Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

[Shaddy]

Of course, they always deal with people with disagree with them. It's politics we're talking about here.

That's exactly my point. Left-wingers would only like the right if it was like the left, basically another left.

I'm still not seeing your point here. Both sides essentially want the other to not exist, because that's how their side can shape society to their worldview. The right and left are fundamentally opposed, why the hell would they "like" each other?

[ankokudaishogun]

Roshi’s sexual offenses are toxic traits (because it harms women, DUH) which is based on the idea that a woman ought to fulfill the desires of a man (masculine dominance). Obviously it’s a form of toxic masculinity, there’s no bullshitting about it.

"Toxic Masculinity" refers to negative traits being portrayed/accepted as "desiderable"(or at least "acceptable") in males.
Muten's pervertness is NEVER treated as anything remotely "acceptable" by anybody.

It's a simple character flaw that is used for jokes.
Not a portrayal of toxic Masculinity.

[JulieYBM]

Roshi’s sexual offenses are toxic traits (because it harms women, DUH) which is based on the idea that a woman ought to fulfill the desires of a man (masculine dominance). Obviously it’s a form of toxic masculinity, there’s no bullshitting about it.

"Toxic Masculinity" refers to negative traits being portrayed/accepted as "desiderable"(or at least "acceptable") in males.
Muten's pervertness is NEVER treated as anything remotely "acceptable" by anybody.

It's a simple character flaw that is used for jokes.
Not a portrayal of toxic Masculinity.

Toxic masculinity also refers to normalizing traits expect of men and one of those traits is the idea that men will simply always be horny and deserve sex from women. That Dragon Ball doesn't seek to actually dissuade from this at all is the flaw at hand here.

[Yuji]

Of course, they always deal with people with disagree with them. It's politics we're talking about here.

That's exactly my point. Left-wingers would only like the right if it was like the left, basically another left.

I'm still not seeing your point here. Both sides essentially want the other to not exist, because that's how their side can shape society to their worldview. The right and left are fundamentally opposed, why the hell would they "like" each other?

Do you... do you think people with different political views can't get along somehow?

[Shaddy]

Do you... do you think people with different political views can't get along somehow?

Who is "people with different political views"? Augusto Pinochet? Jerry Seinfeld? George Soros? My mom? This is a supremely silly question that I shouldn't have to answer. Yeah, of course people can leave political differences behind when those differences don't make one side completely fucking monstrous. But oops, in this case it does! Attacks on LGBT people (for example) is a huge part of the right's platform right now. Why would I "get along" with people who want me in conversion camps for being bisexual?

[Yuji]

Do you... do you think people with different political views can't get along somehow?

Who is "people with different political views"? Augusto Pinochet? Jerry Seinfeld? George Soros? My mom? This is a supremely silly question that I shouldn't have to answer. Yeah, of course people can leave political differences behind when those differences don't make one side completely fucking monstrous. But oops, in this case it does! Attacks on LGBT people (for example) is a huge part of the right's platform right now. Why would I "get along" with people who want me in conversion camps for being bisexual?

Are we talking about right-wing voters or right-wing politicians?

I also don't think any Republican that's taken seriously is pushing on the anti-gay and gay conversion therapy nonsense anymore. It's not 2015 anymore, the window has shifted. They're entirely focused on trans people right now because it's the only slightly controversial issue among the general public.

[JulieYBM]

Do you... do you think people with different political views can't get along somehow?

Who is "people with different political views"? Augusto Pinochet? Jerry Seinfeld? George Soros? My mom? This is a supremely silly question that I shouldn't have to answer. Yeah, of course people can leave political differences behind when those differences don't make one side completely fucking monstrous. But oops, in this case it does! Attacks on LGBT people (for example) is a huge part of the right's platform right now. Why would I "get along" with people who want me in conversion camps for being bisexual?

Are we talking about right-wing voters or right-wing politicians?

I also don't think any Republican that's taken seriously is pushing on the anti-gay and gay conversion therapy nonsense anymore. It's not 2015 anymore, the window has shifted. They're entirely focused on trans people right now because it's the only slightly controversial issue among the general public.

1. Most trans people are bi or gay, therefore the bi and gay population are still being affected by conversion therapy.

2. They're going to go after the cis queers right after they're done genociding us (or if they can, at the same time).

[Hellspawn28]

I also don't think any Republican that's taken seriously is pushing on the anti-gay and gay conversion therapy nonsense anymore.

Some states still have conversion therapy camps. Also, the don't say gay bill is a thing that passed in the state of FL.

2. They're going to go after the cis queers right after they're done genociding us (or if they can, at the same time).

They will probably go after POC and non-christain religous people as well.

[MasenkoHA]

. It's not 2015 anymore, the window has shifted. They're entirely focused on trans people right now because it's the only slightly controversial issue among the general public.

The whole "groomer" rhetoric is in full force though. Trans people (specifically trans women) and drag queens are getting the brunt of it but Republicans are absolutely running on the idea that "the gays are grooming your kids through media and public education!" Prime example is Republicans deciding Disney is woke and perverted for uh *checks notes* saying they won't back homophobic politicians in solidarity with their gay employees* and sometimes they have blink and miss it gays in their movie

[WittyUsername]

Republicans are absolutely still obsessing over gay issues. They’re just trying to use “protecting children” as a convenient excuse for doing so.

https://www.metroweekly.com/2022/10/mar ... riage/amp/

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/2 ... s-00042256

[ClutchBangstrip]

Depends...

Either DB doesn't actively participate OR it's the Shonen that participates the least.

