Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[QuakingStar]

In context Gamma's help came before Gohan Beast. Gamma's aided Piccolo in awakening Gohan Beast through weakening Cell Max in order for Orange Piccolo to almost sacrifice himself, allowing Gohan Beast to enter. This was Piccolo's entire goal throughout the movie. He wasn't dependent on the Gamma's for victory. Only Gohan.

Otherwise why would Goku and Vegeta hide Broly from Freeza to "keep him safe?"

Because Freeza wants to recruit him, perhaps forcibly. Goku and Vegeta are obviously against that. That line's just following up from the previous film where it was established that Freeza's still looking for him. Super Hero wasn't written with the Granolah arc in mind.

With that said, this new Black Freeza form could be a good way of lending further weight to those motives. He'd still want him to join up, presumably, but now Broly is genuinely in danger of being subdued; failing recruitment, he might alternatively want Broly out of the picture if he sees him as a potential threat.

Well that's my dilemma, how are you going to force someone to join you if they are stronger than you?

1. This, Gohan Beast didn't happen until the end of the movie so before that happens it would have been impossible to defeat Cell Max. The Gamma sacrifice was able to lower Cell Max's Attack Power by destroying one of his arms, that prevented him from being able to easily get Orange Piccolo off of him when Piccolo was holding him down. Even without Special Beam Canon though Gohan was so far above Cell Max that he would have killed him anyway I just don't think Piccolo wanted to screw around and neither did Gohan after Piccolo yelled at him(No Cell, or Super Buu mistake repeats).


2. Frieza wants to kill Broly now that he has the strength to. Frieza had no idea how strong he could get with 10 years of training and had no idea a further form existed for him so once he did both of those things he was now at a level that Broly is no longer some insurmountable opponent to him and he doesn't need a lackey who wouldn't listen to him anyway and it's likely Broly has been made privy to Freeza's bullshit by Goku and Vegeta. So the most logical thing is to keep Broly safe on Beerus Planet before Frieza kills him.

[Miracles]

In context Gamma's help came before Gohan Beast. Gamma's aided Piccolo in awakening Gohan Beast through weakening Cell Max in order for Orange Piccolo to almost sacrifice himself, allowing Gohan Beast to enter. This was Piccolo's entire goal throughout the movie. He wasn't dependent on the Gamma's for victory. Only Gohan.

Because Freeza wants to recruit him, perhaps forcibly. Goku and Vegeta are obviously against that. That line's just following up from the previous film where it was established that Freeza's still looking for him. Super Hero wasn't written with the Granolah arc in mind.

With that said, this new Black Freeza form could be a good way of lending further weight to those motives. He'd still want him to join up, presumably, but now Broly is genuinely in danger of being subdued; failing recruitment, he might alternatively want Broly out of the picture if he sees him as a potential threat.

Well that's my dilemma, how are you going to force someone to join you if they are stronger than you?

1. This, Gohan Beast didn't happen until the end of the movie so before that happens it would have been impossible to defeat Cell Max. The Gamma sacrifice was able to lower Cell Max's Attack Power by destroying one of his arms, that prevented him from being able to easily get Orange Piccolo off of him when Piccolo was holding him down. Even without Special Beam Canon though Gohan was so far above Cell Max that he would have killed him anyway I just don't think Piccolo wanted to screw around and neither did Gohan after Piccolo yelled at him(No Cell, or Super Buu mistake repeats).


2. Frieza wants to kill Broly now that he has the strength to. Frieza had no idea how strong he could get with 10 years of training and had no idea a further form existed for him so once he did both of those things he was now at a level that Broly is no longer some insurmountable opponent to him and he doesn't need a lackey who wouldn't listen to him anyway and it's likely Broly has been made privy to Freeza's bullshit by Goku and Vegeta. So the most logical thing is to keep Broly safe on Beerus Planet before Frieza kills him.

I agree that Broly hiding from Freeza "to be safe" is a possible hint that Freeza could now kill Broly. Due to the manga events only. However, will Toriyama ever adopt such a plot point that Freeza was the strongest in the past arc in the next movie? All we know in the movie universe is that Freeza wanted Broly as a partner when he got his power under control. So he had Broly monitored until then. Still as Mr. Baggins and you stated, it could change where the movie verse adopts the narration of the Granolah arc. Where Freeza is now the strongest and while Broly does not have his power under control. Freeza is looking for him! So why did Goku/Vegeta need to hide Broly in order to be safe from Freeza? Interesting.

