Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Thani]

The current conversation in this thread is a stark reminder as to why "feats" can sometimes make people blind to the context of what they're talking about.

The story makes it clear, unequivocally and on multiple occasions, that both Granolah and Gas were pretty shit at wielding their new strength and had to slowly adjust over time, consequently forcing them to work for their advantages. The characters literally talk about this constantly throughout the arc. It wasn't as simple as getting X battle power and instantly stomping, although it did make them a threat.

Nothing remotely implies that SSBE Vegeta grew dramatically stronger between the Moro and Granolah arcs. His fights portray two completely different circumstances.

I'm gonna be cheeky and add that Granolah, before getting acclimated to his power, performed against Vegeta almost the exact same as his clone performed against Goku.

So I'm gonna assume that Granolah's cloning technnique is not the same as Tien's multiform and actually uses the original's full power. And thus, without the experience and capacity to use said power to back him up, Granolah would get trashed by MUI Goku just as his clone did. At least initially.

It's really telling that Granny only defeated Goku after exploiting Ultra Instinct's weaknesses.

And with that said, I'll concede that just as Gas did, a Granolah actually experienced in wielding his power could probably defeat Goku and Vegeta in their Ultra forms in a 1v1.

[Mr Baggins]

It's really telling that Granny only defeated Goku after exploiting Ultra Instinct's weaknesses.

Pretty much. Granolah himself admitted that he needed to wait for UI's accuracy to drop over time and then use his special eyesight to even touch Goku; otherwise his performance probably wouldn't have been that much better than Moro's at first.

It was only because Granolah's fighting experience was so limited that Goku and Vegeta were able to put up a decent fight, which Vegeta also points out.

[Skar]

Vegeta could've gotten 20x stronger with Pybara, surpassing SS Broly and being like initial FP Broly, but still a tad below Prime Moro and Broly, and after training with Beerus for a while, just doubling his power or more, thus surpassing Broly.

Now that the manga is covering SH, I wonder if anything will change since it implied Goku and Vegeta were still weaker than Jiren and Broly. Base Gogeta was above regular Blue so current UI and UE could be between SSJ1 and Blue Gogeta. I think that could still work with SH since they would between SSJ and LSSJ Broly. It would enough for them to be "noticeably" stronger but not by several hundred times or anything like that.

[Berserker1921]

Vegeta could've gotten 20x stronger with Pybara, surpassing SS Broly and being like initial FP Broly, but still a tad below Prime Moro and Broly, and after training with Beerus for a while, just doubling his power or more, thus surpassing Broly.

Now that the manga is covering SH, I wonder if anything will change since it implied Goku and Vegeta were still weaker than Jiren and Broly. Base Gogeta was above regular Blue so current UI and UE could be between SSJ1 and Blue Gogeta. I think that could still work with SH since they would between SSJ and LSSJ Broly. It would enough for them to be "noticeably" stronger but not by several hundred times or anything like that.

What if, maybe just maybe Goku and Vegeta haven’t grown that much? Toriyama still thinks Jiren and Broly are goals for the two to surpass. Maybe when he achieved UI, he could just make it last longer. Vegeta reaching his level. And the argument about Broly could be that he grew in between Broly to Superhero. Prob when training with the guys.

[Skar]

What if, maybe just maybe Goku and Vegeta haven’t grown that much? Toriyama still thinks Jiren and Broly are goals for the two to surpass. Maybe when he achieved UI, he could just make it last longer. Vegeta reaching his level. And the argument about Broly could be that he grew in between Broly to Superhero. Prob when training with the guys.

That's what I was thinking. In the film continuity, they might not have gotten much stronger since the ToP. Their highest form should still be regular Blue and Goku might not have accessed UI since then. They grew stronger in the manga but might not be enough to surpass Jiren and Broly if Toyotaro wants it to fit with SH. It's also possible Broly is stronger now and they surpassed him from the last film but it's not really clear in SH.

[ankokudaishogun]

More likely: Broly is just that strong and still unsurpassed by G&V as for raw power-level goes and Jiren is still unsurpassed as for Skill goes


More in general both are characters needing the full power of UI to be defeated and G&V have NOT mastered that level yet: despite the great improvements in Toyo's sagas they "only" got much closer.

Plus both are still training(we know this for sure for Broly, but nothing suggests Jiren might stop): even moderate improvements from their part would probably be enough to keep them above G&V, if progressively less.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think the simple answer is that there haven't been any major differences in overall power between these past few antagonists.

So Jiren and Broly are still very much competitive power-wise with later manga antagonists because they were already stronger than Gods of Destruction.

[Yuji]

I think the simple answer is that there haven't been any major differences in overall power between these past few antagonists.

So Jiren and Broly are still very much competitive power-wise with later manga antagonists because they were already stronger than Gods of Destruction.

Maybe they'd be competitive now since they've probably been training off-screen, but there's a pretty clear linear progression between arcs.

