Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

The anime clearly has Super Saiyan Rose as a different multiplier. Base Goku Black had power surpassing Super Saiyan God and upon obtaining Rose, he wasn't drastically above the Blue Saiyans. In fact, even the manga seems to have Base Goku Black considerably stronger than the Base Saiyans. I would certainly say the multiplier is different even if it's the same form. Why Rose has a much higher multiplier? I have no idea. It should be significantly lower than Blue's.

And ZombieVito is correct. Perfected Blue does not exist in the anime continuity. That's strictly a manga concept.

Indeed.

I like to think Black is truly a Saiyan Beyond God in the anime. It's the only way to make sense of his base being >> SS3 Goku.

He must also be that in the manga as well, since by Trunks' own admission his SS2 (who managed to match Goku in SS3) was unable to defeat Black in his base form.

Anime Black is a completely different beast.

In his Base form, he speed-blitzed SSB Vegeta's perception (his speed even shocked SSB Vegeta), shrugged off a flurry of his fists, and seriously hurt him with a simple kick to the guts.

And this was a Vegeta who had just gone through hardcore training in the gravity room after hearing that Black slaughtered his wife and ruined his son's life.

Base Black has mastodontic feats in the Anime.

[ZombieVito]

Indeed.

I like to think Black is truly a Saiyan Beyond God in the anime. It's the only way to make sense of his base being >> SS3 Goku.

He must also be that in the manga as well, since by Trunks' own admission his SS2 (who managed to match Goku in SS3) was unable to defeat Black in his base form.

Anime Black is a completely different beast.

In his Base form, he speed-blitzed SSB Vegeta's perception (his speed even shocked SSB Vegeta), shrugged off a flurry of his fists, and seriously hurt him with a simple kick to the guts.

And this was a Vegeta who had just gone through hardcore training in the gravity room after hearing that Black slaughtered his wife and ruined his son's life.

Base Black has mastodontic feats in the Anime.

SSB Vegeta wasn't going all out against base Black.

SSR Black visibly struggle for a moment when SSB Vegeta catched his punch later on.

[SupremeKai25]

SSB Vegeta wasn't going all out against base Black.

SSB Vegeta doesn't hold back against an opponent that killed his family. He didn't hold back when Perfect Cell killed his son and he wasn't holding back against Goku Black who killed his wife (and the thought of Black killing his wife was brought up in the training scene I was talking about).

The idea of Vegeta, prideful and arrogant, holding back against the man (that he called "bastard" and was visibly furious about in the previous episode) who killed his wife and ruined his son's life is completely out of character.

SSR Black visibly struggle for a moment when SSB Vegeta catched his punch later on.

Then proceeded to stomp him and almost kill him.

He didn't even turn into SSR out of necessity. He turned into SSR to "reward" Vegeta for his strength. Which means that Black could have comfortably kept fighting in Base form. He was that strong.

I'm not sure people here realize just how mastodontic Base Black's feats are.

[ZombieVito]

SSB Vegeta wasn't going all out against base Black.

SSB Vegeta doesn't hold back against an opponent that killed his family. He didn't hold back when Perfect Cell killed his son and he wasn't holding back against Goku Black who killed his wife (and the thought of Black killing his wife was brought up in the training scene I was talking about).

The idea of Vegeta, prideful and arrogant, holding back against the man (that he called "bastard" and was visibly furious about in the previous episode) who killed his wife and ruined his son's life is completely out of character.

SSR Black visibly struggle for a moment when SSB Vegeta catched his punch later on.

Then proceeded to stomp him and almost kill him.

He didn't even turn into SSR out of necessity. He turned into SSR to "reward" Vegeta for his strength. Which means that Black could have comfortably kept fighting in Base form. He was that strong.

I'm not sure people here realize just how mastodontic Base Black's feats are.

It's clear they are on par. Trunks wouldn't have asked if Goku and Black were equal otherwise. Also everyone was shocked when Black beat Vegeta. They wouldn't have been if he was multiple times stronger than Vegeta or Goku.