Secondly, your statement about Piccolo concerning the Gamma's not being able to win without them is within the narrative. After Gamma 2 broke off Cell Max's arm Piccolo said he had a plan. That was to enrage Gohan to let him cut loose to release all his power. So much so that Gohan Beast became the strongest "in this world." I am willing to bet that Toyotaro will continue this narrative in the manga as well. Coinciding with Toriyama's own statement about Gohan actually being stronger than anyone. Or so it is said [as usual in the Dragonball manga/Super and the Super Hero movie].

[Koitsukai]

While Mr. Baggins is correct about the Granny arc not yet being developed while this movie was written, I wouldn't discard Tori having his mind set on Freeza becoming an actual threat, like Vegeta feared in Broly, THE threat (strongest? second strongest? strong enough to complicate things? irrelevant), after letting him live twice, surviving the ToP, Broly, and Gogeta.

With that in mind you can write a movie with an absent Freeza being the thing they all fear, and let Toyo do the rest, Black Freeza, pocket dimension, one shotting everybody, etc. I doubt such a big plot point came up as the arc went by. Of course, he used to do that all the time, but isn't the Dragon Room there to have less chaos and more planning?
If we take the anime into account, there are a few hints at the story having big plans for Freeza. His desire to defeat the GoDs, his intention to overthrow Zeno(yeah, a bit too much here, Toei), being resurrected, being spared, Vegeta's concern...

[Miracles]

I just wanted to demonstrate why I believe Gohan is actually strongest; Greater than Broly, according to the totality of the narrative in context. Which gives Toriyama's statement about Gohan being stronger than anyone meaning.



Piccolo says in DBS: Super Hero that Gohan can be the strongest "in this world."




Even in the original Dragonball manga, In context Toriyama's this world/the world means among every fighter in the universe...

Chapter: 410 (DBZ 216), P6.3

Context: after Gohan beats Cell up
Cell: “Unbelievable..! To think that someone like this could exist in this world…I’m completely losing in terms of power…But a battle’s outcome is a different matter…”


Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P4.4-6

Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…

[Goku9001]

I just wanted to demonstrate why I believe Gohan is actually strongest; Greater than Broly, according to the totality of the narrative in context. Which gives Toriyama's statement about Gohan being stronger than anyone meaning.



Piccolo says in DBS: Super Hero that Gohan can be the strongest "in this world."




Even in the original Dragonball manga, In context Toriyama's this world/the world means among every fighter in the universe...

Chapter: 410 (DBZ 216), P6.3

Context: after Gohan beats Cell up
Cell: “Unbelievable..! To think that someone like this could exist in this world…I’m completely losing in terms of power…But a battle’s outcome is a different matter…”


Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P4.4-6

Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…

I think that might actually be convincing to me primarily because it's a general statement made outside of the movie. Can you link me to the source?

[Goku9001]

I just wanted to demonstrate why I believe Gohan is actually strongest; Greater than Broly, according to the totality of the narrative in context. Which gives Toriyama's statement about Gohan being stronger than anyone meaning.



Piccolo says in DBS: Super Hero that Gohan can be the strongest "in this world."




Even in the original Dragonball manga, In context Toriyama's this world/the world means among every fighter in the universe...

Chapter: 410 (DBZ 216), P6.3

Context: after Gohan beats Cell up
Cell: “Unbelievable..! To think that someone like this could exist in this world…I’m completely losing in terms of power…But a battle’s outcome is a different matter…”


Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P4.4-6

Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…

I think that might actually be convincing to me primarily because it's a general statement made outside of the movie. Can you link me to the source?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think if Goku and Vegeta were hiding Broly out of safety, they'd have taken all their friends to Beerus' Planet. Either way, Freeza's got the power to do whatever he wants to Broly.

I think that might actually be convincing to me primarily because it's a general statement made outside of the movie. Can you link me to the source?

Here. I always thought this was on his movie notes (The same ones he talks about Cell Max and Orange Piccolo), but it's a separate Q&A from around the same time.

[QuakingStar]

I just wanted to demonstrate why I believe Gohan is actually strongest; Greater than Broly, according to the totality of the narrative in context. Which gives Toriyama's statement about Gohan being stronger than anyone meaning.



Piccolo says in DBS: Super Hero that Gohan can be the strongest "in this world."




Even in the original Dragonball manga, In context Toriyama's this world/the world means among every fighter in the universe...

