Why doesn't the series appeal as an adventure series?

[ABED]

1. I doubt the replacement score had any substantial impact on the ratings. As an American boy back then, do you think what appealed to us was cheap basement produced synth? And if the terrible quality voice acting wasn't a put off for US audiences, why would the more dated animation? And I think you're overselling how much more dated DB looked in comparison to DBZ.

Oh please. Yes, as an American boy who grew up in that era, the Faulconer score was seen as badass. Why do you think our generation used it, and saw it, all the time in AMVs, Newgrounds flash movies, or fandubs? Why do you think people, to this day, are editing Kai scenes to the Faulconer score?

Literally no kid, in 2001 (at least not a kid older than 14), was saying "ugh, these baka gaijins will never know the true glory of Kikuchi-san". Funimation wasn't stupid. They market-tested that shit, and they knew what they were doing and what their goals were. Same goes for GT.

2. The stakes aren't the galaxy or universe, but the world, and the big stakes don't matter anyway. Does anyone really care? Generally, no because we know the good guys will save the day. What we care about are the emotional and personal stakes.

YOU care about that, because you're not a child and appreciate more mature storytelling. As a child, it's all about "the fate of the planet".

3. Kids don't care about the end goal. They aren't watching the shows they like to get to the end. They are watching because it's like meeting up with their friends.

No, I think I watched Samurai Jack because I really did want to see his latest effort to go back to the past. If we didn't care about the end goal, we wouldn't have been so upset about the show getting cancelled after 4 seasons.

People are often upset when there isn't closure or when things end abruptly. It isn't about the endgoal. Kids don't think that way.

As a child, it wasn't about the fate of the planet for me. It was about cool fun action. I wanted the heroes to save the day, but it didn't have to be for the fate of the world.

I think you believe the internet is a better barometer of public opinion than it truly is. If this were true, Avatar 2 wouldn't be making so much money. The people making those music videos are hardcore fans.

I don't think any kid was talking about scores. And market tests aren't 100 percent reliable. Sure there are differences between Americans and the rest of the world but given that DB has been successful everywhere, it's questionable to think it wouldn't have been had they done a more faithful job with the adaptation. The kids weren't talking about the music, they were talking about the action and the humor.

Sure kids like to see their heroes succeed and would rather not see the story abruptly end before the conclusion but that doesn't mean they need for there to be an endgoal of the story. You want that because you're not a child and appreciate more mature storytelling which has resolutions. Kids are fine with endless adventures with their favorite characters.

[GokuHater]

I don't think it's completely fair to say it wasn't liked.

There are people who love the first arcs of DB and prefer them, as well, as DB in general to Z.
Off course the "Z" portion of the story is more recognizable and remembered by the masses but I think that is kinda expected. The masses like action , the violence always glues more people and the bright transformations seem to be cool for most.
That's the way it is.

On the contrary though there is an enormous number of people who like Pilaf arc, RR arc, Budokai arcs... They are just not as known.

As for GT Black Star saga I don't think it's not loved beacuse it's mainly adventure. It just isn't as good as the rest :p
Tho pacing change from Z could have been a throwback for many people.

[Zephyr]

1. I doubt the replacement score had any substantial impact on the ratings. As an American boy back then, do you think what appealed to us was cheap basement produced synth? And if the terrible quality voice acting wasn't a put off for US audiences, why would the more dated animation? And I think you're overselling how much more dated DB looked in comparison to DBZ.

Oh please. Yes, as an American boy who grew up in that era, the Faulconer score was seen as badass.

As another person who was an American boy back then, I also found the cheap basement produced synth metal appealing. Granted, both of my parents were metal heads; I was listening to stuff like Judas Priest, Metallica, Megadeth, Iron Maiden, etc. before I could talk. The Crush 40 theme songs in the early 3D Sonic games appealed to me for similar reasons.

All that being said, though, I was already hooked on DBZ before "Season 3" and the Faulconer Productions score hit the air waves. A lot of people were, clearly, else "Season 3" wouldn't have been produced.

DBZ's success in other countries, which didn't use replacement scores, should tell you how unnecessary it was to change the score. It was going to be a hit regardless. And, no, it's not as if Americans have some unique proclivity towards heavy metal, a genre that came from the UK, and is (just like DBZ) hugely popular all over the world.

