Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Almighty Majin]

But he stills uses his bulk up form at the ToP and the Broly movie implies that he can use all his previous transformations.

Many characters in the series are able to bulk up and go over their limits so I think he'll always have access to that form. Although, I did forget about that one scene in Broly when Freeza's second form was mentioned when they were discussing his height so you are right that he can still transform into those other forms. In that case, I don't see why the multipliers would be so different from Namek then.

[QuakingStar]

The mind control program for Cell max was not complete. Obviously Toriyama's statement about Cell Max not being done is pertaining to that instance.

The mind control program was only that, mind control. Toriyama was saying Cell Max went berserk because the mind control wasn't complete while the actual voice lines and events of the movie show that Cell Max's power on the other hand was indeed complete.

[Goku9001]

The mind control program for Cell max was not complete. Obviously Toriyama's statement about Cell Max not being done is pertaining to that instance.

The mind control program was only that, mind control. Toriyama was saying Cell Max went berserk because the mind control wasn't complete while the actual voice lines and events of the movie show that Cell Max's power on the other hand was indeed complete.

Toriyama definitely thinks there is a distinction between Incomplete Cell Max and Complete Cell Max if he felt the need to clarify that only Completed Cell Max would defeat Broly. That coincides with what Vegeta and Whis conveyed in the beginning where having control over your power greatly improves your combat ability. I wouldn't expect Hedo to provide that explanation since he doesn't understand the nuances of battle power the way Vegeta, Whis, or the viewers do.

[Thani]

Well, I just finished the movie, and I gotta say...

Cell Max, as powerful as he was portrayed, definitely didn't follow the usual power structure so prevalent in DB (and even in the same movie!). He was constantly being pushed back either by energy blasts or physical strikes by Goten/Trunks/Gotenks, SS Gohan, Piccolo, the Gammas and 18. They never manage to actually cause damage (aside from Gamma #2's sacrifice and Gotenk's headbutt), but Cell is visibly pushed back just as much as he ignore hits. I like this, honestly.

Piccolo compared the Gamma's to Goku and Vegeta after their first fight, where he actually held his own for a little while - afterwards that same Gamma would still beat Piccolo yet again before he goes Orange. Considering how disappointed Gamma #2 was after the first fight and how, by going all out, he still defeated a much stronger Piccolo (while Gamma #1 was fighting U!Gohan to a standstill), it lends credence that he's on par with the saiyan duo.

I did feel Beast Gohan was out of place - this was clearly a Piccolo movie after all - but as strong as he was there were clues that he wasn't unbearably so. He tanked a punch from Cell Max as if it was nothing and then sent him flying with a kick. Right, but when Cell was charging his final attack Gohan actually smiled in what to me looked like excitement - something Gohan never did against Cell outside of the idea of torturing him. Afterwards, Piccolo comments that Gamma #2's sacrifice lowered Cell's "attack power". He didn't say anything about ki, but rather chose the wording "attack", which to me seemed as justification for why his punch failed to do anything to Gohan.

It's all rather subjective, but the gist of it would be B!Gohan > Cell MAX > O!Piccolo > Gammas/SSB Goku&Vegeta by whatever degree you'd like. Piccolo was also exhausted when he fought Cell as a giant, so that's also a factor to acknowledge.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Gamma 2's attack also never lowered his power level, just his ATTACK power and it makes sense when you consider his literal left arm was destroyed.

https://i.imgur.com/LDwsBBk.png

Great catch. This explains why Gohan could tank Cell's punch but still needed to charge a Makkankosappo to kill him.

By the way, what's everyone opinion on Freeza and his transformation boosts in RoF? Are they the same as in Namek or different?

Sure, why not? It actually makes sense for them to stay the same to highlight the difference between Freeza and everyone else in RoF: He's one shotting everyone at like, 1/200th of his power. Freeza did make the forms on his own though, so it is more believable said multipliers could change than say, SSJ's multiplier. In the end it could go either way, but common sense would lean towards them staying the same.

