How strong was Tien post King Kai?

[Xyex]

Except what you said was that a power of 1,330 "could oneshot a Saibamen with complete ease. Wouldn't even see it coming." 1,330 against 1,200 is a 1.108 difference. All of the examples you give have greater gaps than that (if Vegeta was at 24,000 and Dodoria at 20,000, then that's a difference of 1.2, not 1.1 like you said), yet none of the are settled so easily. Goku is able to dodge Vegeta's ki attacks with Kaio-ken x2, albeit with difficulty. Vegeta needed two attacks to kill Kui. He does take out Dodoria with one blast, but it's a blast from behind that Dodoria still has enough time to turn around and see, and this is after Vegeta tortured him by squeezing his arms together.

My mistake on the Vegeta/Dodoria ratio. But Vegeta did take Kui out with just the one attack, blew him to bits. As for Dodoria he was completely overwhelmed and scared shitless. Hell, Freeza even comments earlier, when Dodoria and Zarbon express concern over Vegeta's power, that together the two of them can still take him. Which indicates that Vegeta's too powerful for Dodoria to handle solo.

And in the case of a 1,320 wiping out a Saibamen without it seeing it coming, also consider we're talking about a Saibamen. Not Goku or Vegeta or some other actual fighter. They're just mindless killing machines when you get right down to it, I don't see them being nearly as aware of a high powered high speed energy attack as one of the fighters would be.

I reject that mostly because it's such a completely insane power jump. I mean, Goku suddenly raises his power thirty-three times over. The only boosts that go anywhere near that kind of growth are the Fusions (incl. Namekian) or actual transformations.

The issue, really, comes from Toriyama not bothering to follow his own levels or put any real consideration into the gains of power he was representing. He just went "Alright, and now Goku shows up and he and Freeza are even." and that was it.

And they also don't give a precedent for pre-SSJ crazy zenkai boosts. Vegeta was near SSJ himself on Namek. Then he trains in 400G while abusing the hell out of zenkai. If his near-ascendancy was allowing increases in excess of 30x per recovery... then he really shouldn't have had a problem with #18.

True. But this is an issue of the series continuing beyond it's intended ending. Vegeta wasn't supposed to become a Super Saiya-jin. Goku was to be THE legendary SSJ and so he was the only one who got the gains.

Piccolo actually explains this, though. He says that the power #20 took from him was "nothing," because when they fight, they amplify their energy in bursts. He had only stolen Piccolo's resting power.

And even disregarding Piccolo's statement the amount of energy 20 would have gotten from Yamcha or Krillin would have been neglibable. And one simple ki blast from Vegeta's not going to pack a whole lot of power either.

[Pieter]

And then there's the idea that the Zenkais are tied to Super Saiya-jin and that they grow larger and larger as a Saiya-jin approaches transforming. So basicly with Goku his jump wasn't from the damage he'd incurred but from his SSJ powers waking up and just needing that last trigger to push him over. Fan theory, sure, but it's a good one.

I reject that mostly because it's such a completely insane power jump. I mean, Goku suddenly raises his power thirty-three times over. The only boosts that go anywhere near that kind of growth are the Fusions (incl. Namekian) or actual transformations.

thirty three? 180,000 / 8,000 = 22,5 times.

There's some ways to explain the huge power jump. Goku also gained many Zenkai's training in space (if that wasn't filler). Zenkais multiply base strength by a few times. If that happens a couple of times after each other you can get many times stronger as when you began. The risk was of course that he would die.

Here's some multiplying, taking a zenkai as a double increase of power:

8,000x2 = 16000 (after fighting vegeta)
16000x2 = 32000 (in space)
32000x2 = 64000 (in space)
64000x2 = 120000 (in space)

Taking that a zenkai can double ones power (I dont know, but after the ginyu swap goku increased almost double I believe) and that Goku had 3 zenkai's in space (in the anime Goku often had to grab a senzu bean while nearly dead) it makes sense, because even without adding the amount of strength he gained by training at 100g hed be as strong as Ginyu and close to his 180000 against Ginyu.

Another explanation might be that he was getting closer to becoming a SSJ. As others keep commenting about his strength being unreal and Vegeta keep commenting about him already being a SSJ. Goku also noted once that "something changed from within" during his space training (before he read krillins mind). This might explain why his base power increased so much even though he did not know how to transform yet.

[Tyro]

I reject that mostly because it's such a completely insane power jump. I mean, Goku suddenly raises his power thirty-three times over. The only boosts that go anywhere near that kind of growth are the Fusions (incl. Namekian) or actual transformations.

thirty three? 180,000 / 8,000 = 22,5 times.

