"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Mr Baggins]

Apparently they won't retell the entire movie like Toyotaro did with BOG arc and the arc end will lead to the movie beginning (Hedo in prison).

Good. With the sole exception of an understandable 4-chapter prologue/recap i.e. BoG, the manga is written to be a companion to the movies, not a revision of them. Adapting Super Hero itself would feel inconsistent and be a massive waste of time, effort, and talent.

I should mention that I'm beyond excited to see where this little prequel arc goes. I'm not at all surprised that Toriyama contributed so much to the first chapter, and even Toyotaro's romcom elements feel in line with the rest of the writing here. It might well be the recovery the manga needed.

Also, the inspiration for Black Freeza is fucking perfect.

[dragonballhero]

So, they're ending this little mini-arc with Hedo's arrest, right? Thank GOD!

I was so worried that this whole thing was going to be a straight-up retelling of the events of Super Hero, and like someone here had mentioned, a full-on retelling of that movie (especially after the original movie's theatrical release 6-7 months prior, no less) would have been such a huge waste of time.

I was honestly considering skipping the manga for a couple of months if that really was going to be the case after Goten and Trunks' little Saiyamen X stint in the story had come to an end.

Speaking of Goten and Trunks, I'm going to be real here. The fact that Toyotaro (and Toriyama himself, apparently) barely said anything about Goten's involvement in this story is REALLY worrying me to no end. Like, this is the first time a DB manga story has focused on these two in 20+ years, and Trunks already has more than enough to help him get by, but Goten? I still wonder what this kid's ACTUAL personality is aside from being 'Goku, if he grew up around civilization'.

At the very least, I hope that Goten (despite how he's been depicted so far) is something of a 'Clueless Chick Magnet'.

[OLKv3]

Goten always gonna be Trunks' sideman and fusion component

[batistabus]

I don't mind if Goten doesn't stand much on his own as long as he compliments Trunks well, which he did in the original manga and in DBS88. As for being a less interesting Goku stand-in, that's also fine if handled properly. He retains the essence of Goku's iconic look/reactions, and like Goku and Gohan, he emanates purity. Where Goku is an idiot and Gohan is a ditz, high school Goten (based on one chapter) appears much more put together; it's subversive on its face but makes sense considering the character's life history. We'll see if he exhibits the Son selfishness moving forward.

[LoganForkHands73]

I don't mind if Goten doesn't stand much on his own as long as he compliments Trunks well, which he did in the original manga and in DBS88. As for being a less interesting Goku stand-in, that's also fine if handled properly. He retains the essence of Goku's iconic look/reactions, and like Goku and Gohan, he emanates purity. Where Goku is an idiot and Gohan is a ditz, high school Goten (based on one chapter) appears much more put together; it's subversive on its face but makes sense considering the character's life history. We'll see if he exhibits the Son selfishness moving forward.

Eh, I think Gohan already covers the "put together" Son family member role well enough, with enough interesting traits to keep him compelling for the most part, including the occasional acts of clownery. If Goten is being marketed as the deuteragonist alongside Trunks, being able to compliment his opposite is really the bare-minimum expectation. In any other scenario, I would agree that not every supporting character necessarily deserves any more focus than they're allotted when the story isn't really about them, but this arc represents a big opportunity to actually give the half-Saiyan tykes some real focus and development for the first time in forever. I don't mind Goten being Trunks' sidekick, but that doesn't mean he has to be a boring personality vacuum without his blue-hair-bro-from-another-mo.

I agree with dragonballhero that he really needs something more, and I hope he gets it; what that "more" is, I couldn't tell you, but I'd know it when I see it. On paper, Dr. Watson is just there to compliment Sherlock Holmes as the archetypal sidekick/foil and ask questions that the reader would ask, but if that's truly where his role begins and ends, he wouldn't be such an iconic character in his own right. At least Goten got a couple of okay-ish moments in this chapter, so there's hope.

[batistabus]

Eh, I think Gohan already covers the "put together" Son family member role well enough, with enough interesting traits to keep him compelling for the most part, including the occasional acts of clownery.

Gohan is really silly once he grows up. There's the obvious Great Saiyaman stuff, his antics with the Kaioshin, and then his blunders against Boo. He gets drunk and deflects a bullet into his pregnant wife in BoG, is totally useless in RoF, and he's completely clueless and clumsy throughout DBS:SH. The DBS anime plays him really straight throughout the ToP; that's partially why I think they get him so wrong. He's mostly serious with his minor roles in the manga ToP and GPP arcs, but there's also the DBS manga bonus chapter where he's obliviously insensitive to Future Trunks. There's not much to go on for the EoZ.