Related to that, Frost seems to have different multipliers, or at least he doesn't have the same amount of control as Freeza: He's much stronger than Goku in his 3rd form, but his 4th form is complete fodder to SSJ Goku.

Now, the real question is... Are Freeza and Frost walking around at 50% or 70%?

[ZombieVito]

Sure, why not? It actually makes sense for them to stay the same to highlight the difference between Freeza and everyone else in RoF: He's one shotting everyone at like, 1/200th of his power. Freeza did make the forms on his own though, so it is more believable said multipliers could change than say, SSJ's multiplier. In the end it could go either way, but common sense would lean towards them staying the same.

Related to that, Frost seems to have different multipliers, or at least he doesn't have the same amount of control as Freeza: He's much stronger than Goku in his 3rd form, but his 4th form is complete fodder to SSJ Goku.

Now, the real question is... Are Freeza and Frost walking around at 50% or 70%?

Because I'm a minimalist and don't want base Goku to be over half a trillion at RoF but I guess it's unavoidable.

I say 50% for both of them.

[GatoF]

How strong do you guys expect Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks, Goten and Pan to be until the Super Hero adaptation in the manga?
Beast Gohan stronger than Black Freeza, UI Goku, UE Vegeta, Gas, Granola and LSSJ Broly?
Orange Piccolo in the same league surpassing characters like Full Power Jiren?
Goten and Trunks are super behind and probably still in the Ssj1 tier of the Buu arc. Even though they really need i don't expect any great power up.
Maybe Pan is already stronger than most people of the Saiyan arc?

[ZombieVito]

How strong do you guys expect Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks, Goten and Pan to be until the Super Hero adaptation in the manga?
Beast Gohan stronger than Black Freeza, UI Goku, UE Vegeta, Gas, Granola and LSSJ Broly?
Orange Piccolo in the same league surpassing characters like Full Power Jiren?
Goten and Trunks are super behind and probably still in the Ssj1 tier of the Buu arc. Even though they really need i don't expect any great power up.
Maybe Pan is already stronger than most people of the Saiyan arc?

Yes. I do believe Gohan is the character seen by the Oracle Fish in the Granolah arc as the strongest in the universe.

Piccolo being on Jiren's level seems fine. Toriyama said he possesses power on par with Goku and the others with his Orange form after all.

The boys should be stronger than their Boo arc selves but not much.

Goten and Trunks were already easily over 10 million in base back in the Boo arc without any training. I expect Pan to be closing in to that level thanks to Piccolo's training.

[Hugo Boss]

How strong do you guys expect Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks, Goten and Pan to be until the Super Hero adaptation in the manga?

I’m mostly interested in how Toyotaro will reconcile the movie and the manga powerlevel contradictions. Gohan could possibly be a good contender to Black Freeza, while Piccolo may be comparable to Goku and Vegeta’s ultra forms. Goten, Trunks and Pan I honestly have no say about it.

[QuakingStar]

The mind control program for Cell max was not complete. Obviously Toriyama's statement about Cell Max not being done is pertaining to that instance.

The mind control program was only that, mind control. Toriyama was saying Cell Max went berserk because the mind control wasn't complete while the actual voice lines and events of the movie show that Cell Max's power on the other hand was indeed complete.

Toriyama definitely thinks there is a distinction between Incomplete Cell Max and Complete Cell Max if he felt the need to clarify that only Completed Cell Max would defeat Broly. That coincides with what Vegeta and Whis conveyed in the beginning where having control over your power greatly improves your combat ability. I wouldn't expect Hedo to provide that explanation since he doesn't understand the nuances of battle power the way Vegeta, Whis, or the viewers do.

That's not a difference in power, that's a difference in controlling oneself. LSSJ Broly was also Berserk, but they said in a later interview essentially he was as powerful as SSB Gogeta he was just going Berserk. Cell Max is in the same boat, his power made him stronger than Broly but like Broly he was going Berserk. Gohan still tanked his full force punch with his aura alone and that makes Gohan at the bare minimum twice as strong as Cell Max meaning Beast Gohan would be twice as strong as Broly at bare minimum who was insinuated to again be stronger than Goku and Vegeta.

