Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 89 - Official Discussion Thread

[omaro34]

Never thought I’d see the day that basketball was being played in the Dragonball universe lmao

[ClutchBangstrip]

Just got through watching some OGDB and these slice of life instances in Super really feel like classic Dragon Ball stuff. It's so goofy and I notice Super has been making a greater effort to include more of it's comedic roots, even since the BoG.

A good portion of this material totally requires you to turn your brain off. Just like in OGDB. Goten picking up the truck with one hand just to grab a baseball is the lowkey highlight for me.

[TKA]

Haven't read the chapter yet, but I saw this:



Damn Toyotaro getting woke by showing different cultures in a respectful manner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How dare he! How dare he represent the wide berth of people who read dragonball instead of catering just to one type!

In all seriousness, I love this shit. This arc getting away from the aliens and stuff and just having humans has necessitated more nonstandard designs. Between the last chapter having 2 modern-looking black people and this chapter having this teacher, I'd say these are more unique designs than anything in the Moro or Granolah arcs simply because they look like characters never before seen in DB.

This is a step in the right direction.

[Luso Saiyan]

How dare he represent the wide berth of people who read dragonball instead of catering just to one type!

I honestly don't follow. Who is that representing exactly but its own character? Since when are Dragon Ball readers begging for representation, or are in anyway excluded from enjoying Dragon Ball (an universally appealing franchise for decades)? I'll never understand this narcissistic mentality so in vogue nowadays.

Anyway, so far this arc is proving more entertaining than I expected. I don't care much for the core plot, but I'm liking the care-free tone that surrounds it.

[JulieYBM]

How dare he represent the wide berth of people who read dragonball instead of catering just to one type!

I honestly don't follow. Who is that representing exactly but its own character? Since when are Dragon Ball readers begging for representation, or are in anyway excluded from enjoying Dragon Ball (an universally appealing franchise for decades)? I'll never understand this narcissistic mentality so in vogue nowadays.

Anyway, so far this arc is proving more entertaining than I expected. I don't care much for the core plot, but I'm liking the care-free tone that surrounds it.

Historically speaking, plenty of people who partake in reading/viewing works of art or engaging in fandom love to see themselves represented, especially people who are historically marginalized in society. Furthermore, historically-speaking, creators have a history of including marginalized people in their art in both positive and negative lights. Plenty of research articles and papers exist on the subject.

Speaking from my experience as someone who grew up not seeing herself properly represented in media—and in fact saw people like myself only ever in victim or victimizer roles—it's a really fucked up way to grow up, especially when I would then see those negative portrayals affect how people like me were treated in real life. Everyone is always going to wind up in media somehow, the role that they play in said media is important.

[eledoremassis02]

This did feel more like Dragon Ball again (which Super Hero does too *sans cell*). I'm glad because Battle of Gods felt a lot like Dragon Ball and that seemed to have been the biggest aspect people didn't like and that gave us Revival of F and the constant loop Super has been in ever since, so I am glad.

[Luso Saiyan]

Historically speaking, plenty of people who partake in reading/viewing works of art or engaging in fandom love to see themselves represented, especially people who are historically marginalized in society. Furthermore, historically-speaking, creators have a history of including marginalized people in their art in both positive and negative lights. Plenty of research articles and papers exist on the subject.

Speaking from my experience as someone who grew up not seeing herself properly represented in media—and in fact saw people like myself only ever in victim or victimizer roles—it's a really fucked up way to grow up, especially when I would then see those negative portrayals affect how people like me were treated in real life. Everyone is always going to wind up in media somehow, the role that they play in said media is important.

It's that "love to see themselves represented" that I call narcissism. That's not the purpose of storytelling, to satisfy people's narcissism. And nobody is represented by someone who looks like them. That's a very shallow view of a person too, to assume that someone is defined (and thus represented) by someone who shares their physiognomy or other physical traits. If I looked like you, would I represent you? Would you represent me? Of course not.

Creators do have an history of portraying people in a good and negative light, wether they are marginalized (where?) or not. Because that's what stories are all about. People, with their own virtues, faults and individual charateristics that we (the readers) can understand, relate to, approve and criticize depending on how they act (not how they look) in their own story. And it's the how the characters act and what they deal with that can be relatable. That's what makes some stories like Dragon Ball universal and others not so. Because they deal with universal themes, themes that we can understand no matter where we are from.

