Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 91 - Official Discussion Thread

[Zephyr]

This chapter was the most enjoyable the manga has been for me in a long time. Which is kind of awkward given that it's largely a retelling rather than anything original. Maybe it's because I enjoyed the film more than I've been enjoying the manga's stories post-ToP, or maybe it's because the pace is finally quickened back up. Could be a combination of the two.

[Mr Baggins]

Krillin vs Dr. Hedo's bug is honestly crazy. You mean to tell me that this same bug is way stronger than 90% of characters from the Namek Arc?

I mean... that's the whole context of the scene. There's a reason that when Hachimaru re-activates itself and takes out Kuririn, it's interpolated with Hedo saying that it's foolish to question the power of his androids. Then he goes on to say his goal is to create the strongest ones to have ever existed in the universe.

If the Gammas can compete with god tiers, the bug droid can easily pack enough of a punch to beat an Earthling like Kuririn. No issue there.

It's also pretty funny.

[Cipher]

Krillin vs Dr. Hedo's bug is honestly crazy. You mean to tell me that this same bug is way stronger than 90% of characters from the Namek Arc?

I mean... that's the whole context of the scene. There's a reason that when Hachimaru re-activates itself and takes out Kuririn, it's interpolated with Hedo saying that it's foolish to question the power of his androids. Then he goes on to say his goal is to create the strongest ones to have ever existed in the universe.

If the Gammas can compete with god tiers, the bug droid can easily pack enough of a punch to beat an Earthling like Kuririn. No issue there.

It's also pretty funny.

I’ve seen people take issue with this, but I also agree that it feels just fine in context. Dr. Hedo has already created crude androids out of corpses that required Super Saiyan to beat, and is just some months away from creating androids to rival Super Saiyan Blue. He can build something that can defeat Kuririn even if it’s based on a bug. It also has a one-hit-kill attack.

For the chapter as a whole, I also found this really enjoyable, and would be really intrigued and happy with the pacing of the chapter were I unaware of where it was going. I’ll be happy to have this in here on re-reads, and it already feels a little more consequential than the clearly episodic Goten and Trunks chapters. Really, the only bad thing I have to say about it is what’s already a given—that it’s not new content and this not as exciting as it could be on first pass. I suspect it’ll read well in the end though, and in terms of the overall structure of the series, just after Granolah feels like a good time for this kind of broad cast catch-up on Earth.

In a lot of ways though, and mostly good ones, this really does feel like the TV-adjacent arcs.

[LightBing]

Seem like this will be a faithful retelling adding very little. Disappointing.

Kuririn and the police angle seemed interesting, shame how it went nowhere. It added absolutely nothing to the story, besides continuing the plot about how the justice system is incompetent in the Dragon World.

It's also sad how Trunks and Goten don't even appear. Their motivations and struggles to be heroes are reduced to their mothers punishment which doesn't even deserve more consideration than a bubble speech, likely to never be mentioned again.

It really shows how there was no interest in the characters, it was all to "fill the time".

[omaro34]

We had a hiatus for 3 or 4 months, and now its just rehashing material we've already seen. I get it but kinda sucks tbh.

[JulieYBM]

We had a hiatus for 3 or 4 months, and now its just rehashing material we've already seen. I get it but kinda sucks tbh.

Goodness forbid I defend a comic that I think is overall baaaaaad but let us bare in mind that those four months were likely spend letting the staff actually rest. Furthermore, it's not like this chapter required zero effort. Toyo-tarou still had to draw the thing and include new story and character details. That's not exactly easy, especially if you're probably worn down from years of overwork like everyone in the Japanese comics industry is.

[Brettjr25]

Krillin vs Dr. Hedo's bug is honestly crazy. You mean to tell me that this same bug is way stronger than 90% of characters from the Namek Arc?

I mean... that's the whole context of the scene. There's a reason that when Hachimaru re-activates itself and takes out Kuririn, it's interpolated with Hedo saying that it's foolish to question the power of his androids. Then he goes on to say his goal is to create the strongest ones to have ever existed in the universe.

If the Gammas can compete with god tiers, the bug droid can easily pack enough of a punch to beat an Earthling like Kuririn. No issue there.

It's also pretty funny.

Nothing to see here, just standard power scaling issues.

This reminds me how people pointed out that Gero, a human from earth was so smart and capable that he created androids that would've easily beat the snot of the long standing tyrannical so called emperor of the universe, Freeza.

[ankokudaishogun]

So. This is absolutely Toyotaro using somebody else's storyboard, ie: the Movie.
Which is good, because Toyo's paneling and storyboarding is bad.

The additions were nice enough, though I much preferred the movie version of Magenta and Hedo's chat, especially the "real time" recording of Frieza's death.

Plus have they always used "Hercule" for Satan?


I'm not expecting much from this, being simply an adaptation of Super Hero. I'm curious to see what details they are going to change\add though. Will Toyotaro manage to fuckup even something already well-balanced as Super Hero?