Gas > Granolah > Moro arc MUI > Angel Moro > 73 Moro > Broly > Jiren

[Koitsukai]

Broly never being surpassed would be extremely at odds with the entire Granola arc and its interviews that made the ranking very clear, just in case different interpretations were made.
I mean, we had to sit through that for like 2 years, if it was going to be overlooked, it would've been nice if we knew that before hand

It'd be also at odds with Moro73 being said to be the strongest, and with those panels of Goku placing both of them at the peak of the universe, in agreement with Whis. Geets can't surpass movie Broly by just growing slightly stronger, in fact the training in Yadrat implied he actually grew significantly stronger by the time he beat Yuzun even. That's all Toyo, he'd be retconning his own, current, work.

Most likely, Broly's current and unseen FP is what puts him between them and Freeza. Post zenkai, post training with Goku, etc.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think the simple answer is that there haven't been any major differences in overall power between these past few antagonists.

So Jiren and Broly are still very much competitive power-wise with later manga antagonists because they were already stronger than Gods of Destruction.

Maybe they'd be competitive now since they've probably been training off-screen, but there's a pretty clear linear progression between arcs.

Gas > Granolah > Moro arc MUI > Angel Moro > 73 Moro > Broly > Jiren

The thing is, how big are the differences really? People always assume they're big, but what if they're not? What if it's only by like 1/2% each time, and the differences in how that fighter uses their comparable power is what makes up the difference for a lack of true battle power increase?

It's certainly better than assuming some unstated offscreen training gains, or other kind of really out-there explanations.

Performance doesn't necessarily always equate to power.

[Mr Baggins]

I cannot stress this enough: Goku compared Broly's power to Beerus. He hasn't done that with any other antagonist. There was also that recent website interview where Uchida mentioned Broly as being one of the characters Goku hasn't caught up to yet, a statement that Toyotaro didn't contest.

So while it's admittedly a bit odd that the Granolah and Moro arcs don't mention Broly, it's equally possible that that's due to A) Toyotaro not wanting to confuse his manga-only readers (Broly gets a passing mention in one of the bonus chapters of the Moro arc, but not the serialized ones) and B) Broly's FP state being something he can't tap into at will. I don't think it's at all likely that Goku and Vegeta surpassing Broly is the intended thrust right now, but we'll see.

Edit: I also agree with Perhaps that the gains of the main characters (in equivalent forms, at least) are relatively modest, as they've always been. There was already a consensus earlier in this thread that it doesn't take an enormous BP difference to start one-shotting other characters.

[Yuji]

I cannot stress this enough: Goku compared Broly's power to Beerus. He hasn't done that with any other antagonist. There was also that recent website interview where Uchida mentioned Broly as being one of the characters Goku hasn't caught up to yet, a statement that Toyotaro didn't contest.

So while it's admittedly a bit odd that the Granolah and Moro arcs don't mention Broly, it's equally possible that that's due to A) Toyotaro not wanting to confuse his manga-only readers (Broly gets a passing mention in one of the bonus chapters of the Moro arc, but not the serialized ones) and B) Broly's FP state being something he can't tap into at will. I don't think it's at all likely that Goku and Vegeta surpassing Broly is the intended thrust right now, but we'll see.

Edit: I also agree with Perhaps that the gains of the main characters (in equivalent forms, at least) are relatively modest, as they've always been. There was already a consensus earlier in this thread that it doesn't take an enormous BP difference to start one-shotting other characters.

Shin also compared Blue Vegetto to Beerus. The Broly movie Gogeta should be somewhat stronger but not excessively so, and yet Gogeta wiped the floor with Broly. Cell Max was also stated to be a rival to Broly but I don't think anyone believes Beast could one shot Beerus.

It's likely Goku meant his potential to grow in battle more-so than his peak battle power at the time. Also Beerus has been progressively retconned to be stronger each arc anyway.

[Mr Baggins]

Shin also compared Blue Vegetto to Beerus. The Broly movie Gogeta should be somewhat stronger but not excessively so, and yet Gogeta wiped the floor with Broly.

No, Shin wondered if Blue Vegetto was already stronger than Beerus. To what extent isn't specified.

That hardly contradicts the notion that all three of those fighters – Broly, Gogeta, and Vegetto – exceed that threshold of power. It just means they fit the "greater than Beerus" criterion, which goes all the way up to Grand Priest and beyond. At the time, Beerus was the best available means of comparison.

Cell Max was also stated to be a rival to Broly

He was not. That quote referred to an entirely hypothetical completed version of Cell Max that didn't actually exist in the film.

If that alone doesn't tell you that the writers currently working on Super still consider Broly to be a massive benchmark, I don't know what does.

[Miracles]

It's clear, without outside influence, Broly is not among the top in the manga universe. Black Freeza is currently the upper echelon.
Now in the movie verse, where Super Hero is just a sequel to DBS Broly, naturally Broly would still be considered above Goku and Vegeta.