Chapter: 410 (DBZ 216), P6.3

Context: after Gohan beats Cell up
Cell: “Unbelievable..! To think that someone like this could exist in this world…I’m completely losing in terms of power…But a battle’s outcome is a different matter…”


Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P4.4-6

Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…

Spot on, Miracles. Gohan is meant to be the strongest. In terms of power and potential he is basically meant to be the Anakin Skywalker of Dragon Ball.. though unlike Anakin Gohan never went evil. Tori balances it by having Gohan not train and slack off so Goku (and later Vegeta) can remain in the spotlight, but the moment Gohans trauma and rage reach a peak due to either his Dad(from Raditz hurting him) or him thinking Piccolo might die as examples, he explodes into insane power again and eclipses everyone. It's been the theme for Gohan literally since his introduction. He quite literally is the one mortal being with the most and highest hidden power and potential and this is exactly as Toriyama wanted it.

[Mr Perfect Cell]

I just wanted to demonstrate why I believe Gohan is actually strongest; Greater than Broly, according to the totality of the narrative in context. Which gives Toriyama's statement about Gohan being stronger than anyone meaning.



Piccolo says in DBS: Super Hero that Gohan can be the strongest "in this world."




Even in the original Dragonball manga, In context Toriyama's this world/the world means among every fighter in the universe...

Chapter: 410 (DBZ 216), P6.3

Context: after Gohan beats Cell up
Cell: “Unbelievable..! To think that someone like this could exist in this world…I’m completely losing in terms of power…But a battle’s outcome is a different matter…”


Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P4.4-6

Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…

That statement by piccolo gave me Saiyan saga flashbacks

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Is Anime!Goku superior to Manga!Goku? Surely they start the same in Battle of Gods even as Super Saiyan Gods, but then Anime absorbs SSJG, and even if it’s retconned he’s still pretty strong in some episodes… and then the anime also has the limit breaking stuff the manga rarely does.

If Beerus and co. are also the same in both mediums, this could also explain how Jiren or Vegetto Blue are much bigger deals in the anime. The start and ending points for Goku are the same, but anime Goku improved faster and caught up to Beerus first with UI. Manga Goku got UI, but wasn’t getting stronger every fight and needs some extra sagas to close the gap.

[ZombieVito]

Is Anime!Goku superior to Manga!Goku? Surely they start the same in Battle of Gods even as Super Saiyan Gods, but then Anime absorbs SSJG, and even if it’s retconned he’s still pretty strong in some episodes… and then the anime also has the limit breaking stuff the manga rarely does.

If Beerus and co. are also the same in both mediums, this could also explain how Jiren or Vegetto Blue are much bigger deals in the anime. The start and ending points for Goku are the same, but anime Goku improved faster and caught up to Beerus first with UI. Manga Goku got UI, but wasn’t getting stronger every fight and needs some extra sagas to close the gap.

I guess? Base Goku is still very strong in the manga since he withstood that GoD roar while all Kaioshins fainted.

[Koitsukai]

Is Anime!Goku superior to Manga!Goku? Surely they start the same in Battle of Gods even as Super Saiyan Gods, but then Anime absorbs SSJG, and even if it’s retconned he’s still pretty strong in some episodes… and then the anime also has the limit breaking stuff the manga rarely does.

If Beerus and co. are also the same in both mediums, this could also explain how Jiren or Vegetto Blue are much bigger deals in the anime. The start and ending points for Goku are the same, but anime Goku improved faster and caught up to Beerus first with UI. Manga Goku got UI, but wasn’t getting stronger every fight and needs some extra sagas to close the gap.

By the time the anime ended, I'd say AnimeGoku destroys MangaGoku.
AnimeGoku had SSG in his base form, and even though they dialed it down, he was seen sparring with Buu arc-level characters, while MangaGoku only has going on for him being above Shin's level, who's not even clear where he is at, not to mention the whole SS2 Trunks situation that places his SS2 somewhat above his Buu arc's. Everything seen by base AnimeGoku would surpass manga Goku's base, and probably even his SS2 too. But definitely above Base MangaGoku.

By now, I'd say they are equals. Training with two angels and learning to use the UI principles in his base form made his base form almost on part with Vegeta's SS. Whatever gap there was between both mediums should be closed by now.
The most logical take would be that EoZ Goku turns out being as strong as a SS3 in his base form, but that ship has sailed I think.

[Yuji]

Angels, Fusions and GoDs aside, would this be an accurate top 20 ranking of the current strongest characters, dead or alive? Manga only scaling.

