Grimlock wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:32 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 2:36 pmYou're way too zealous and excitable on topics like this and always resort attacking everyone on the most minute disagreements,
"Attacking"? Did you feel "attack"? I am approaching this with you in a more serious/challenging way not only because Kanzenshuu encourages this kind of conversation (it's written in the forum rules...), but because this is not even the third time I see you saying something you don't know about in regards to Heroes, that is why I didn't go too lightly on you. I suggest instead of feeling "victimized" (for no reason, really. I read my post a number of times and made all the modifications necessary before submitting it to ensure any of you feel "attacked") you do the same. If I am "attacking" something, it would be just your arguments, not you.
But I will understand if this type of conversation is unpleasant to you, it's not for everyone indeed. So I will, from now on, try to avoid it with you (since I'm at it, a heads-up for everyone: expect this kind of conversation from me, depending on the occasion. Even in posts you agree with me, as much as I appreciate it, I will respond to something I disagree or is simply not true. Like in this one in specific, this is not a case to agree or disagree, I'm not posting my opinions. I think by the numbers of links/evidences I post should make that clear). That is why I "ignored the rest of your point completely",
LoganForkHands73, I had nothing to add since you were agreeing with me.
Right, okay, but you understand how frustrating it is for someone to be like "hey man, cool post, I agree with you on this" and to give a load of points, i.e. interacting like a normal person, only for all the substantive parts they put the most effort into to not even be acknowledged, instead the other person hyper-fixates on one tiny strand of the post that they take issue with. In this particular case, you predictably zoned straight in on the Heroes part of my comment like a shark smelling blood, extracted the sentence completely out of context, gave it the whole "citation needed" routine, assumed my arguments when I made none to begin with, and seemingly dismissed anything else I had to say on the topic in a contemptuous tone. Whether you intended to attack me or my arguments, what other conclusion am I supposed to draw from that kind of confrontational attitude?
If I responded to every single person who slandered Super, GT, Heroes or anything else, I'd be here all day for the rest of my life and beyond. I already know how you prefer to conduct yourself here so I don't know why I expected anything different, but I won't make the same mistake in the future.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 2:36 pmmy point is that as it stands, it currently could be confusing to fans and may lend credence to the idea that Rosé is Black's equivalent to the original Super Saiyan forms because no such transformations as Super Saiyan Blue 2 or 3 exist in the main Super storyline
yet and probably won't ever come about, in all likelihood.
It's Dragon Ball Super's fault for not properly explaining stuff. Though, in this case, there is an explanation but it comes from a media that not everyone keep up with. But be that as it may, whether we like it or not, we have to go after everything. We can't get any kind of information solely from one place and call it a day. On this day and age, we need an Internet and we need to search for additional/supplementary information if we hope to understand anything. So if the fans are feeling confusing, they need to go and get additional aid by however way they can.
That said, as it stands, it is still confusing the way Dragon Ball Super handled this thing. Because, to me, it did lend credence to the idea that if Super Saiyan Rosé is the combination of Goku Black's god status/Ki with Super Saiyan, then why the heck didn't he combine it with Super Saiyan 2 at least? I understand him not doing it with Super Saiyan 3, but Super Saiyan 2 has minor to no drawbacks. So Super Saiyan Rosé 2 should have appeared in the series as well.
And it is still confusing because, even with the Internet at my disposal, there is no explanation or logical reason as to why Goku Black didn't use Super Saiyan Rosé 2. So if we have to blame something/someone, it's Toriyama, Toyotaro and Toei (and to thank Dimps for correcting that mistake by showing us this concept).
(All of the above goes to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2 as well, which should have been a much wiser decision than combining its previous form with Kaio-Ken instead).
Well, that's kinda the heart of it, isn't it? The explanations we have are vague enough that people have made their own subjective interpretations, none of which are completely invalid, quite a rare phenomenon for a franchise like Dragon Ball where fans are used to concrete answers and statistics. I can't definitively say that someone like
SupremeKai is 100% wrong even though I may disagree with his interpretation. My position was mostly based on what makes the most sense to me on a narrative and aesthetic level, which is that Super Saiyan Rose seems designed to be most analogous to Super Saiyan Blue. The likelier explanation is that Rose is just its own separate thing with its own separate rules.