This arc is a great example of this, since all the high-school antics are relatable in some form. Trunks showing off to the person he's in love with is relatable. Trunks being jealous of the android that got Mai's attention is relatable. Etc... The reader is not at a loss about what's going on, because it's something everyone understands. Do I look like Trunks? No. Does Trunks family look like mine? No. I'm certainly not rich like them either. But Trunks, by what he goes through and how he acts, is relatable all the same, no matter how we look like and where we're from.

[capsulecorp]

Great chapter. These last two chapters really do feel like "real" Dragon Ball, in a way that we haven't seen in awhile. Toyo is consistently good at starting his stories though, so lets hope he sticks the landing!

[batistabus]

I'm having so much fun with this. Hedo is especially great here.

[LightBing]

Enjoyable chapter, liked it much more than the first.
It had this "enemy of the week" type show feel.

Nice to see Bra, hopefully she's just not another Bulma. Would be nice to see her pick up fighting as well.

[Mr Baggins]

Hedo is so invested in one-upping these kids that he'd rather his inventions look cool than just get his disk back. These interactions are so damn good.

Goten and Trunks also continue to bounce off of each other so well, and so effortlessly, that it might turn out to be a missed opportunity if the former isn't more present throughout the arc. They have never been more interesting in all of the franchise, Toriyama's manga included. All this romcom stuff between Trunks and Mai is a lot funnier with Goten there playing the straight man, but that doesn't really happen this month until the end. Arc will probably read better if they're a duo than if they're frequently apart.

Another fun chapter all around. I'm so glad the manga feels like Dragon Ball again; even its rapid pacing and panel progression is so much more reminiscent of the pre-Moro arcs as well as the original series, which is exactly where it should be. I approve.

[PurestEvil]

Historically speaking, plenty of people who partake in reading/viewing works of art or engaging in fandom love to see themselves represented, especially people who are historically marginalized in society. Furthermore, historically-speaking, creators have a history of including marginalized people in their art in both positive and negative lights. Plenty of research articles and papers exist on the subject.

Speaking from my experience as someone who grew up not seeing herself properly represented in media—and in fact saw people like myself only ever in victim or victimizer roles—it's a really fucked up way to grow up, especially when I would then see those negative portrayals affect how people like me were treated in real life. Everyone is always going to wind up in media somehow, the role that they play in said media is important.

It's that "love to see themselves represented" that I call narcissism. That's not the purpose of storytelling, to satisfy people's narcissism. And nobody is represented by someone who looks like them. That's a very shallow view of a person too, to assume that someone is defined (and thus represented) by someone who shares their physiognomy or other physical traits. If I looked like you, would I represent you? Would you represent me? Of course not.

A person of a certain "marginalized" identity wanting to see fictional characters of a "marginalized" identity be represented in a more positive and uplifting manner is not at all a matter of narcissism, but rather a matter of egalitarianism. Saying it's "narcissism" completely ignores the history of demeaning and disgraceful attitudes towards marginalized people conveyed by creative media in the past century. Mass media has an influence on society, and such racist, homophobic, and sexist depictions reinforce the bigoted sensibilities of the past. That is why it is important to be mindful about how you portray marginalized groups in our more socially tolerant society, especially when considering the context and nature of the media being produced.

Also, demanding good representation does not indicate a "shallow" view of characters whatsoever. On the contrary, making a well-written character is a key aspect of good representation. Otherwise, it could wind up being an example of "tokenism". As an example, the non-Japanese and non-white background characters in Trunks' school act just like all the other students and adults and are simply seen as a normal part of the school system. It is a subtle form of good representation, as it implies racial equality of that community. Sometimes, that's all you really "need".

[JulieYBM]

Historically speaking, plenty of people who partake in reading/viewing works of art or engaging in fandom love to see themselves represented, especially people who are historically marginalized in society. Furthermore, historically-speaking, creators have a history of including marginalized people in their art in both positive and negative lights. Plenty of research articles and papers exist on the subject.

Speaking from my experience as someone who grew up not seeing herself properly represented in media—and in fact saw people like myself only ever in victim or victimizer roles—it's a really fucked up way to grow up, especially when I would then see those negative portrayals affect how people like me were treated in real life. Everyone is always going to wind up in media somehow, the role that they play in said media is important.