Not a ton to go on for Goten yet, but he hasn't done anything overtly idiotic yet.

[LoganForkHands73]

Eh, I think Gohan already covers the "put together" Son family member role well enough, with enough interesting traits to keep him compelling for the most part, including the occasional acts of clownery.

Gohan is really silly once he grows up. There's the obvious Great Saiyaman stuff, his antics with the Kaioshin, and then his blunders against Boo. He gets drunk and deflects a bullet into his pregnant wife in BoG, is totally useless in RoF, and he's completely clueless and clumsy throughout DBS:SH. The DBS anime plays him really straight throughout the ToP; that's partially why I think they get him so wrong. He's mostly serious with his minor roles in the manga ToP and GPP arcs, but there's also the DBS manga bonus chapter where he's obliviously insensitive to Future Trunks. There's not much to go on for the EoZ.

Not a ton to go on for Goten yet, but he hasn't done anything overtly idiotic yet.

Gohan acts silly or serious depending on the situation, he's a dynamic character. For the most part, he's defined by being the more socially-adjusted foil for Goku. You're selectively glossing over that many of those scenes are prefaced or followed by moments where Gohan shows off his more serious side.

I agree that the anime maybe played into his po-faced seriousness too often, resulting in him being less than memorable even when he has stuff to do. Though I do think it was neat that he was one of the only U7 warriors who truly understood the stakes and what he had to lose.

I don't think Goten, or any character, necessarily has to be an idiot to be interesting, but it's fine for him to be the butt of the joke sometimes (which applies to some of Gohan's comedic moments as well).

[batistabus]

Gohan acts silly or serious depending on the situation, he's a dynamic character. For the most part, he's defined by being the more socially-adjusted foil for Goku. You're selectively glossing over that many of those scenes are prefaced or followed by moments where Gohan shows off his more serious side.

I'm not saying Gohan isn't capable of being serious when the moment demands it. I'm just saying that Gohan produces many face-palm-inducing stupidity moments. Where Goku's stupidity is obvious for everyone, fans don't immediately think that way of Gohan (I'm making the case that they should). We don't have much to go on for Goten, so his conversation may be premature, but so far - and especially compared to Trunks, he hasn't done anything idiotic. If he never makes a fool of himself, that would make him distinct from his father and brother. If he does, that's fine by me, too.

[TKA]

Also, the inspiration for Black Freeza is fucking perfect.

Indeed. Frieza is based on the people who crashed the Japanese economy. Perfect to make his new form based on a credit card for the exorbitantly wealthy.

Now if they wanna be topical, what they should do next is bring back the real Cell, make him a Super Saiyan God AND Golden. Maybe call him Cell Virulent Delta. Have him be the first post-EoZ villain. He shows up 19 years after the original Cell died. CVD-19, they'll call the arc.

*finger guns*

[dragonballhero]

I rewatched the Toyotaro video yesterday, and it STILL worries me a great deal that Goten wasn't mentioned in any important capacity, at least compared to Trunks. Like, is the guy really that much of an afterthought to the DB staff?

[TKA]

I rewatched the Toyotaro video yesterday, and it STILL worries me a great deal that Goten wasn't mentioned in any important capacity, at least compared to Trunks. Like, is the guy really that much of an afterthought to the DB staff?

Even if he is an afterthought, this is the most amount of characterization Goten has gotten in the 25 years he has existed as a character since the manga ended.

[batistabus]

Since some of us care about who came up with what...

Freeza at the end of Granolah: Planned from the beginning ("one of the first things that was decided"), not said who's idea it was. "The editorial department didn't talk about it"...I'm not sure what that implies.

Black Freeza: Toyotaro and Uchida decided on the color together. Seems to imply Toyotaro designed it.

Super Hero Arc:
Tori, Toyo, and the editorial staff - like with the movie - decided things should be scaled back a bit. Goten was made a super hero to tie in with Trunks.

Toyotaro had wanted to do a spin-off with Trunks for a while and suggested it when there was a chance to do a non-Goku/Vegeta story. Like the Granolah arc, Toyotaro submitted several proposals about the specifics of the story. Toyotaro added in rom-com elements. Toyotaro thought the locker scene was necessary. Toyo wanted a chance to draw Hedo and include him in the story and especially likes Gohan Beast/Orange Piccolo (and Cell Max is cool, too). Toyo designed the classmates based on American high school students in line with Erasa/Sharpena etc.