1. Gohan Beast
2. Black Freeza
3. LSS Broly, as of Superhero
4. Cell Max
5./6. UI Goku/ UE Vegeta
7. Gas
8. Granolah
9. Angel Moro
10. Merus, provided he keeps his strength and techniques as a mortal
11. Orange Piccolo
12. Jiren, as of the ToP
13. Merged Zamasu (only fusion here for being permanent)
14./15. Gamma 1/2
16. Hit, as of the ToP
17. Majin Boo, provided he kept the Grand Kaioshin boost
18. Toppo, as of the ToP
19. SSR Goku Black
20. Saganbo, Moro-amped

Honorable mentions to Kefla, #17 and #18 which would probably slot in afterwards, followed by 73. Anyone I'm missing?

[Mr Baggins]

Anyone I'm missing?

Kid Goku/Raditz, UI Shaggy, El Hermano and Monaka.

Jests aside, your list is largely the same as mine up until after Angel Moro; I think you have Saganbo too low, Fused Zamasu and Hit too high, and Kefla too underrated if she's below Black. But a lot of Super's "Blue tier" scaling is ambiguous and murky anyway, so it's all good. Merus is too unknown to rank.

Dyspo is a solid honorable mention, but we rarely see him fight in the manga so it's totally understandable that one might miss him.

[ZombieVito]

Angels, Fusions and GoDs aside, would this be an accurate top 20 ranking of the current strongest characters, dead or alive? Manga only scaling.

1. Gohan Beast
2. Black Freeza
3. LSS Broly, as of Superhero
4. Cell Max
5./6. UI Goku/ UE Vegeta
7. Gas
8. Granolah
9. Angel Moro
10. Merus, provided he keeps his strength and techniques as a mortal
11. Orange Piccolo
12. Jiren, as of the ToP
13. Merged Zamasu (only fusion here for being permanent)
14./15. Gamma 1/2
16. Hit, as of the ToP
17. Majin Boo, provided he kept the Grand Kaioshin boost
18. Toppo, as of the ToP
19. SSR Goku Black
20. Saganbo, Moro-amped

Honorable mentions to Kefla, #17 and #18 which would probably slot in afterwards, followed by 73. Anyone I'm missing?

Piccolo should be at number 7.
Gammas and Sanganbo are stronger than Zamasu.
Boo was said to be weaker than SSB so Toppo should be higher.
17 should replace Goku Black and be higher than Boo.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Angels, Fusions and GoDs aside, would this be an accurate top 20 ranking of the current strongest characters, dead or alive? Manga only scaling.

1. Gohan Beast
2. Black Freeza
3. LSS Broly, as of Superhero
4. Cell Max
5./6. UI Goku/ UE Vegeta
7. Gas
8. Granolah
9. Angel Moro
10. Merus, provided he keeps his strength and techniques as a mortal
11. Orange Piccolo
12. Jiren, as of the ToP
13. Merged Zamasu (only fusion here for being permanent)
14./15. Gamma 1/2
16. Hit, as of the ToP
17. Majin Boo, provided he kept the Grand Kaioshin boost
18. Toppo, as of the ToP
19. SSR Goku Black
20. Saganbo, Moro-amped

Honorable mentions to Kefla, #17 and #18 which would probably slot in afterwards, followed by 73. Anyone I'm missing?

Why are the Gammas so high? Gohan hasn’t trained that much, so he’s probably still below Saganbo. Majin Boo was also said to be much weaker than the PSSJBs, so I doubt he’s above Toppo.


Gohan vs Freeza could go either way for me. Right now, I think it would be anticlimatic if Gohan surpassed Freeza so easily. So I think he’s merely above Goku and Vegeta. Not sure if he’s stronger than Gas, but I think I’ll give the Heeter an advantage if taking into account his corpse state.

I have no idea of how the series will handle Broly, so he’s going to be out of the list. Going by Super Hero, he’s contending for 2nd place with Gas. Everything else, he’s down between Moro and Jiren.

Transformations not noted, strongest form for every character (Moro is UI):

1. Freeza
2. Gas
3. Gohan
4. Cell Max
5. Vegeta (Slightly better than Goku in skill as per their fight)
6. Goku
7. Granolah
8. Merus
9. Piccolo (= Moro Saga UI. Distinguished from Merus and Moro based on skill and stamina)
10. Moro
11. Jiren
12. Saganbo
13/14. Gamma 1/2
15. Toppo
16. Android 17
17. Kefla
18. Merged Zamasu (No immortality)
19. Majin Boo
20. Goku Black

Honorable mentions: Dyspo.