I definitely see toxic aspects in it, but with nearly EVERY social ill DB contributes to, it has either rectified that toxicity or actively counters it. It's literally why it has the most diverse fanbase and is considered the GOAT anime/manga franchise. And I don't even think DB did any of this on purpose. It just sorta happens, telling a really long story that spans decades in an ever evolving culture.

'Also have to stress, ~90% of DB's fans exist offline. You can't use something you saw on Twitter to judge a series' whose fanbase stretches across the planet.

[ankokudaishogun]

Toxic masculinity also refers to normalizing traits expect of men and one of those traits is the idea that men will simply always be horny and deserve sex from women. That Dragon Ball doesn't seek to actually dissuade from this at all is the flaw at hand here.

Exactly: NORMALIZING.

Muten's perversion was NEVER treated as normal by ANY of the characters.
Everybody thought it a negative trait. Nobody tried to emulate it.

[JulieYBM]

Toxic masculinity also refers to normalizing traits expect of men and one of those traits is the idea that men will simply always be horny and deserve sex from women. That Dragon Ball doesn't seek to actually dissuade from this at all is the flaw at hand here.

Exactly: NORMALIZING.

Muten's perversion was NEVER treated as normal by ANY of the characters.
Everybody thought it a negative trait. Nobody tried to emulate it.

The series itself normalized those traits and never actually did or said anything about it. There's a reason why it keeps being included and it's because the people making these projects like it and don't think it's a big deal or that they have a responsibility to be clear and provide consequences for their behavior or the abusive behavior of the Muten Roushi.

[WittyUsername]

Toxic masculinity also refers to normalizing traits expect of men and one of those traits is the idea that men will simply always be horny and deserve sex from women. That Dragon Ball doesn't seek to actually dissuade from this at all is the flaw at hand here.

Exactly: NORMALIZING.

Muten's perversion was NEVER treated as normal by ANY of the characters.
Everybody thought it a negative trait. Nobody tried to emulate it.

To be fair, while the series never treats Roshi’s perverted behavior as “ok” per se, it also never treats them as appalling or vile. Roshi is painted as a lovable old goof who gets a mere slap on the wrist whenever he acts like a creep, and the other characters still accept him as their friend. His perversions are treated as a mere eccentricity.

[Gaffer Tape]

Exactly. It's treated as something a few other characters might be slightly embarrassed by and that the victims are not pleased with, but it's also behavior that's treated as expected. If you're an attractive woman who hangs around this social circle, you're just gonna get groped once in a while. Hope you're okay with that! And, guess what? They are. Some of his victims even choose to live with him for multiple years. If that's not normalizing the behavior, I don't know what is. And to be clear, I'm someone who finds *most* of DB's raunchy humor funny within its context, but there is definitely a discussion to be had in regards to how normalized the Muten Roshi's behavior is and how it's both inspired by its culture and how its depiction can reinforce that behavior in the real world.

[Hellspawn28]

Despite stats on there being more FtM trans people than MtF, only MtF is massively raged on

I don't think we have a true number on who we have more of. Trans Men are also hated by people are just as bad as trans women as many people have been beaten up or killed. I seen people that think that trans men are rapey lesbians. Not to mention, Elliot Page has transphobia comments toward towards him pretty much every day.

To the point transphobes will often make asses of them telling trans MEN they'll never be a woman. Bigotry makes you stupid, who knew?

Bigots who end up being accidental allies is some of the funniest shit out there . Like when someone told Keffals that she will never be a real man.

[Majin Buu]

The series itself normalized those traits and never actually did or said anything about it. There's a reason why it keeps being included and it's because the people making these projects like it and don't think it's a big deal or that they have a responsibility to be clear and provide consequences for their behavior or the abusive behavior of the Muten Roushi.

That scene in Super where Tenshinhan awkwardly stands there doing nothing while Roshi abducts Yurin so he can heavily creep on her in private to the point of partially undressing her comes to mind here.

[JulieYBM]

The series itself normalized those traits and never actually did or said anything about it. There's a reason why it keeps being included and it's because the people making these projects like it and don't think it's a big deal or that they have a responsibility to be clear and provide consequences for their behavior or the abusive behavior of the Muten Roushi.

That scene in Super where Tenshinhan awkwardly standing there doing nothing while Roshi abducts Yurin so he can heavily creep on her in private to the point of partially undressing her comes to mind.

Yeah, it's just so blatant and weird, especially in a series aimed at kids. It doesn't even really feel like they were making an erotica, either, it's just..."Yeah, women suck lulz let's have the Kame-sen'nin rape one!" and I'm just...why? It's not funny, it's not child-appropriate, it's not made to appeal to women with kinks, it's just bad, insulting, and a waste of time that sends a wrong message about sexual assault.

[PurestEvil]

The series itself normalized those traits and never actually did or said anything about it. There's a reason why it keeps being included and it's because the people making these projects like it and don't think it's a big deal or that they have a responsibility to be clear and provide consequences for their behavior or the abusive behavior of the Muten Roushi.

That scene in Super where Tenshinhan awkwardly stands there doing nothing while Roshi abducts Yurin so he can heavily creep on her in private to the point of partially undressing her comes to mind here.

Despite being only 5 years ago, I believe that was the most aggravating “pervy Roshi” scene in the whole franchise (maybe except for Roshi askng a teenaged Bulma to pull up her skirt) just because of how blatantly violent that moment was. I feel like the fact that Yurin was the villain of the episode might have made it come across as “justified” as well, especially since Roshi attacked her partially to find out about her (but he totally would have SA’d her in the process).

[DatHenson]

Yeah it's just bad
And that's ignoring what he did to Puar before the arc to "cure" himself
Puar needs therapy