[Goku9001]

The mind control program was only that, mind control. Toriyama was saying Cell Max went berserk because the mind control wasn't complete while the actual voice lines and events of the movie show that Cell Max's power on the other hand was indeed complete.

Toriyama definitely thinks there is a distinction between Incomplete Cell Max and Complete Cell Max if he felt the need to clarify that only Completed Cell Max would defeat Broly. That coincides with what Vegeta and Whis conveyed in the beginning where having control over your power greatly improves your combat ability. I wouldn't expect Hedo to provide that explanation since he doesn't understand the nuances of battle power the way Vegeta, Whis, or the viewers do.

That's not a difference in power, that's a difference in controlling oneself. LSSJ Broly was also Berserk, but they said in a later interview essentially he was as powerful as SSB Gogeta he was just going Berserk. Cell Max is in the same boat, his power made him stronger than Broly but like Broly he was going Berserk. Gohan still tanked his full force punch with his aura alone and that makes Gohan at the bare minimum twice as strong as Cell Max meaning Beast Gohan would be twice as strong as Broly at bare minimum who was insinuated to again be stronger than Goku and Vegeta.

Indeed. So FPSSJ Broly was as powerful as Gogeta Blue and yet, because he was berserk, clashing with Gogeta Blue's caused him to be shaken back. That would in fact support what I am saying. Nonetheless, you haven't offered any proof since Broly being equal to Gogeta Blue has nothing to do with whether or not proper control can improve power. According to Toriyama, the strength of mind plays a significant role in battle power and Cell Max's mind was incomplete. Logically, we can infer that Cell Max was not as powerful as he should be.

[Koitsukai]

According to Toriyama, the strength of mind plays a significant role in battle power and Cell Max's mind was incomplete. Logically, we can infer that Cell Max was not as powerful as he should be.

Yeah, that's the clearest example of shouki (mind/mindset, etc). Cell Max was not on the right mindset, meaning his ki could've been higher than it was.
Nappa improved almost twice after dialing the right shouki vs Goku, same as Bardock, and they were already thinking creatures, they weren't lacking a neo cortex like Cell Max. I feel the difference between a dumb Cell Max and a 'smart' one would be significant.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

According to Toriyama, the strength of mind plays a significant role in battle power and Cell Max's mind was incomplete. Logically, we can infer that Cell Max was not as powerful as he should be.

Yeah, that's the clearest example of shouki (mind/mindset, etc). Cell Max was not on the right mindset, meaning his ki could've been higher than it was.
Nappa improved almost twice after dialing the right shouki vs Goku, same as Bardock, and they were already thinking creatures, they weren't lacking a neo cortex like Cell Max. I feel the difference between a dumb Cell Max and a 'smart' one would be significant.

The dialogue about Jiren in the movie perfectly demonstrates this. He's put on the same pedestal as Broly and the Gods of Destruction, with his main attribute being his complete focus and ability to finely control his power at a moment's notice without skipping a beat when either resting or moving to attack.

Sure, he's massively powerful, but his greatest strength was his absolute mastery over controlling his Ki.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Toriyama definitely thinks there is a distinction between Incomplete Cell Max and Complete Cell Max if he felt the need to clarify that only Completed Cell Max would defeat Broly. That coincides with what Vegeta and Whis conveyed in the beginning where having control over your power greatly improves your combat ability. I wouldn't expect Hedo to provide that explanation since he doesn't understand the nuances of battle power the way Vegeta, Whis, or the viewers do.

Nobody could give that explanation because that was never the plan to begin with. Magenta was going to control Cell and I doubt whatever kind of influence he’d have was going to unlock more of Cell’s power. The only difference is that Cell would be far more competent and focused on killing rather than just trying to fend off the fighters.

How strong do you guys expect Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks, Goten and Pan to be until the Super Hero adaptation in the manga?
Beast Gohan stronger than Black Freeza, UI Goku, UE Vegeta, Gas, Granola and LSSJ Broly?
Orange Piccolo in the same league surpassing characters like Full Power Jiren?
Goten and Trunks are super behind and probably still in the Ssj1 tier of the Buu arc. Even though they really need i don't expect any great power up.
Maybe Pan is already stronger than most people of the Saiyan arc?