Dyspo is a solid honorable mention, but we rarely see him fight in the manga so it's totally understandable that one might miss him.

How strong do you think he is? Toppo smashes SSJ3 Goku while fighting with a “mortal” Ki and only activates his God Ki in response to Goku going SSJG. It seems like he did a power up, akin to Goku’s transformation.

Point being, Ningen Toppo is most likely weaker than Super Saiyan God, and I doubt Dyspo is stronger than this Toppo. Maybe he’s faster, but the manga is vague about his super speed.

I guess? Base Goku is still very strong in the manga since he withstood that GoD roar while all Kaioshins fainted.

Sure, but that’s a very meh feat compared to Anime Goku fighting Majin Boo and Copy Vegeta vs Gotenks.

[Mr Baggins]

How strong do you think he is?

Stronger than any of the Pride Troopers except for Toppo and Jiren, as he tells Cabba. He's also able to hold his own against 17 for a bit off-screen, though that might be more attributable to his speed gimmick. If he's anything like his anime equivalent, his strength is probably augmented by his speed.

I dunno if I'd put his raw power in god tier, but he's definitely remarkable enough as a fighter to place 3rd on his own team.

[ankokudaishogun]

Is Anime!Goku superior to Manga!Goku?

BoG\RoF: i'll skip them because there is a mess about Goku's base level.

• U6 Saga: Anime is stronger due Kaiohken
• Future Saga: Manga is stronger due Complete Blue, as Anime Goku couldn't really use Kaiohken in any reliable way.
  I suppose there is an argument to give about "Base Blue" Anime Goku MIGHT be stronger than "Base Blue" Manga Goku, as the Anime SSB seems to not have the same drawbacks than Manga SSB(plus giving "perfect ki control"). Or at least they are much less significant.
• ToP: Anime is stronger due being able to reliably use Kaiohken x20. And Anime UI is a limit-breaking form that put him on the same level as Anime Jiren who NO WAY IN HELL is any weaker than a full power GoD, while Manga UI is "just" about effectiveness and efficiency.
• post-ToP is impossible to say because we have no sufficiently direct comparison.
  Personally I'd say anything less than Giant Aura UI is not on the same level as Anime UI, but anime UI was an exception and not regular power.
  I think Manga Goku surpassed Anime Goku once he got able to use UI at will, or at least UI-Sign.

If Beerus and co. are also the same in both mediums, this could also explain how Jiren or Vegetto Blue are much bigger deals in the anime.

Vegetto is not really much of a different deal in the anime than the manga. Both get suggested by Shin being at least on Beerus' level.

Jiren, otherwise, is not linked directly to Beerus.

• In the manga, Quitela is the GoD that defeated Beerus at arm wrestling.
  Belmod's power is unclear as he kept it hidden in the GoDs Rumble fight.
  Toppo specifies Jiren is better in Martial Ability=better Martial Artist than Belmod.
• in the anime, Belmod is the GoD that is stronger, no "just at arm wrestling" excuse given, than Beerus.
  And Jiren is stated being flat-out stronger than Belmod, no nitpicking about martial prowess.
  
  Thus Beerus can easily be the same regardless Jiren's actual power.
  

  I dunno if I'd put his raw power in god tier, but he's definitely remarkable enough as a fighter to place 3rd on his own team.

  I think SSGod-class would fit him pretty well. Perhaps somehow weaker in the "pure power" department, but with speed compensating.
  With Lightspeed Mode moving him to Blue-class even in the power department.

[Yuji]

Manga Goku never absorbed SSG's essence into his base or Super Saiyan forms so by the time U6 comes around he's only marginally stronger than his Boo arc self.

Even if you believe the God essence absorption eventually got retconned in the anime, or believe in the two base theory, the anime version can amp himself up to 10/20x via Kaioken and has also had multiple more training arcs and near-death powerups.

[ZombieVito]

Manga Goku never absorbed SSG's essence into his base or Super Saiyan forms so by the time U6 comes around he's only marginally stronger than his Boo arc self.

Even if you believe the God essence absorption eventually got retconned in the anime, or believe in the two base theory, the anime version can amp himself up to 10/20x via Kaioken and has also had multiple more training arcs and near-death powerups.

Base Goku is literally shown to be stronger than the Kaioshins in the manga.