SSR is described as Black's Super Saiyan so base Black is 50 times weaker than SSR and sits at SSG tier.

[SupremeKai25]

It's clear they are on par

In his Base form alone, he 1) blitzed Vegeta's perceptions 2) Made Vegeta back off in concern right after, with Vegeta even commenting with confusion at how fast he was moving 3) shrugged off all of Vegeta's attacks 4) made him back off in concern a second time 5) kicked Vegeta in the guts so hard that he made him spit saliva (sign of significant physical damage) and knocked him backward.

He turned into SS Rosé, as per his own admission, to show off and reward Vegeta for his power gains, not because he needed.

Then, in SS Rosé, he oneshot and almost killed Vegeta while making fun of him and calling him an appetizer.

In no world where they on par.

Trunks wouldn't have asked if Goku and Black were equal otherwise

.... And Vegeta promptly replied that they were not.

Black was toying with them the entire time and was vastly superior. Vegeta realized this once he got stomped and humiliated.


Black literally had them knocked on the ground would have killed them all if Future Zamasu didn't intervene (he intervened specifically because he didn't want Black to kill them, as they agreed that Zamasu would kill Goku).

Also everyone was shocked when Black beat Vegeta. They wouldn't have been if he was multiple times stronger than Vegeta or Goku.

This makes no sense.

Following this logic, Goku and Vegeta aren't multiple times stronger than the U9 fodders because the U9 Gods were surprised when Goku and Vegeta solo'd their team.

Following this logic, Perfect Cell wasn't multiple times stronger than Mr. Satan because the entire world was surprised when Perfect Cell oneshot him.

SSR is described as Black's Super Saiyan so base Black is 50 times weaker than SSR and sits at SSG tier.

If he was only SSG Tier, he wouldn't have been able to do all of the above.

The fact that Vegeta felt the need to go SSB and still failed to deal any kind of damage whatsoever to Black (and was actually surprised by Black's speed and improvements from his previous fight with SS2 Goku) should already tell you that Black is not just SSG tier.

[Thani]

And yet Black didn't one-shot Goku during their fight right after, nor Trunks for that matter. It's not really that complicated, Black in Rosé IS supposed to be stronger than both Goku and Vegeta in Blue, but not so much that they can't fight back at all against him.

[ZombieVito]

And yet Black didn't one-shot Goku during their fight right after, nor Trunks for that matter. It's not really that complicated, Black in Rosé IS supposed to be stronger than both Goku and Vegeta in Blue, but not so much that they can't fight back at all against him.

Exactly.

Base Black can't be remotely close to SSB because his Super Saiyan (Which is a 50 times multiplier) is not THAT much stronger than it. Not even in the manga is SSR Black that superior to them. Vegeta with just 6 months in the RoSaT surpassed him.

[Goku9001]

Goku Black and Vegeta did grow stronger since Trunks arrived in the Present but it definitely seems like the interpretation is:

SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ Goku Black > Base Goku Black > SSJ Vegeta.

I think both the anime and manga are consistent in the idea that Super Saiyan isn't that large of a boost for Goku Black and that he's already insanely powerful even in his Base form. I personally have Rose close to a 2x multiplier for Base Goku Black. He's powerful enough to force Blue Vegeta to get serious but he's not so powerful in Rose that Goku is completely helpless. Logically, Rose should be a 50x multiplier for Goku Black but I don't think that's how it pans out based on his performance against Vegeta and Goku. This is roughly what I think:

SSJR Goku Black: 120
Blue Goku: 110
Blue Vegeta: 100
Base Goku Black: 60
Blue Vegeta (Initial): 55

[SupremeKai25]

And yet Black didn't one-shot Goku during their fight right after

He oneshot and nearly killed SSB Vegeta. That's all he needs. He doesn't need to oneshot Goku and Trunks too, because he already has a feat of oneshotting a SSB Saiyan in Vegeta.