3. For an adventure show, it doesn't have a real end goal. What's the goal in One Piece? Well, it's in the title. What's the goal in Avatar? Defeating the Fire Lord. The goal in Dragon Ball, if the title and opening credits are any indication, is finding the Dragon Balls, but that's not really the case past the first arc. They pretty much fade into the background, while the ACTUAL goal changes with each arc, and only two arcs actually involve saving the world.

"Not really" and "pretty much" are doing a lot of heavy lifting here. The titular orbs do indeed play a central role in the Red Ribbon and Piccolo Daimao arcs.

But that to the side, pre-Z Dragon Ball isn't an "adventure show". It tried to be one, briefly, twice, but even in the source material that proved unviable. Which is the point of the thread. Past the first arc, Goku's central overarching goal is to become stronger, and to test his strength. Specifically, this takes the form of him wanting to finally win the Tenkaichi Budokai, which he loses twice throughout the series. Stories do take place between tournaments, but Goku and the other martial artists are never not looking forward to the next tournament.

[DefinitiveDubs]

DBZ's success in other countries, which didn't use replacement scores, should tell you how unnecessary it was to change the score. It was going to be a hit regardless. And, no, it's not as if Americans have some unique proclivity towards heavy metal, a genre that came from the UK, and is (just like DBZ) hugely popular all over the world.

I think there's been a misunderstanding. I'm not saying Dragon Ball wasn't as successful because it didn't have a replacement score. I'm saying that because it didn't have a replacement score, that only contributed to the divide that made OG DB seem weird in comparison to Z to us American kids.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I'm not saying Dragon Ball wasn't as successful because it didn't have a replacement score. I'm saying that because it didn't have a replacement score, that only contributed to the divide that made OG DB seem weird in comparison to Z to us American kids.

Kids who watched Dragon Ball on Toonami didn't know whether the score was the original or a replacement, at least most didn't, they just enjoyed it without questioning or analysing it.

[MasenkoHA]

DBZ's success in other countries, which didn't use replacement scores, should tell you how unnecessary it was to change the score. It was going to be a hit regardless. And, no, it's not as if Americans have some unique proclivity towards heavy metal, a genre that came from the UK, and is (just like DBZ) hugely popular all over the world.

I think there's been a misunderstanding. I'm not saying Dragon Ball wasn't as successful because it didn't have a replacement score. I'm saying that because it didn't have a replacement score, that only contributed to the divide that made OG DB seem weird in comparison to Z to us American kids.

Again the same composer's music would have been heard by kids a bajillion times when they watched Dead Zone and World's Strongest on Toonami.

The replacement score did not have any impact or influence

By the time Dragon Ball's 2001 dub started airing kids would have already been familiar with Ron Wasserman's music for the first 2 seasons and the tv version of Tree of Might, The Team Faulconer stuff for season 3 and 4 and Shunsuke Kikuchi's music for the first 2 Z movies (and Tree of Might if they owned the vhs or dvd) . Team Faulconer was hardly the only style of music for what kids would associate with Dragon Ball in 2001

[ABED]

I can only speak from my experience, but I don't think the music was that well regarded by even casual audiences. It's the music one generation associates with the show, but it's pretty much gone now. I don't recall anyone at school talking about it either in the negative or positive. The voices weren't well liked at the time, but the story and characters were so strong, the show could overcome any of those changes.

I think the series does appeal as an adventure series, but once you get into the ever escalating threats, quests for the Dragon Ball can feel a step back. Namek does a good job with that as it isn't about finding all the Dragon Balls, as much as it is the cat and mouse game.

[Soppa Saia People]

I really do think in like, 3-5 years, the love for the Faulconer score will really not be that much of a thing. Obviously it'll always have its fans, but as the Dragon Ball fandom is more and more comprised of English speaking fans who grew up with Kai, with the dub with the original score, or even stuff like Super, less and less people will swear by it. It's already kinda happened to be honest.

[ABED]

I really do think in like, 3-5 years, the love for the Faulconer score will really not be that much of a thing. Obviously it'll always have its fans, but as the Dragon Ball fandom is more and more comprised of English speaking fans who grew up with Kai, with the dub with the original score, or even stuff like Super, less and less people will swear by it. It's already kinda happened to be honest.