Who can say why either Goku or Goku Black haven't enhanced their God forms to 2 or 3 levels, it's just something Super hasn't acknowledged -- the writers probably just don't want to retread that kind of path with the God forms and that's fine, especially since Ultra Instinct was always the endgame of Super.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 2:36 pmI'm probably one of the select few regulars on this forum who's willing to acknowledge Heroes on a serious level and give it a fair shake for what it is, even though there are plenty of occasions where it becomes completely irreconcilable with Toriyama's Dragon Ball (which, as you should know after commenting on my big Toei thread, I have no inherent problem with) so there's no point in antagonising me over this. Again, simmer the hell down.
Then why haven't we had any conversation related to Heroes yet? I have been wanting one of those, but people rarely provide anything substantial. All they would say is the same old nonsense you would expect from a person who does not understand/know what they are talking about.
That occasionally frustrates me too, but if people are willing to have a proper in-depth discussion about it, I'd be happy to jump in. As just one example of me taking Heroes into account alongside the better-regarded series, I included Grand Priest in an old thread about Goku's martial arts masters.
Sometimes I doubt it's their intention to be "reconcilable" with Toriyama's Dragon Ball, after all, it is being done by a bunch of other people not named "Akira Toriyama". And, as I always say, expect more of this "deviation" in the future. You don't think Toriyama will be around forever, do you? Others will take over and will do their own thing, so it's best for you to... I don't know, get used to it? It's all you will be able to do anyway, I'm afraid. So I think and my advice is: the sooner you do it, the better.
I assume you're referring to the royal "you" here because that's precisely my point.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 6:19 am
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 8:38 pm
As
Grimlock says, in-universe, the characters regularly make no clear distinctions when talking about Super Saiyan forms in dialogue, which is pretty naturalistic.
It can be excused with the normal old Super Saiyan forms because they don't actually have names, they're just numbered.
I don't remember this ever happening with the new forms, which have actual names (God, Blue, etc.).
The example above of Vegeta referring to SSB as "Legendary Super Saiyan" was to mock Frieza about his fear of the original prophecy about the "Legendary Super Saiyan". It was in a specific context.
Beyond that, characters don't refer to the God forms as simply "Super Saiyan".
Also, the Anime Promotional Guide makes a clear distinction between Black's Super Saiyan form and the SSGSS form:
This guide is an extremely valuable and precious source because it exists to describe and clarify what is happening on-screen. It is telling us that Black's Super Saiyan Rosé form is just his version of Super Saiyan, but it has enough power to be a match for SSGSS (thus establishing a clear distinction between his SS form and SSGSS).
You would also have to explain why Black never used or even just referenced his Golden-haired form in the Anime. I posted a video above which shows us that Black, even during his first flashback fight ever with Trunks at the start of his invasion, was fighting in Base form, and not in SS1 form.
I'm fairly sure that when Goku first unlocks God, the other characters speculate on what kind of Super Saiyan he is. I think when the characters -- and, in this case, the guidebooks and authors -- want to drum up speculation on new Super Saiyan forms, they refer to them in more general terms like that. For another example, I can't remember if they are based on lines from the anime, but the Super Saiyan Blue versions of Goku and Vegeta in FighterZ simply refer to their form as Super Saiyan God in some of their intro and outro quotes.
The uniqueness of Rosé makes it difficult to compare 1-to-1 to the other forms we've seen, but I believe the mixture of a Super Saiyan form with Zamasu's innate divine ki makes it more comparable to Blue. Super Saiyan is all primal power, but Blue and Rosé both have a philosophy of mixing calmness and godliness with that power. In the manga, Black's power is tied to how closely his body and soul are connected -- Rosé is the result of Black unlocking the full limits of his divine power after a huge Zenkai boost, allowing him to evolve past his basic Super Saiyan form which relied only on the brute strength of his Saiyan body. It's possible that the anime version always had access to his godly potential and just needed Trunks as a punching bag to draw it out, skipping over any need to rely on a golden-haired form.
As to why Toriyama neglected to draw golden-haired Black, maybe he viewed it as unnecessary seeing as the hairstyle would naturally be almost identical to the pink-haired form? I don't think he gave Cabba a Super Saiyan concept design even though his transformation was a major part of the storyline.
Do you think that Zamasu could evolve Rose further with the Super Saiyan God ritual?