And for the record, this wasn't a rusty Vegeta. This was a Vegeta who had just gone through rigorous and hardcore training the day before in the gravity chamber.

It's not really that complicated,

Indeed, it's not.

I have proven the many ways in which Base Black was toying with and showed [at the very least] relativity to SSB Vegeta, thus Base Black is already SSB tier.

but not so much that they can't fight back at all against him.

And SSB Vegeta isn't that much stronger than Base Black that Base Black can't fight back at all against him.

Honestly, you'd have to prove that SSB Vegeta is stronger than Base Black in the first place, since he has no feats that prove this from that ep. (no, catching a punch from SSR Black doesn't prove it, especially since he proceeded to get stomped), but that's irrelevant to my point that Base Black is SSB tier. I'd say I have already given ample evidence of this.

Base Black can't be remotely close to SSB because his Super Saiyan (Which is a 50 times multiplier) is not THAT much stronger than it. Not even in the manga is SSR Black that superior to them. Vegeta with just 6 months in the RoSaT surpassed him.

"Can't be remotely close to SSB" and yet he was speed-blitzing, shrugging off, and hurting SSB Vegeta.

Fixating on a number multiplier is pointless when the show demonstrates something else entirely. At best, you can argue that theoretically Base Black shouldn't be that stronger, but if you've actually watched the episode, you'll see that Base Black was, without a shadow of doubt, strong enough to toy with and dance around SSB Vegeta.

[Thani]

The show demonstrates three things. 1) Goku's and Vegeta's strength aren't apart in the same forms, save for kaioken. 2) Black drove a blade into Vegeta's guts while Vegeta was too busy slamming on him (to little effect, but still). And being pierced by a blade all the way to the other side of your body tends to drop people. 3) Black then went on to defeat Goku with ease, but never one-shotting him like he did Vegeta.

Black's fight against Vegeta in base is irrelevant since every fight of theirs later on is shown that Goku and Vegeta can contend against Black in Rosé even before their respective training and powering up, even if they're bound to lose eventually. In fact, a rage boost from Goku completely overwhelmed Black for a while until he improved further to surpass that boost. And even then his overall performance against the main characters didn't change all that much.

No one is denying that Black is stronger than the main duo, but let's not forget that writing techniques play a big role here. Black's fight against Vegeta is meant for two things: hype Black and worf Vegeta to show how dangerous Black is. It's the same thing that happened with Hit in the prior arc. He defeated Vegeta in Blue to show how dangerous he is, but then immediately after Goku in his base could land blows on him and endure his own blows after understanding how to counter his time skip - and later on he transforms for a proper fight.

That's what Black's initial fight against SSB Vegeta in base is for - to show Black got even stronger thanks to his spar with Goku previously, and then hype up his unveiling of Rosé. After that, the proper fight begins and every subsequent battle afterwards shows the same thing: Rosé Black is not, by himself, capable of just one-shotting either Goku or Vegeta... or even Trunks, for that matter.

[SupremeKai25]

1) Goku's and Vegeta's strength aren't apart in the same forms, save for kaioken.

This isn't demonstrated anywhere. SSB Goku has hilariously better feats than SSB Vegeta against SSR Black by virtue of not having been oneshot right away.

Nevertheless, Vegeta tells Trunks that Goku is no match for Black and we see that Black was about to finish off Goku with Rosé kamehameha until Zamasu intervened.

Black drove a blade into Vegeta's guts while Vegeta was too busy slamming on him (to little effect, but still).

He stopped slamming, he was trying to go in for a punch and was even looking at Black, he was simply too slow to react.

This is not surprising, since he was also too slow to react to Base Black getting near him and literally touching his chin, at which point Vegeta even commented with awe at how fast Black was moving.