It feels like the only people who have a fondness for it were people who grew up with it, but many of them are aging out of Dragon Ball if they haven't already, and it's not picking up any new fans seeing as how most Dragon Ball releases (to my understanding) default to the original score. Let's not forget, folks, the heyday of the Z dub was over TWENTY years ago.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

most Dragon Ball releases (to my understanding) default to the original score. Let's not forget, folks, the heyday of the Z dub was over TWENTY years ago.

You can go a step further than that, as ALL the in-print home releases default to the original score. The only releases where the primary audio track contains the replacement scores are the original DVD singles, which naturally the current generation of fans wouldn't be seeking out, if they were collecting Dragon Ball physically at all.

It's hard to say will new fans keep standing by the (false) notion the Faulconer Productions score was what made Dragon Ball popular. They say empty vessels make the most noise, and the Internet has a way of making vocal minorities sound infinitely more prolific than they are. The Faulconer Productions score was largely derided during its run on Toonami and didn't have much online presence until the late 2000s when those fans grew up and had access to computers, but even since then I believe its always been a small number of fans that think Dragon Ball wouldn't have been successful without the US score. Its just they are so adamant their voices will always appear more dominant within the fandom than they are in actuality.

[DefinitiveDubs]

I really do think in like, 3-5 years, the love for the Faulconer score will really not be that much of a thing. Obviously it'll always have its fans, but as the Dragon Ball fandom is more and more comprised of English speaking fans who grew up with Kai, with the dub with the original score, or even stuff like Super, less and less people will swear by it. It's already kinda happened to be honest.

It feels like the only people who have a fondness for it were people who grew up with it, but many of them are aging out of Dragon Ball if they haven't already, and it's not picking up any new fans seeing as how most Dragon Ball releases (to my understanding) default to the original score. Let's not forget, folks, the heyday of the Z dub was over TWENTY years ago.

I hope you know comments like this saying "you only like it because you grew up with it" only fuel the perception of Kanzenshuu being seen as a community of elitist gatekeepers.

[MasenkoHA]

I really do think in like, 3-5 years, the love for the Faulconer score will really not be that much of a thing. Obviously it'll always have its fans, but as the Dragon Ball fandom is more and more comprised of English speaking fans who grew up with Kai, with the dub with the original score, or even stuff like Super, less and less people will swear by it. It's already kinda happened to be honest.

It feels like the only people who have a fondness for it were people who grew up with it, but many of them are aging out of Dragon Ball if they haven't already, and it's not picking up any new fans seeing as how most Dragon Ball releases (to my understanding) default to the original score. Let's not forget, folks, the heyday of the Z dub was over TWENTY years ago.

I hope you know comments like this saying "you only like it because you grew up with it" only fuel the perception of Kanzenshuu being seen as a community of elitist gatekeepers.

He's not making an accusation, he's making an observation. And like....he's not wrong to point out it is mostly fans who grew up with the Faulconer score who swear by it. The overwhelming fandom opinion on the Faulconer score was negative until maybe 2007. There's a reason Funimation used the fact they were keeping the original Japanese music as a selling point when they announced they were doing the original Dragon Ball dub and why they had no qualms with replacing Faulconer with Menza for GT or hell why they never bothered replacing music for another non-Z/GT license. And its not a coincidence the big switch in general opinion on Faulconer's score happened when the Toonami kids became teenagers and young adults. Although you can certainly make the argument the big initial disdain for Faulconer's music was because the online fandom in 1999-2003ish would have mostly been subbed fans who were used to Z with Kikuchi's music.

Anyways I don't think Abed is saying the Faulconer music is objectively bad and you only like it because nostalgia just that the people who are super attached to it grew up with it. Which is 100 percent true.

[VegettoEX]

I hope you know comments like this saying "you only like it because you grew up with it" only fuel the perception of Kanzenshuu being seen as a community of elitist gatekeepers.

That's not what he said, though. You made up words to put in quotes. What he actually said was:

- "It feels like the only people who have a fondness for it were people who grew up with it"; followed by...
- "and it's not picking up any new fans seeing as how most Dragon Ball releases (to my understanding) default to the original score"

This is such a pedestrian, inconsequential observation that I don't see how you can conjure up any reaction whatsoever.

And it's all true!

The Faulconer Productions replacement score's last bastion of contemporary relevance was literally twenty years ago (2003) when it aired on Cartoon Network. That team was itself then shoved aside to instead go with multiple other in-house composers (Nathan Johnson and Mark Menza). On the next set of home releases -- the orange bricks -- the default audio track is the English dub with the original Japanese musical score; that's remained the same each set after that. From there on out, FUNimation stopped replacing musical scores, and even their streaming versions of the DBZ dub by and large went with the Kikuchi score.