Yeah, that’s more or less what I’m expecting for everyone. Beast Gohan is the true strongest of the universe, Piccolo is on pair with Goku and Vegeta, and the formers’ Ultimate forms are on pair with the laters’ SSJB forms.

I’d say the boys are more or less the same as Gohan from the Boo Saga since that’s where I think they peaked back then. They’re more or less the same age as Gohan was too so it makes sense.

With how progressively stronger the half Saiyans get, I think Pan is at the very least much stronger than Gohan was in the Saiyan and Freeza Sagas. Single digit millions for her.

[Goku9001]

Toriyama definitely thinks there is a distinction between Incomplete Cell Max and Complete Cell Max if he felt the need to clarify that only Completed Cell Max would defeat Broly. That coincides with what Vegeta and Whis conveyed in the beginning where having control over your power greatly improves your combat ability. I wouldn't expect Hedo to provide that explanation since he doesn't understand the nuances of battle power the way Vegeta, Whis, or the viewers do.

Nobody could give that explanation because that was never the plan to begin with. Magenta was going to control Cell and I doubt whatever kind of influence he’d have was going to unlock more of Cell’s power. The only difference is that Cell would be far more competent and focused on killing rather than just trying to fend off the fighters.

We aren't talking about Magenta's control over Cell Max. We are specifically referring to Cell Max's control over his own power. Cell Max lacked stability which we argue reduced his power or combat ability. This is seen with both Nappa and Ginyu and something both Whis and Vegeta hint at in Super Hero. The reason why Magenta wouldn't mention it is because he's ignorant and doesn't really care because based on what Hedo is telling him, Cell Max will be the strongest in the world.

But aside from our own interpretations, Toriyama clearly sees a distinction between the two if he felt the need to address that only a Completed Cell Max would overcome Broly.

[Miracles]

The mind control program for Cell max was not complete. Obviously Toriyama's statement about Cell Max not being done is pertaining to that instance.

The mind control program was only that, mind control. Toriyama was saying Cell Max went berserk because the mind control wasn't complete while the actual voice lines and events of the movie show that Cell Max's power on the other hand was indeed complete.

Akira Toriyama: "If Cell Max was completed according to plan, he would of been a superhuman even Broly couldn't defeat...,"

"According to plan" includes Cell Max's mind control. Which was definitely in Hedo's script for Cell Max.

[QuakingStar]

Hedo said he was already complete, only his mind CONTROL program was not. Meaning THEY wanted to control HIM. It wouldn't have made him stronger at all. Nappa was never under mind control, neither was LSS Broly. The reason Broly was losing was due to skill and speed, he was equal to SSB Gogeta power wise with them saying in some interview that if he controlled himself(actual thinking and using his skill better) he could have won. Cell Max was above Broly no matter how you try to slice it.

[Miracles]

Spoiler:

If we pay attention to context. Hedo tells Magenta that Cell Max is "nearly complete." That Cell Max "himself" is finished but more time for his mind control program is needed.

So Cell Max "himself [Body/Form]" was finished but not the other part of the program, mind control. This all encompasses the "nearly complete" statement from Hedo.

[Goku9001]

There's no way around it. Hedo intended for Cell Max's mental program to be complete before he was released. That's explicitly why Hedo opposed Magenta by stating that his mental program was incomplete so he could not be controlled. Magenta and Hedo wanting to control Cell Max does not at all imply that Cell Max would not have been stronger with an unstable mind. The fact that Toriyama's own work is consistent with the idea that control over your power is essential in battle along with the need to clarify that a Completed Cell Max is necessary to overpower Broly should be enough evidence that Cell Max was never at full power.

[Hugo Boss]

Cell Max was completely mindless, no matter what part was missing, he had no ideals or feelings. Of course if he had a mind in the first place he would possess the original Cell’s attributes and that would make him a remarkable opponent. This is what Toriyama was talking about.

Think of it like using the power of Golden Great Ape in SS4 form.