Based on Toriyama's suggestion that Trunks should be a super hero, it was decided that the arc would be about super heroes. Toriyama came up with a motivation for Trunks to become a super hero. Toriyama revealed tidbits about Trunks and Goten's personalities. Tori said Trunks is "scatter brained" with a "strong sense of justice" and that "Trunks won't let even the slightest bad deed go unpunished" - based on this, Toyotaro came up with the biking to school scene. Toriyama "came up with" the scene with Dr. Brief and Bulma's mom. Toriyama wanted the Alphas to be funny-looking, not too realistic, and not too scary, but Toyotaro designed them (with Halloween in mind).

[dragonballhero]

I rewatched the Toyotaro video yesterday, and it STILL worries me a great deal that Goten wasn't mentioned in any important capacity, at least compared to Trunks. Like, is the guy really that much of an afterthought to the DB staff?

Even if he is an afterthought, this is the most amount of characterization Goten has gotten in the 25 years he has existed as a character since the manga ended.

Being a Goten fan, that's... pretty depressing to think about.

Since some of us care about who came up with what...

Freeza at the end of Granolah: Planned from the beginning ("one of the first things that was decided"), not said who's idea it was. "The editorial department didn't talk about it"...I'm not sure what that implies.

Black Freeza: Toyotaro and Uchida decided on the color together. Seems to imply Toyotaro designed it.

Super Hero Arc:
Tori, Toyo, and the editorial staff - like with the movie - decided things should be scaled back a bit. Goten was made a super hero to tie in with Trunks.

Toyotaro had wanted to do a spin-off with Trunks for a while and suggested it when there was a chance to do a non-Goku/Vegeta story. Like the Granolah arc, Toyotaro submitted several proposals about the specifics of the story. Toyotaro added in rom-com elements. Toyotaro thought the locker scene was necessary. Toyo wanted a chance to draw Hedo and include him in the story and especially likes Gohan Beast/Orange Piccolo (and Cell Max is cool, too). Toyo designed the classmates based on American high school students in line with Erasa/Sharpena etc.

Based on Toriyama's suggestion that Trunks should be a super hero, it was decided that the arc would be about super heroes. Toriyama came up with a motivation for Trunks to become a super hero. Toriyama revealed tidbits about Trunks and Goten's personalities. Tori said Trunks is "scatter brained" with a "strong sense of justice" and that "Trunks won't let even the slightest bad deed go unpunished" - based on this, Toyotaro came up with the biking to school scene. Toriyama "came up with" the scene with Dr. Brief and Bulma's mom. Toriyama wanted the Alphas to be funny-looking, not too realistic, and not too scary, but Toyotaro designed them (with Halloween in mind).

Okay, not going to lie. The 'Tori, Toyo, and editorial staff' idea right there is what truly worries me over the idea that Goten is likely going to be (for the most part) shafted. I mean, Toyotaro (and Toriyama, to some extent) seem pretty set over the idea that Goten being involved in this mini-arc was more of a 'package deal' for him and less them wanting to really try something new with him.

All in all, it really does feel like Trunks is meant to be THE main focus here, to Goten's expense. I mean, after 20+ years, it sort of amazes me how they can't figure out what to do with him individually.

[batistabus]

Okay, not going to lie. The 'Tori, Toyo, and editorial staff' idea right there is what truly worries me over the idea that Goten is likely going to be (for the most part) shafted. I mean, Toyotaro (and Toriyama, to some extent) seem pretty set over the idea that Goten being involved in this mini-arc was more of a 'package deal' for him and less them wanting to really try something new with him.

All in all, it really does feel like Trunks is meant to be THE main focus here, to Goten's expense. I mean, after 20+ years, it sort of amazes me how they can't figure out what to do with him individually.

To be fair, Goten's role isn't necessarily said to be a committee decision. Rather, nobody in particular is credited with the idea. But yes - Goten's involvement seems to be a consequence of Trunks being the main character. Still, they say that Toriyama gave details about Goten's personality, so he's not a total afterthought. In my opinion, even though Trunks was the clear focus of chapter 88, Goten still shined.

Also, in case it wasn't obvious, I don't know Japanese. I just collected information from the video. There could be subtle details that are missing from the official website's translation.

[dragonballhero]

Okay, not going to lie. The 'Tori, Toyo, and editorial staff' idea right there is what truly worries me over the idea that Goten is likely going to be (for the most part) shafted. I mean, Toyotaro (and Toriyama, to some extent) seem pretty set over the idea that Goten being involved in this mini-arc was more of a 'package deal' for him and less them wanting to really try something new with him.