It's not "gatekeeping" to point this out. It's not "gatekeeping" to make observations. It's not "gatekeeping" to project out theories about the future based on those observations.

I constantly see "gatekeeping" tossed around a la this exact case as some sort of magical boogeyman in an attempt to suppress... what's otherwise, again, a completely innocuous, rational observation. Who's really shutting down who here?

The Kai kids, by and large, seem to have no fondness or interest in the Faulconer Productions replacement score. That's a very common sentiment expressed across all English-speaking-fandom arenas. Nothing in the two sentences I just wrote make any kind of judgement about what kind of musical score you, dear reader, were first exposed to and/or continue to enjoy!

[ABED]

I really do think in like, 3-5 years, the love for the Faulconer score will really not be that much of a thing. Obviously it'll always have its fans, but as the Dragon Ball fandom is more and more comprised of English speaking fans who grew up with Kai, with the dub with the original score, or even stuff like Super, less and less people will swear by it. It's already kinda happened to be honest.

It feels like the only people who have a fondness for it were people who grew up with it, but many of them are aging out of Dragon Ball if they haven't already, and it's not picking up any new fans seeing as how most Dragon Ball releases (to my understanding) default to the original score. Let's not forget, folks, the heyday of the Z dub was over TWENTY years ago.

I hope you know comments like this saying "you only like it because you grew up with it" only fuel the perception of Kanzenshuu being seen as a community of elitist gatekeepers.

That's not gatekeeping. I'm not saying they aren't real fans if they like that music. I don't pass negative judgment on those who do enjoy it. Gatekeeping is telling people "you aren't allowed in the fandom if you like such and such..." I don't see how what I wrote is akin to saying "you aren't a real fan."

The Star Wars prequels have their fans and the opinion on those films have changed over the years because those that grew up with them came of age. I'm sure they'll pick up new fans. The difference between the prequels and the Faulconer score is the prequels continue to be released on home video and streaming. They exist and have the ability to pick up new fans. The Faulconer score isn't on streaming (to my knowledge) and it's not the default music on subsequent releases. I think most people who watch either streaming or buy the discs go with the default in the same way most people don't understand aspect ratios and prefer to have the image take up the whole screen regardless of how the original image was framed.

[Raki]

I really do think in like, 3-5 years, the love for the Faulconer score will really not be that much of a thing. Obviously it'll always have its fans, but as the Dragon Ball fandom is more and more comprised of English speaking fans who grew up with Kai, with the dub with the original score, or even stuff like Super, less and less people will swear by it. It's already kinda happened to be honest.

Honestly that is a great thing. As a young person I hated the generic Falcouner score. But I have seen people on Facebook and Instagram get upset that the Falcouner score isn't available on streaming.

[WittyUsername]

I really do think in like, 3-5 years, the love for the Faulconer score will really not be that much of a thing. Obviously it'll always have its fans, but as the Dragon Ball fandom is more and more comprised of English speaking fans who grew up with Kai, with the dub with the original score, or even stuff like Super, less and less people will swear by it. It's already kinda happened to be honest.

From my observation, the Faulconer score already isn’t much of a “thing” anymore. It’s 2023 now. The orange bricks have been around for over a decade and a half. Most English speaking fans seem to have gotten pretty accustomed to hearing Dragon Ball without the Faulconer music.

[DragonBallFoodie]

DB was heavily inspired by the Japanese adventure show MONKEY (which itself was based on Journey to the West), so despite the original touches Toriyama gave, it wasn't until Goku had enemies to fight that it picked up popularity.

I believe that DB and DBZ are so strongly tied to the 80s-90s zeitgeist that they need to be seen within the context of those eras. And around those years, action manga was making its mark with FIST OF THE NORTHERN STAR, ST SEIYA and the like. DB became more action-focused than adventure as part of the trend occurring back then, as far as I can recall (someone who knows better can confirm this).

[ABED]

I don't know if it's an issue of trends. It stands to reason that action stories would catch on easier as they're an easier story to grasp. You barely need any context. Person A wants to fight, Person B may or may not, but fight ensues.

[Zephyr]

With Toriyama saying "it seemed at the time a road manga just wasn’t what people wanted", trends of the time could definitely have played a role.