It's that "love to see themselves represented" that I call narcissism. That's not the purpose of storytelling, to satisfy people's narcissism. And nobody is represented by someone who looks like them. That's a very shallow view of a person too, to assume that someone is defined (and thus represented) by someone who shares their physiognomy or other physical traits. If I looked like you, would I represent you? Would you represent me? Of course not.

Creators do have an history of portraying people in a good and negative light, wether they are marginalized (where?) or not. Because that's what stories are all about. People, with their own virtues, faults and individual charateristics that we (the readers) can understand, relate to, approve and criticize depending on how they act (not how they look) in their own story. And it's the how the characters act and what they deal with that can be relatable. That's what makes some stories like Dragon Ball universal and others not so. Because they deal with universal themes, themes that we can understand no matter where we are from.

This arc is a great example of this, since all the high-school antics are relatable in some form. Trunks showing off to the person he's in love with is relatable. Trunks being jealous of the android that got Mai's attention is relatable. Etc... The reader is not at a loss about what's going on, because it's something everyone understands. Do I look like Trunks? No. Does Trunks family look like mine? No. I'm certainly not rich like them either. But Trunks, by what he goes through and how he acts, is relatable all the same, no matter how we look like and where we're from.

PurestEvil made a good reply to this before I could get around to it but allow me to leave you with this: you calling me (generally) a 'narcissist' for wanting good rep in media--a platform used to damage the image of trans and bi people on a planet that generally treats said people inhumanely--is honestly a bit more insulting that just calling me a slur. Again, I'll direct you back to the post PurestEvil made since they nailed it.

Go Google some articles on media rep and actually learn what effect it can have on someone. Media isn't just about entertainment, it's about influencing thought and society, whether for profit, bad or good.

[Grimlock]

Six-year-old Bulma is fixing alien spaceships and two-year-old Bra is fixing computers. I guess Bra's kid(s) will be fixing machinery while in her womb.

Anyway, great to see my girl Bra a bit older! Just a tiny bit disappointing she has the same look as kid Bulma instead of being more original but it's alright, I'll gladly take it! Hopefully she appears a bit more before this ends. Now, give me Marron, Toyotaro.

[OLKv3]

Historically speaking, plenty of people who partake in reading/viewing works of art or engaging in fandom love to see themselves represented, especially people who are historically marginalized in society. Furthermore, historically-speaking, creators have a history of including marginalized people in their art in both positive and negative lights. Plenty of research articles and papers exist on the subject.

Speaking from my experience as someone who grew up not seeing herself properly represented in media—and in fact saw people like myself only ever in victim or victimizer roles—it's a really fucked up way to grow up, especially when I would then see those negative portrayals affect how people like me were treated in real life. Everyone is always going to wind up in media somehow, the role that they play in said media is important.

It's that "love to see themselves represented" that I call narcissism. That's not the purpose of storytelling, to satisfy people's narcissism. And nobody is represented by someone who looks like them. That's a very shallow view of a person too, to assume that someone is defined (and thus represented) by someone who shares their physiognomy or other physical traits. If I looked like you, would I represent you? Would you represent me? Of course not.

Creators do have an history of portraying people in a good and negative light, wether they are marginalized (where?) or not. Because that's what stories are all about. People, with their own virtues, faults and individual charateristics that we (the readers) can understand, relate to, approve and criticize depending on how they act (not how they look) in their own story. And it's the how the characters act and what they deal with that can be relatable. That's what makes some stories like Dragon Ball universal and others not so. Because they deal with universal themes, themes that we can understand no matter where we are from.

This arc is a great example of this, since all the high-school antics are relatable in some form. Trunks showing off to the person he's in love with is relatable. Trunks being jealous of the android that got Mai's attention is relatable. Etc... The reader is not at a loss about what's going on, because it's something everyone understands. Do I look like Trunks? No. Does Trunks family look like mine? No. I'm certainly not rich like them either. But Trunks, by what he goes through and how he acts, is relatable all the same, no matter how we look like and where we're from.

This is such an awful take. You're making an entire issue out of someone going "Hey, it's nice to see a diverse group of people in the world"

[TKA]

I’ll never understand this narcissistic mentality so in vogue nowadays.

I’m going to assume an abundance of good faith from you.

