't know.

"Legendary" is not part of the name of any recent Broly form. Though I guess it still doesn't make the names any less shorter.

[Goku9001]

The anime clearly has Super Saiyan Rose as a different multiplier. Base Goku Black had power surpassing Super Saiyan God and upon obtaining Rose, he wasn't drastically above the Blue Saiyans. In fact, even the manga seems to have Base Goku Black considerably stronger than the Base Saiyans. I would certainly say the multiplier is different even if it's the same form. Why Rose has a much higher multiplier? I have no idea. It should be significantly lower than Blue's.

And ZombieVito is correct. Perfected Blue does not exist in the anime continuity. That's strictly a manga concept.

[FPSSJ4_Goku]

What multipliers do you guys have for the Dragon Ball forms post-Super Saiyan 3?

Spoiler:

Here are mine.

--Dragon Ball GT/AF--
Golden Oozaru (x1,000)
Super Saiyan 4 (x8,000)
Full Power Super Saiyan 4 (x20,000)
Super Saiyan 5 (x50,000)

--Video Games (Raging Blast series and Dragon Ball Heroes)--
Legendary Super Saiyan 2 (x300)
Legendary Super Saiyan 3 (x1,200)
Legendary Super Saiyan 4 (x24,000)

--Revival Movies era--
Super Saiyan God (x8,000,000, 20k times Super Saiyan 3)
Golden Freeza (shit...if I had to guess, I'd say around Super Saiyan Blue level?
Super Saiyan Blue (x400,000,000)

--Dragon Ball Super anime--
Super Saiyan Rosé (x800,000,000)
Super Saiyan Rage (x400,000,000)
Perfected Super Saiyan Blue (x500,000,000)
Ultra Instinct Omen (x1,600,000,000,000)
Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (x10,000,000,000)
Ultra Instinct (x30,000,000,000,000)

--Movie exclusive forms--
Ikari (x10)
Super Saiyan C-Type (x50)
Full Power Super Saiyan (x200)
Potential Unleashed (Namekian) (x400)
Orange Piccolo (x20,000)
Beast Gohan (x30,000,000,000,000)

--Super DB Heroes--
Limit Breaker Super Saiyan 4 (x10,000,000)
Limit Breaker Legendary Super Saiyan 4 (What is with these long-ass names?! x30,000,000)
Super Saiyan Rosé 2 (x1,600,000,000)
Super Saiyan Rosé 3 (x6,400,000,000)
Super Saiyan Rosé Full Power (x8,000,000,000)

--Dragon Ball Super manga--
Perfected Super Saiyan Blue (x500,000,000)
Evolved Right Eye (x50)
Cerealian Full Power (x100)
Potential Unleashed (Cerealian) (x400)
Ultra Ego (x2,000,000,000,000)

There's no Perfected Blue in the anime.

That was a mistake on my end.

Why would Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Rosé have different multipliers?

I personally think that Black would've been weaker had he used Super Saiyan Blue rather than Super Saiyan Rosé, but I could be proven wrong.

You forgot Super Full Power Saiyan 4 for Dragon Ball GT, which is different from Super Saiyan 4 Full Power, according to Dragon Ball Heroes. So it probably has its own multiplier.

Super Full Power Saiyan 4 and Super Saiyan 4 Full Power seem to be different names for the same transformation.

Broly doesn't have Super Saiyan 2 in those games. In any game, for that matter. Unless this card belongs to a game, I wouldn't know.

It does belong to a game, specifically a carddass game with the Dragon Ball Kai moniker.

[ZombieVito]

The anime clearly has Super Saiyan Rose as a different multiplier. Base Goku Black had power surpassing Super Saiyan God and upon obtaining Rose, he wasn't drastically above the Blue Saiyans. In fact, even the manga seems to have Base Goku Black considerably stronger than the Base Saiyans. I would certainly say the multiplier is different even if it's the same form. Why Rose has a much higher multiplier? I have no idea. It should be significantly lower than Blue's.

And ZombieVito is correct. Perfected Blue does not exist in the anime continuity. That's strictly a manga concept.

Indeed.

I like to think Black is truly a Saiyan Beyond God in the anime. It's the only way to make sense of his base being >> SS3 Goku.

[Thani]

The anime clearly has Super Saiyan Rose as a different multiplier. Base Goku Black had power surpassing Super Saiyan God and upon obtaining Rose, he wasn't drastically above the Blue Saiyans. In fact, even the manga seems to have Base Goku Black considerably stronger than the Base Saiyans. I would certainly say the multiplier is different even if it's the same form. Why Rose has a much higher multiplier? I have no idea. It should be significantly lower than Blue's.

And ZombieVito is correct. Perfected Blue does not exist in the anime continuity. That's strictly a manga concept.

Indeed.

I like to think Black is truly a Saiyan Beyond God in the anime. It's the only way to make sense of his base being >> SS3 Goku.

He must also be that in the manga as well, since by Trunks' own admission his SS2 (who managed to match Goku in SS3) was unable to defeat Black in his base form.

[ZombieVito]

The anime clearly has Super Saiyan Rose as a different multiplier. Base Goku Black had power surpassing Super Saiyan God and upon obtaining Rose, he wasn't drastically above the Blue Saiyans. In fact, even the manga seems to have Base Goku Black considerably stronger than the Base Saiyans. I would certainly say the multiplier is different even if it's the same form. Why Rose has a much higher multiplier? I have no idea. It should be significantly lower than Blue's.

And ZombieVito is correct. Perfected Blue does not exist in the anime continuity. That's strictly a manga concept.

Indeed.

I like to think Black is truly a Saiyan Beyond God in the anime. It's the only way to make sense of his base being >> SS3 Goku.

He must also be that in the manga as well, since by Trunks' own admission his SS2 (who managed to match Goku in SS3) was unable to defeat Black in his base form.

And yet even with SS, he loses to SS2 Vegeta lol. Manga completely dropped the ball there.