He meant the auto-evolving mechanism Goku received before fighting Freeza. 3,000,000 / 90,000 = 33.33333333x.

Besides, Goku's battle strength was 90,000 before said auto-evolving mechanism; 180,000 was with the Kaio-ken.

[Pieter]

I reject that mostly because it's such a completely insane power jump. I mean, Goku suddenly raises his power thirty-three times over. The only boosts that go anywhere near that kind of growth are the Fusions (incl. Namekian) or actual transformations.

thirty three? 180,000 / 8,000 = 22,5 times.

He meant the auto-evolving mechanism Goku received before fighting Freeza. 3,000,000 / 90,000 = 33.33333333x.

Besides, Goku's battle strength was 90,000 before said auto-evolving mechanism; 180,000 was with the Kaio-ken.

Oh yea you're right. But otherse also noted that Goku's power increase was tremendous onwards to Namek.

[Pain]

thirty three? 180,000 / 8,000 = 22,5 times.

He meant the auto-evolving mechanism Goku received before fighting Freeza. 3,000,000 / 90,000 = 33.33333333x.

Besides, Goku's battle strength was 90,000 before said auto-evolving mechanism; 180,000 was with the Kaio-ken.

Oh yea you're right. But otherse also noted that Goku's power increase was tremendous onwards to Namek.

All of that math...makes my head hurt. Could you guys say that stuff in english, please?

[Rocketman]

All of that math...makes my head hurt. Could you guys say that stuff in english, please?

Sure.

"3,000,000-Goku is bullshit."

[Pain]

All of that math...makes my head hurt. Could you guys say that stuff in english, please?

Sure.

"3,000,000-Goku is bullshit."

Oh, of course. I should have known that.

[Onikage725]

Oh yea you're right. But otherse also noted that Goku's power increase was tremendous onwards to Namek.

8,000- 90,000. x11.25 increase. That's with the powerup from healing from the massive ass-whupping he took fighting Vegeta. Abuse of Kaio-ken, every bone crushed by Oozaru, etc. Then we follow up with gravity training that goes up to 100x and includes plenty of self abuse. He gained much just from ltraining in gravity and more from eating senzu to heal everu time he hit his limits while training (thus boosting himself further do to the whole "Saiyans get to cheat like DC's Doomsday" thing).

Before that we also get an x18.x increase in power. For this, we possibly gain another of these so-called "zenkai" boosts from dying and being restored. We also have the long trek to Kaio's, the mastery of Kaio's gravity, and months of training under a god. I'd imagine just learning Kaio-ken to a factor of 4 caused Goku physical damage that would have caused him to grow in power after recovery.

Both of these increases are drastic.

Both of these increases have drastic reasons behind them.

Both of them utterly pale behind the suggested Daizenshuu increase for Goku on Namek against Freeza.

And yet there is absolutely no reason behind it.

All this training needed for earlier increases is also the style for later. He's stronger when he returns to earth, but he trained constantly in space first. Aside from the heart virus, he's stronger when the androids attack due to years of preparation. He's vastly stronger during the Cell games due to RoSaT training and mastery of SSJ. He's ridiculously powerful in the Buu Saga thanks to years of training in the afterlife.

But on Namek? Some broken ribs and a stint in the healing tank.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

It's just a manga, though. There's no reason to assume that Toriyama thought too deeply about this stuff. And we don't even know how the power ups work. Perhaps just being hit by someone in the 400,000-500,000 caused his power to jump to 3,000,000.

[Pain]

It's just a manga, though. There's no reason to assume that Toriyama thought too deeply about this stuff. And we don't even know how the power ups work. Perhaps just being hit by someone in the 400,000-500,000 caused his power to jump to 3,000,000.

Well has anyone thought that the "zenkai" things themselves double? Maybe the power-up doubles the amount of power that it gives each time that it is used. I just thought of that and it may be a very possible answer.

[Xyex]

Well has anyone thought that the "zenkai" things themselves double? Maybe the power-up doubles the amount of power that it gives each time that it is used. I just thought of that and it may be a very possible answer.

That doesn't really work either. It could stand for Vegeta, up to his healing from the Ginyu Force battle. 18 > 24 is + 6 and then his in the 30s against Recoome (24 + 12 = 36) but then he jumps into the hundreds of thousands.

And Goku's increases during his trip to Namek had to have been fairly small and there's no way he got one of 16.6~x before landing there as that would put his starting power below what it was on Earth.

[Kid Trunks]

But if we know that Vegeta goes from 36,000 to approx 500,000, then it shouldn't be too hard to believe that Goku went from 90,000 to approx 2,000,000. Right?