You will understand why your views on this are deeply flawed if you do even the most cursory bit of research into representation and the psychological, political and social consequences people endure as a result of a lack of it in media.

The writing on this is robust, but largely off topic for this board, and would require getting into uncomfortable territory. Instead of your preconceived guttural emotions, I strongly recommend you to actually look into it. DM me if you want some places I could send you to start looking. Some replies on this page are also very good.

[Alruneia]

Nice to see Bra, hopefully she's just not another Bulma. Would be nice to see her pick up fighting as well.

Honestly, I'm irrationally upset about this chapter because it kinda suggests exactly that, even if it's just part of a gag and I know it's just part of a gag. We really don't need Bulla to be Bulma, we already have Bulma for that purpose. At this point, Bulma's a character that won't ever be "phased out", much like Goku, so it's a total waste. Instead, please do literally anything else with her character. Sure, it'd be perfect if I got my warrior princess like in my fanfic, but it's not a requirement, I just want Toyotaro (or Toriyama or whoever) to not be so uncreative about it that she becomes a clone character

[Luso Saiyan]

I’ll never understand this narcissistic mentality so in vogue nowadays.

I’m going to assume an abundance of good faith from you.

You will understand why your views on this are deeply flawed if you do even the most cursory bit of research into representation and the psychological, political and social consequences people endure as a result of a lack of it in media.

No need. My views are not "deeply flawed". I'm not ignorant about what people mean with "representation", nor am I ignorant about what any person can endure from the direct and indirect actions from others, wether they have loud or small voices in society. That's completely beside the point.

I'm arguing against the very premise of that "deeply flawed" view, the original point you were making, which is that a character with a certain physiognomy or some other physical trait represents, or is meant to represent, all people who share it.

It doesn't. The characters represent the characters, nobody else. Wether it's teachers, students, goofballs or criminals, they are none of us, they don't represent any of us. It's not about us, people shouldn't make it about themselves or pretend that it is.

The writing on this is robust, but largely off topic for this board, and would require getting into uncomfortable territory. Instead of your preconceived guttural emotions, I strongly recommend you to actually look into it. DM me if you want some places I could send you to start looking. Some replies on this page are also very good.

I classify them as fallacious, but not really worth arguing further only to derail the thread even more.

You're right that any deeper discussion is indeed largely off-topic.

P.S: My comments were in good faith. I didn't assume any malice from you either. Just a point of contention.

[PurestEvil]

I'm arguing against the very premise of that "deeply flawed" view, the original point you were making, which is that a character with a certain physiognomy or some other physical trait represents, or is meant to represent, all people who share it.

It doesn't. The characters represent the characters, nobody else. Wether it's teachers, students, goofballs or criminals, they are none of us, they don't represent any of us. It's not about us, people shouldn't make it about themselves or pretend that it is.

You got it backwards. The point of good representation is actually antithetical to what you said in that first line: to familiarize audiences of marginalized groups by exposing them to fictional members of them. Such a character represents a hypothetical member of such group, not literally all of them at once. Using the recent chapter as an example to keep this within context: a black reader of DBS may be pleased with how that one black girl in Trunks' class is portrayed, not because the reader themself feels represented, but simply because they recognize she is written well enough to leave a good impression on the wider audience (especially considering DB's rocky history with black characters).

The writing on this is robust, but largely off topic for this board, and would require getting into uncomfortable territory. Instead of your preconceived guttural emotions, I strongly recommend you to actually look into it. DM me if you want some places I could send you to start looking. Some replies on this page are also very good.

I classify them as fallacious, but not really worth arguing further only to derail the thread even more.

You're right that any deeper discussion is indeed largely off-topic.

Pretty rich of you to classify what was predominantly a summary of highly studied, factual information as fallacious. Like what TKA said, you ought to inform yourself on the topic.

[TKA]

Read the chapter.

Honestly, pretty much the same thoughts as last month. This is all super fun, super charming and super refreshing.

Trunks getting bested by his Future version is also a very funny twist.

Also still digging Goten's characterization as simultaneously an airhead and Trunks' straightman. He has a Goku trait while being more sensible, which is neat.

Likewise, Bra in these 2 pages has done more to make me like her than all of her appearances in GT. Instead of being a teen girl stereotype, as written by old guys in their 40s, she's instead what we got here. That's radder.

All in all, another good chapter.