[Yuji]

Toyotarou is a lot more concerned over the logistics and continuity of character transformations and powerups, so if I expect any major new information is on how Gohan and Piccolo acquired the new forms, what they are, and what kind of drawbacks (he sure loves those) they have. Maybe with some luck we get some scenes of Goku/Vegeta/Broly training in their stronger forms in Beerus' planet.

I don't expect much fleshing out of the movie beyond this based on this chapter. At this rate, 3-4 chapters and we're done. The bulk of the exposition has been covered. One more chapter of Piccolo sneaking into the base, and then two or three more action-oriented chapters to cap things off. Seems like he's stalling for time for a big announcement in the summer.

[Lance Freeman]

Toyotarou is a lot more concerned over the logistics and continuity of character transformations and powerups, so if I expect any major new information is on how Gohan and Piccolo acquired the new forms, what they are, and what kind of drawbacks (he sure loves those) they have. Maybe with some luck we get some scenes of Goku/Vegeta/Broly training in their stronger forms in Beerus' planet.

I don't expect much fleshing out of the movie beyond this based on this chapter. At this rate, 3-4 chapters and we're done. The bulk of the exposition has been covered. One more chapter of Piccolo sneaking into the base, and then two or three more action-oriented chapters to cap things off. Seems like he's stalling for time for a big announcement in the summer.

Yeah, this feels like a filler arc while he and Toriyama hash out the details of the Frieza Black arc, which might very well be the end of the Super manga.

[EGonzo]

Toyotarou is a lot more concerned over the logistics and continuity of character transformations and powerups, so if I expect any major new information is on how Gohan and Piccolo acquired the new forms, what they are, and what kind of drawbacks (he sure loves those) they have. Maybe with some luck we get some scenes of Goku/Vegeta/Broly training in their stronger forms in Beerus' planet.

I don't expect much fleshing out of the movie beyond this based on this chapter. At this rate, 3-4 chapters and we're done. The bulk of the exposition has been covered. One more chapter of Piccolo sneaking into the base, and then two or three more action-oriented chapters to cap things off. Seems like he's stalling for time for a big announcement in the summer.

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say the drawbacks of Orange and Beast are something Toyo's never done before: stamina drain

[sangofe]

This was a mostly boring read. Maybe it's because I've watched the movie twice. I thought the add ons with kuririn were boring but very good with Pan and Piccolo. I wonder if they'll follow this story should they ever make a TV anime of Super Super Hero.

[The Monkey King]

My God at this point I just want Dragon Ball Super in its entirety to end.

Every time it gets some momentum and some hype from the larger portion of the fanbase it squanders it every single time.

Case in point this arc... what the hell is the point? Who asked for a manga recap of a movie most Dragon Ball fans have seen?

I remember fans being hyped about a potential "Black Freeza Arc" at the end of the Granolah saga, this was 8 months ago and Freeza hasn't been back since.

But instead we've had a hiatus (well deserved don't get me wrong, other mangaka should do this), a prequel to Super Hero, of which the main selling point was Goten and Trunks being Superheroes but that's been handwaved away in a single panel once the movie retelling started.

By the time this recap has done it will have been a year since the Granolah arc ended, and will we see a "Black Freeza Arc" then? I highly doubt it at this point.

Solely on the basis that current DBS has no interest in satisfying fans, just look at DBS Super Hero, a vanity project where Toei actively ignored just how much fans loved Shintani's work to make it CGI, a decision that even pissed off senior animators. And jingled keys in front of fans face with "Gohan Beast" the whole thing was "remember cell? remember the androids? SSJ2 Gohan?" a transparently lazy rehash.

But to be fair to Toriyama, his initial vision of having Piccolo as the sole protagonist would've avoided the rehash complaints entirely.

[Miracles]

My God at this point I just want Dragon Ball Super in its entirety to end.

Every time it gets some momentum and some hype from the larger portion of the fanbase it squanders it every single time.

Case in point this arc... what the hell is the point? Who asked for a manga recap of a movie most Dragon Ball fans have seen?

I remember fans being hyped about a potential "Black Freeza Arc" at the end of the Granolah saga, this was 8 months ago and Freeza hasn't been back since.

But instead we've had a hiatus (well deserved don't get me wrong, other mangaka should do this), a prequel to Super Hero, of which the main selling point was Goten and Trunks being Superheroes but that's been handwaved away in a single panel once the movie retelling started.

By the time this recap has done it will have been a year since the Granolah arc ended, and will we see a "Black Freeza Arc" then? I highly doubt it at this point.

Solely on the basis that current DBS has no interest in satisfying fans, just look at DBS Super Hero, a vanity project where Toei actively ignored just how much fans loved Shintani's work to make it CGI, a decision that even pissed off senior animators. And jingled keys in front of fans face with "Gohan Beast" the whole thing was "remember cell? remember the androids? SSJ2 Gohan?" a transparently lazy rehash.

But to be fair to Toriyama, his initial vision of having Piccolo as the sole protagonist would've avoided the rehash complaints entirely.