Black's fight against Vegeta in base is irrelevant

It's not irrelevant, it shows that Black in his Base form alone can afford to toy with and dance around a SSB Saiyan with no repercussions, which disproves any idea that he's only SSG tier.

since every fight of theirs later on is shown that Goku and Vegeta can contend against Black in Rosé even before their respective training and powering up,

Their next fight, in ep. 61, is an absolute murder stomp where neither Goku nor Vegeta ever land a single hit on SSR Black (until Goku gets the rage boost which you acknowledged).

Rosé Black is not, by himself, capable of just one-shotting either Goku or Vegeta... or even Trunks, for that matter.

He oneshot Vegeta with the blade.

He oneshot Goku and Trunks with Rosé Kamehameha.

In the RoF movie special, Base Black oneshot Base Trunks with a random ki blast.

The fact that all these people needed boosts of some kind (Super Saiyan Rage for Trunks, the rage boost for Goku, the training boost for Vegeta) should already tell you that the writers think that, in their starting conditions, these guys stood no chance against Black.

And, indeed, we see from their rematch in ep. 61 that they truly stood no chance. They were all getting thrown around like trash by Black and couldn't land a single hit on him.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So now that we can fully look at and analyze DBS:SH's fights at home, we can better understand the exact nuances of how things played out.

From what I saw, base Gohan and Piccolo seem to be around on-par with one another, with Piccolo taking the edge with his fighting instincts due to him keeping up with his training. But get treated similarly by Gamma 1 and 2. This makes sense given how they were previously portrayed in the anime, as well as the tendency to make equivalences between characters' states.

As far as Ultimate Piccolo is concerned, while he was on the losing end, he was still landing good hits on Gamma 2 that the android was definitely feeling compared to their first fight, but he just couldn't get enough of them in compared to Gamma 2 going ham on him. Given how the Gammas are described as analyzing and adapting to fighting styles, with Ultimate Piccolo showing slight power inferiority to Ultimate Gohan, the difference ends up landing Piccolo worse off in comparison.

[ZombieVito]

So now that we can fully look at and analyze DBS:SH's fights at home, we can better understand the exact nuances of how things played out.

From what I saw, base Gohan and Piccolo seem to be around on-par with one another, with Piccolo taking the edge with his fighting instincts due to him keeping up with his training. But get treated similarly by Gamma 1 and 2. This makes sense given how they were previously portrayed in the anime, as well as the tendency to make equivalences between characters' states.

As far as Ultimate Piccolo is concerned, while he was on the losing end, he was still landing good hits on Gamma 2 that the android was definitely feeling compared to their first fight, but he just couldn't get enough of them in compared to Gamma 2 going ham on him. Given how the Gammas are described as analyzing and adapting to fighting styles, with Ultimate Piccolo showing slight power inferiority to Ultimate Gohan, the difference ends up landing Piccolo worse off in comparison.

Yeah, the movie follows the anime ToP scaling with having Piccolo and base Gohan be on par.

Something interesting happens with Gamma 2 vs Ultimate Piccolo. Gamma 2 says he's Dr. Hedo's masterpiece. Could he be stronger than Gamma 1? Was he talking about the Gammas in general?

[QuakingStar]

Gamma 1 and 2 are said to be the Ultimate Androids, previously 17 was said to be the Ultimate Android. We know 17 was at least SSB tier in power. This means both the Gammas are above 17 and Ultimate Gohan had the edge against Gamma 1 while Gamma 2 had more of an edge against Ultimate Piccolo. It shows that Ultimate Piccolo isn't so far behind the Gammas and he isn't so far behind Ultimate Gohan.

[FPSSJ4_Goku]

SSR is described as Black's Super Saiyan so base Black is 50 times weaker than SSR and sits at SSG tier.

Really? I had assumed that his multiplier was his Super Saiyan Blue. Or did I just think that the manga and anime multiplier were the same?

[ZombieVito]

SSR is described as Black's Super Saiyan so base Black is 50 times weaker than SSR and sits at SSG tier.

Really? I had assumed that his multiplier was his Super Saiyan Blue. Or did I just think that the manga and anime multiplier were the same?