[Onikage725]

But if we know that Vegeta goes from 36,000 to approx 500,000, then it shouldn't be too hard to believe that Goku went from 90,000 to approx 2,000,000. Right?

It's 90,000 to 3 million for Goku.

And Vegeta, we don't know how strong he was. He wasn't equal to Freeza, regardless of his level of confidence. He managed to block one attack. Afterwords, he was sucking wind and Freeza was no worse for wear. Vegeta was certainly in the hundreds of thousands, but not necessarily 500k+.

Am I the only one who has a problem with the concept of Freeza powering up from 3 million to 60 million with no fanfare? That was pretty much the shortest charge ever. All of his previous power ups (of a lesser nature) were heavily noticeable. His jump from 60 to 120 million took for-freaking-ever and warped his body. But 3 to 60 took seconds? With minimal reaction from other characters over his instant increase of 20x?

The strongest guy anyone had met before Freeza was Ginyu. Freeza supposedly jumps (effortlessly) to about 500x stronger than Ginyu, I really think people would have fallen to their knees in abject terror (similar to Piccolo when Raditz nearly killed him).

[Kid Trunks]

But if we know that Vegeta goes from 36,000 to approx 500,000, then it shouldn't be too hard to believe that Goku went from 90,000 to approx 2,000,000. Right?

It's 90,000 to 3 million for Goku.

And Vegeta, we don't know how strong he was. He wasn't equal to Freeza, regardless of his level of confidence. He managed to block one attack. Afterwords, he was sucking wind and Freeza was no worse for wear. Vegeta was certainly in the hundreds of thousands, but not necessarily 500k+.

I believe he was about 2 million.

And even if Vegeta only went from 36,000 to 300,000, the point is still the same. Big power jumps happen.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I agree about the power increases being very possible. Even if Goku didn't seem that bad, he could't move, and Vegeta, after being thrashed by Recoome, had enough power to still stand a call Gohan a dummy. Vegeta went from about 32,000 to 500,000 with the senzu bean. If he could do it, Goku could get twice the increase of that.

[SSj_Rambo]

I agree about the power increases being very possible. Even if Goku didn't seem that bad, he could't move, and Vegeta, after being thrashed by Recoome, had enough power to still stand a call Gohan a dummy. Vegeta went from about 32,000 to 500,000 with the senzu bean. If he could do it, Goku could get twice the increase of that.

How do you know that Goku is capable of double what Vegeta could do?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Goku going from 90,000-3,000,000 is more then Vegeta's increase, which was like a 5x increase, and Goku's was like 33x. That's way more then Vegeta.

[SSj_Rambo]

Goku going from 90,000-3,000,000 is more then Vegeta's increase, which was like a 5x increase, and Goku's was like 33x. That's way more then Vegeta.

I get it, I didn't realize that you were including Goku's many zenkai, I though you were comparing one of Vegeta's zenkai and saying Goku could double that with one of his. I understand you now, my bad.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

It's cool. I probably didn't phrase it as good as I should've

[Onikage725]

But if we know that Vegeta goes from 36,000 to approx 500,000, then it shouldn't be too hard to believe that Goku went from 90,000 to approx 2,000,000. Right?

It's 90,000 to 3 million for Goku.

And Vegeta, we don't know how strong he was. He wasn't equal to Freeza, regardless of his level of confidence. He managed to block one attack. Afterwords, he was sucking wind and Freeza was no worse for wear. Vegeta was certainly in the hundreds of thousands, but not necessarily 500k+.

I believe he was about 2 million.

And even if Vegeta only went from 36,000 to 300,000, the point is still the same. Big power jumps happen.

The Daizenshu lists 3 million, which is the number I'm arguing against. I can't really debate your personal belief of 2 million. You're welcome to that figure, but I can't really comment on it.

Vegeta, assuming 36,000 to 300,000, gains an 8.3x increase. 13.8 if I play devil's advocate and assume 500,000 for Vegeta.
Then 300,000 to, say, 2 million after his next healing, would be about 6.6x. 4x if we allow the earlier level being 500,000.

Once again I'll say- Goku= 33.3x increase. NOT the same kind of thing. It would be more comparable to look at Goku's jump from his Earth power to Namek in comparison to Vegeta. And THAT was incremental. He would have been stronger before leaving, thanks to senzu. And he repeatedly healed every time he hit his limits. He went up 11.3x from his base when he fought Vegeta, and that was due to multiple recovery boosts as well as gravity training.

It's bull and I am just as comfortable calling it such as some people are comfortable saying suggestions of Toriyama flubbing rules on Kaio-ken is bull. One way or another, some bullshit went down and rules went out the window. Way too much effort goes into trying to prove which inconsistency is the most believable.