You know what, I like where you are coming from.

[YamiGoku]

I think the heads of this franchise know/think they can give DB fans bottom of the barrel shit and we will still eat it, they watch the sells of merchandising and the gacha games doing so good with so little effort that they dont care about improving, for them we are sheep that consume and will keep consuming no matter what, so whats the point of putting more effort in the Manga/Anime?

What really makes me Mad is not just the lack of respect for the fans, but the lack of respect for DB as a franchise, DB is a big money maker for a reason, even bigger than monsters like One Piece on its prime, but unlike One Piece, I dont feel even a fraction of that love/care from Toei/shueisha, I know One Piece deserves that love, But, DB is also big and is the OG, you cold give it at least some respect.

[Zephyr]

Solely on the basis that current DBS has no interest in satisfying fans, just look at DBS Super Hero, a vanity project where Toei actively ignored just how much fans loved Shintani's work to make it CGI, a decision that even pissed off senior animators. And jingled keys in front of fans face with "Gohan Beast" the whole thing was "remember cell? remember the androids? SSJ2 Gohan?" a transparently lazy rehash.

I'm confused by the bolded statement existing in the same paragraph as all of the italicized fanservice.

[The Monkey King]

I'm confused by the bolded statement existing in the same paragraph as all of the italicized fanservice.

I meant what I said insofar as satisfying fans with anything of genuine substance or value.

As Gohan Beast is the ugliest, most creatively bankrupt transformation Toriyama has ever put to paper.
It has had little cultural impact on the DB Fandom at large, compare the reaction to Goku attaining UI to Beast Gohan, fans largely agree that the former is one of most impactful moments in DB history, meanwhile nobody is saying that about the latter.
Most fans see it for the shameless SSJ2 Gohan rehash that it is, it's on the same level of cheap, worthless fan service as "Ikari Trunks"
Fans still don't know what the hell it is and Toriyama doesn't even bother to give it a good explanation since it doesn't even make any sense as a concept.
Most of the time people talk about it it's to make fun of just how stupid it looks, usually accompanied by this picture:



If Beast Gohan was supposed to satisfy fans then it failed spectacularly.

[FortuneSSJ]

That's because Gohan Beast is the ugliest, most creatively bankrupt transformation Toriyama has ever put to paper.
It has had little cultural impact on the DB Fandom at large, compare the reaction to Goku attaining UI to Beast Gohan, fans largely agree that the former is one of most impactful moments in DB history, meanwhile nobody is saying that about the latter.

Different context. UI happened in a tv series and had build up since when Goku/Vegeta started to train under Whis.
All the movie forms (SSG, SSB, Ultimate Piccolo, Orange Piccolo, Gohan Beast) came from nowhere and nobody says any of those forms are some of most impactful moments in DB history. And that's ok because they are not supposed to be.

SSJ Goku, SSJ2 Gohan, UI Goku... Those are the ones that are supposed to be the most impactful, because all of them had build up and fans were expecting them to happen.

[JulieYBM]

Gohan Beast is so ugly because it's likely meant to make fun of Cell arc fans of Gohan. That, of course, makes it a good transformation.

[Zephyr]

Gohan Beast is so ugly because it's likely meant to make fun of Cell arc fans of Gohan. That, of course, makes it a good transformation.

Exactly. It took a cool hairstyle and exaggerated it to the point that it looks silly, thus occupying the same aesthetic niche as Super Saiyan 3. They're both microcosms of what makes me love Dragon Ball so much: a funny story that started trying to be cool and badass, succeeded at that, and then finally used the cool and badass shit to be funny again, while still somehow managing to look cool doing it. Each element feeding into and informing the other.

I'm also pro-Toriyama not just taking the piss out of his own relatively-serious tropes and material, but of fans of said material. In this case, as a fan of Gohan's Cell Games transformation, I'm on the receiving end and still loving it.

I'm confused by the bolded statement existing in the same paragraph as all of the italicized fanservice.

I meant what I said insofar as satisfying fans with anything of genuine substance or value.
...
If Beast Gohan was supposed to satisfy fans then it failed spectacularly.

I mean, fair enough. Speaking as a Dragon Ball fan, though, I was plenty satisfied. I can't speak for the past version of myself who got hooked on Dragon Ball in the first place, or the past version of myself who finished watching/reading it, but I can speak for my current self who continues to come back to it. There are two things that keep me coming back:
1. the funnies, from isolated gags, to elaborate name-pun systems, to parodying other works as well as itself
2. the story of Goku's growth as a martial artist, the "poison" that this growth has unwittingly cultivated, the rivalries that this "poison" has birthed, and the character development that these rivalries provide for said rivals

I couldn't care less about the story of Gohan's growth as a martial artist, so Beast did nothing for me there (and, obviously, had nothing to do with Goku's story). But its design was definitely self-parody, which checks one of my two boxes. Is that box 'substantive'? Is comedy substantive? Parody? Self-parody? I don't know. But being the butt of a joke in this way was satisfying.