Currently Broly's placement is a matter of separate universes. Where a cohesive continuity is wanting. It seems the manga, with this prequel arc will try and connect to Super Hero. Then we will finally see where Broly places in the manga.

[Koitsukai]

The manga has a 20-chapter arc literally devoted to the strongest in the universe, with even a chapter called Universe's Greatest Warrior, with unlimited magic making that happen, so there can't be any doubt regarding who was the top dog.
The wish was sort of a monkey's paw, but I seriously doubt it'd be as lame as not even granting the actual wish, or that the arc wasn't what it was actually claiming it was. Besides the red herring angle was already taken care by Freeza.

To top that, we have the author concluding an interview saying the 3 strongest in the universe were duking it out, no matter who the editor might've been rooting for. Any explanation to why somebody else might have been excluded is nowhere in the material (unless Freeza wasn't the only one in a pocket dimension), therefore has no factual support.

For the movie, yes, none of those people seem to exist, so there's no debate there. This doesn't mean the manga cannot connect both continuities and retcon itself, but as of now, the previous arc was not conceived with Broly at the top.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Does Goku actually say Broly and Jiren are stronger than him though? From what I can see, he just tells Vegeta there are strong guys out there. Jiren is training to surpass them and Broly can probably surpass them with 3 push ups.

Toyotaro insists Goku, Vegeta and Granolah were competing for strongest, but I can actually see Broly not counting. Nobody considers Gohan the strongest when he’s slacking off, just the would-be-strongest. I wouldn’t say Uchida’s word means anything since Toyotaro ignored him. I’ve seen people interpret his silence in different ways.

I'm gonna be cheeky and add that Granolah, before getting acclimated to his power, performed against Vegeta almost the exact same as his clone performed against Goku.

So I'm gonna assume that Granolah's cloning technnique is not the same as Tien's multiform and actually uses the original's full power. And thus, without the experience and capacity to use said power to back him up, Granolah would get trashed by MUI Goku just as his clone did. At least initially.

It's really telling that Granny only defeated Goku after exploiting Ultra Instinct's weaknesses.

And with that said, I'll concede that just as Gas did, a Granolah actually experienced in wielding his power could probably defeat Goku and Vegeta in their Ultra forms in a 1v1.

Then was does Granolah saying he “split his power” mean?

Well, Granolah getting his red eye is basically him getting used to his powers, so you’re right on the money.

I think the simple answer is that there haven't been any major differences in overall power between these past few antagonists.

So Jiren and Broly are still very much competitive power-wise with later manga antagonists because they were already stronger than Gods of Destruction.

I don’t think that explains it though. If Prime or 73 Moro is more or less on their level (he’s the strongest guy Goku ever fought, but it doesn’t have to be by much), that means Broly and Jiren would also break their hands punching Goku. And Goku got a new form in the Granolah Saga.

[QuakingStar]

The only multiplier that has even ever been hinted to still be a thing in the anime was for fusion formulas, and the SS form which in this context Goku was using it. This means SS4thGrade aka SSFP in DBSuper is what gives the 50x power boost. Normal SS? No idea for DBSuper.

[Mr Baggins]

Broly probably doesn't even know how to intentionally trigger Super Saiyan again. It's awkward as hell to suggest that Toronbo was gauging the entire history of the universe when he made Granolah the strongest; it's more likely, I think, that he just made him the current strongest at the time of the wish, which obviously would exclude any temporary states from the past.

And for anyone who thinks it'd be lame that an arc ostensibly about the strongest in the universe wasn't actually about the strongest, I've got bad news.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah, looking at Super Hero there's never a word said about Broly and Jiren being stronger. Goku specifically teases Vegeta for (thinking he's) not training, says he'll get rusty and tells him to snap out of it because "the world is full of strong guys". Moro, Gas, and (presumably) Granolah are all dead, so no need to worry about these guys catching up. Jiren said he'd train, and Broly has just started his training, and the Hakaishin are the final rivals.

That's probably why AT compared Cell Max to Broly, besides not wanting to confuse the anime/movie only audiences. How would "Had Cell Max been completed, not even Moro or Gas would stop him" make any sense? They're dead! Of course they wouldn't stop him.


On the matter of how much Goku and Vegeta improved:

Ch. 58, pg. 34.2
Context: Goku is thrashing Saganbo
Piccolo: “Way stronger than the last time we saw him in Blue form. Looks like his training really paid off…”

And for anyone who thinks it'd be lame that an arc ostensibly about the strongest in the universe wasn't actually about the strongest, I've got bad news.

That's about Gohan, who became the strongest, not Broly. Broly's not "emerging" anywhere.

[Mr Baggins]

That's about Gohan, who became the strongest, not Broly. Broly's not "emerging" anywhere.

It could be about anyone. My point (and the point of the arc, really) is that this stuff is hardly ever clear-cut.