SSR can't have the same multiplier as SSB. SSR Black isn't THAT much stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta and his base is already far superior than SS3.

[Grimlock]

The anime clearly has Super Saiyan Rose as a different multiplier. Base Goku Black had power surpassing Super Saiyan God and upon obtaining Rose, he wasn't drastically above the Blue Saiyans.

How did this happen (twice), then? Goku Black, as Super Saiyan Rosé, takes them out of their Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan forms three times. I doubt someone who isn't "drastically" above the other could do that and consistently.

I personally think that Black would've been weaker had he used Super Saiyan Blue rather than Super Saiyan Rosé, but I could be proven wrong.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Rosé are the same transformations, which logically and at the very least, implies the same multiplier. He would have the same power.

(It seems promotional material claims that Super Saiyan Rosé is his Super Saiyan, most likely because Toei didn't portray his regular Super Saiyan. But given Super Saiyan Rosé's design, it's obvious that isn't Goku Black's regular Super Saiyan).

[SupremeKai25]

The anime clearly has Super Saiyan Rose as a different multiplier. Base Goku Black had power surpassing Super Saiyan God and upon obtaining Rose, he wasn't drastically above the Blue Saiyans.

How did this happen (twice), then? Goku Black, as Super Saiyan Rosé, takes them out of their Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan forms three times. I doubt someone who isn't "drastically" above the other could do that and consistently.

Yep, and also don't forget about the first half of ep. 61, where he was completely toying with SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta, who couldn't even land a single hit on him (granted, the first ki barrage was blocked by Future Zamasu; but after that, Goku and Vegeta both tried to attack Black and failed utterly and were humiliated).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxpgpzSO6DI

(It seems promotional material claims that Super Saiyan Rosé is his Super Saiyan, most likely because Toei didn't portray his regular Super Saiyan. But given Super Saiyan Rosé's design, it's obvious that isn't Goku Black's regular Super Saiyan).

To begin with, it's not just promotional material that states that. He is explicitly referred to as a Super Saiyan in the Anime itself:

Spoiler:

Which is why in Super Dragon Ball Heroes anime (which is produced by Toei and follows Anime continuity, for instance look at Fused Zamasu and his bandages over his Corrupted half from the anime), Black later evolves Rosé to Rosé 2 (with lightning sparkles like SS2) and Rosé 3 (with long hair and no eyebrows like SS3). Because Rosé is his own version of SS1.

Secondly, Toriyama's own design notes refer to him as a "Super Saiyan":

Spoiler:

So, in Toei Anime Continuity and in Toriyama's own design notes, Super Saiyan Rosé is Goku Black's version of Super Saiyan.

This means that, when Black was stomping these guys, he was in Super Saiyan form.

It's only in Toyotaro Manga continuity where Super Saiyan Rosé is a version of Super Saiyan Blue.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So, in Toei Anime Continuity and in Toriyama's own design notes, Super Saiyan Rosé is Goku Black's version of Super Saiyan.

This is straight up misleading. The very note you posted has AT saying Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Rosé are different forms. Any version of Super Saiyan can be called a Super Saiyan, in fact Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is just a Super Saiyan with the power of a god, so naturally Rosé would be both Goku Black's SSJ and SSJGSSJ.

[QuakingStar]

So, in Toei Anime Continuity and in Toriyama's own design notes, Super Saiyan Rosé is Goku Black's version of Super Saiyan.

This is straight up misleading. The very note you posted has AT saying Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Rosé are different forms. Any version of Super Saiyan can be called a Super Saiyan, in fact Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is just a Super Saiyan with the power of a god, so naturally Rosé would be both Goku Black's SSJ and SSJGSSJ.

This. They also are failing to mention that Black is ALWAYS in Godlike-Saiyan state. The only reason he had a normal looking SS was because he was using the same SS with God-like power that Goku was using vs Beerus. The moment it evolved in power enough it became SSGSS therefor for him SSRose IS SS/SSGSS. There is no normal base form for Goku Black, just God-like Saiyan.