All in all, it really does feel like Trunks is meant to be THE main focus here, to Goten's expense. I mean, after 20+ years, it sort of amazes me how they can't figure out what to do with him individually.

To be fair, Goten's role isn't necessarily said to be a committee decision. Rather, nobody in particular is credited with the idea. But yes - Goten's involvement seems to be a consequence of Trunks being the main character. Still, they say that Toriyama gave details about Goten's personality, so he's not a total afterthought. In my opinion, even though Trunks was the clear focus of chapter 88, Goten still shined.

Also, in case it wasn't obvious, I don't know Japanese. I just collected information from the video. There could be subtle details that are missing from the official website's translation.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not totally all 'gloom-and-doom' in regards to Goten. I do have some (small) hope that he'll be treated well this go-around. As I've said though, it's a small hope all the same. The fact that he seems to have only gotten this role because Trunks was doing it sort of adds to the sidekick issue he's got going on. I'm not saying he needs to be Gohan or even Goku or anything, but I've seen folks who wonder what Goten's whole deal is, to which I couldn't describe for them if I tried.

[MCDaveG]

Trunks was always more popular character and Toriyama already stated in one interview, that his characters come in pairs.
So Goten was made up for Buu arc because Kid Trunks needed some partner.

But I share the sentiment, I would love to get more from Goten, at least to get some spotlights like he had in GT, where I felt he is fully realized character in the small bits there was.

Overall I am happy, this might be my second favorite arc after the Battle Of Gods in Super.
Plus points for time and characters progression and different concept than the TOEI movie like Granolah arc.
Already enjoyed the first chapter more than the whole Granolah arc. Let's see how it goes.

[Dragmobot12]

Remember that fake leak that said Toriyama would be working on a story alongside Yoshitaka Nagayama? Honestly, I would be okay with that, and I think it's a great idea because right now it seems like this franchise has no plans, but DBS still has the Multiverse and the World of Gods to explore, so I would assume, that two big brains are necessary for this kind of concept, and honestly, I wouldn't consider Toyotaro one of them because he's not a very good writer, he's certainly a talented artist and has a great style, but after the Moro arc, I'm convinced that this man can't cook.

Now, I don't know much about Nagayama, but I've heard a lot of good things from the SDBH manga, if you take away the fanservice part, his stories seem pretty decent, and don't rely mostly on nostalgia and recycling other memorable classic DBZ moments.
But anyway, the idea is for Toriyama to co-write something with another author that could lead to a larger story, one that actually delivers something exciting, not just the appearance of a bad guy who does bad things and then dies without leaving any scars on our heroes.

I also heard that he was working with his son, Sasuke, on the Super Hero script, so maybe they'll work in the next manga arc together.

[Alkiser]

Remember that fake leak that said Toriyama would be working on a story alongside Yoshitaka Nagayama? Honestly, I would be okay with that, and I think it's a great idea because right now it seems like this franchise has no plans, but DBS still has the Multiverse and the World of Gods to explore, so I would assume, that two big brains are necessary for this kind of concept, and honestly, I wouldn't consider Toyotaro one of them because he's not a very good writer, he's certainly a talented artist and has a great style, but after the Moro arc, I'm convinced that this man can't cook.

Now, I don't know much about Nagayama, but I've heard a lot of good things from the SDBH manga, if you take away the fanservice part, his stories seem pretty decent, and don't rely mostly on nostalgia and recycling other memorable classic DBZ moments.
But anyway, the idea is for Toriyama to co-write something with another author that could lead to a larger story, one that actually delivers something exciting, not just the appearance of a bad guy who does bad things and then dies without leaving any scars on our heroes.

I also heard that he was working with his son, Sasuke, on the Super Hero script, so maybe they'll work in the next manga arc together.

The false leak assumed that it would be Toyotaro who would work with Nagayama, already without Toriyama's help. Nagayama's style is awful and terribly uneven, and not his ideas are not fresh because everything ends and begins with the demon realm and the same villains with modified design.

[IntangibleFancy]

Isn't the DBS manga supposed to have this cool and scary new arc that the SDBH author is going to assist Toyotaro with?

[FortuneSSJ]

Isn't the DBS manga supposed to have this cool and scary new arc that the SDBH author is going to assist Toyotaro with?

No, that was just a rumor. So far there's nothing confirmed for DBS manga beyond the current arc.