"Serious Goku" Comments on DB Youtube Clips

[WittyUsername]

Super Hero basically runs on fanservice so I think the post-credit scene is nothing more than a funny riff on the film's very nature

Other than Cell Max, the film feels like it's poking fun at fanservice.

What about Gohan and Piccolo’s new forms?

[ABED]

Super Hero basically runs on fanservice so I think the post-credit scene is nothing more than a funny riff on the film's very nature

Other than Cell Max, the film feels like it's poking fun at fanservice.

What about Gohan and Piccolo’s new forms?

I can't recall Gohan specifically, but Piccolo's new form being achieved through the Dragon Balls like a cheat feels as though it's spitting in the face of fanservice. It comes via the laziest way possible and as a lark.

The film itself is sufficiently silly so that the callbacks don't feel like they're the point of it all like Resurrection 'F' was. It feels like so many get hung up on stuff like Red Ribbon and the transformations, they miss the really sweet relationship between Piccolo, Pan, and Gohan. It feels fresh. Even the antagonist, while it's the RRA, there's still a fresh spin on it.

[super michael]

Let make this clear Goku wanted to win the Martial Art Tournament in the 23rd Martial Art Tournament, there is nothing wrong in that. Goku didn't want to get DQ at all.

There's nothing wrong with that other than Goku's risking the fate of the world by refusing outside help just to prove he could win a tournament.

Goku going to Zeno that was wrong, since he knew what Zeno was capable of doing. Goku accelerated the Universe being in danger.

Zeno was just going to wipe out universes that had low moral rankings. Goku suggesting a tournament ended up being a good thing.

Goku wasn't at fault for Dr Gero creating the Androids. He may have left Dr Gero to create alone to create the Androids, however by Goku own words Dr Gero hasn't done anything wrong at that present time.

Which was of course a load of horseshit as Dr.Gero was part of the Red Ribbon army. It was just an excuse to fight the Androids.

In the 23rd Martial Art Tournament, Goku not know what marriage is or what a hug is that doesn't make Goku dumb. He was never taught those thing.

He doesn't know what a hug is?

I can't believe I forgot that part of Goku and Grandpa Gohan.
I remember a member showing Goku reaction to Chi Chi hugging him, that is why I forgot.

Thanks for showing me the clip.


As for Zeno, Goku didn't go for the intention of saving the universe. That pure luck. Goku went with the intention of starting a tournament, regardless of the risk and warning being told and even threatened.

[ABED]

He didn't go there to create it or suggest it. The tournament was going to happen. It was already set by Zeno. Goku simply sped it up. Again, this is not new behavior for Goku. He has a history of doing exactly this - not taking into account the risk he puts people in for his love for battle.

[PurestEvil]

He didn't go there to create it or suggest it. The tournament was going to happen. It was already set by Zeno. Goku simply sped it up. Again, this is not new behavior for Goku. He has a history of doing exactly this - not taking into account the risk he puts people in for his love for battle.

This is the part that many fans seemed to forget. Zeno first mentioned a multiversal tournament just after the U6 tournament ended. When Goku made the suggestion to him later, he was simply reminding him of it. How can Goku be responsible for "risking lives" when Zeno was the one who came up with the idea?

[90sDBZ]

He didn't go there to create it or suggest it. The tournament was going to happen. It was already set by Zeno. Goku simply sped it up. Again, this is not new behavior for Goku. He has a history of doing exactly this - not taking into account the risk he puts people in for his love for battle.

This is the part that many fans seemed to forget. Zeno first mentioned a multiversal tournament just after the U6 tournament ended. When Goku made the suggestion to him later, he was simply reminding him of it. How can Goku be responsible for "risking lives" when Zeno was the one who came up with the idea?

To be fair, I think it was implied Zeno had forgotten about it, or at least that's what everyone other than Goku was hoping.

[Vegard Aune]

The post-credits scene very much reads like a gag to me. In fact I find it hard to even fathom seeing it as anything else. It's like "Hoooray, Vegeta defeated Kakarot!!! ...in a training match... that went on for hours... just barely... in a completely irrelevant side plot... when a legit crisis was happening on Earth that they totally could have stopped before anything bad happened if they had been there..."

He didn't go there to create it or suggest it. The tournament was going to happen. It was already set by Zeno. Goku simply sped it up. Again, this is not new behavior for Goku. He has a history of doing exactly this - not taking into account the risk he puts people in for his love for battle.

This is the part that many fans seemed to forget. Zeno first mentioned a multiversal tournament just after the U6 tournament ended. When Goku made the suggestion to him later, he was simply reminding him of it. How can Goku be responsible for "risking lives" when Zeno was the one who came up with the idea?

To be fair, I think it was implied Zeno had forgotten about it, or at least that's what everyone other than Goku was hoping.

He had forgotten about the idea of holding a tournament... He was, however, pretty much set on just wiping out most of the universes anyway. (It is really incredibly messed up to me how the Omni-King is just, like, completely uninterested in the lives of the people beneath him and, at least going by the manga idr if this line was in the anime, perfectly willing to just wipe quadrilions of lives from existence just because he personally feels there's a bit too much stuff to keep track of.)

[WittyUsername]

He had forgotten about the idea of holding a tournament... He was, however, pretty much set on just wiping out most of the universes anyway. (It is really incredibly messed up to me how the Omni-King is just, like, completely uninterested in the lives of the people beneath him and, at least going by the manga idr if this line was in the anime, perfectly willing to just wipe quadrilions of lives from existence just because he personally feels there's a bit too much stuff to keep track of.)

The anime did at least try to rectify this by revealing that the Tournament of Power was all a test where the winner was expected to use the Super Dragon Balls to bring back the erased universes, but of course, no such revelation exists in the manga, which means it wasn’t part of Toriyama’s outline.

On another note, the anime has that weird thing where it’s implied that Freeza intends to overthrow the gods, which obviously hasn’t gone anyway. The idea of a character who opposes the gods is a pretty interesting concept, but unfortunately, SDBH has already wasted that concept with Hearts, so I’m guessing it’s unlikely to show up in the actual series.

[ABED]

Thank you all for confirming this because I didn't want it to be the Mandela Effect.

[90sDBZ]

He had forgotten about the idea of holding a tournament... He was, however, pretty much set on just wiping out most of the universes anyway. (It is really incredibly messed up to me how the Omni-King is just, like, completely uninterested in the lives of the people beneath him and, at least going by the manga idr if this line was in the anime, perfectly willing to just wipe quadrilions of lives from existence just because he personally feels there's a bit too much stuff to keep track of.)

Yes he was planning to erase the universes before Goku reminded him of the tournament.

But this doesn't make Goku's behaviour any less reckless. He had no idea what Zeno was thinking, but still pushed for the tournament despite repeated warnings and having seen Trunks lose his world. The fact that the tournament prevented everything from being lost was a lucky coincidence that nobody could have predicted.

[dva_raza]

I don't think the post-credit scene is an example of Vegetabro pandering, it's more about mocking how utterly played out the Goku/Vegeta rivalry has become. Vegeta fans can share his catharsis at finally getting a win, but the joke is that it's a pathetic, meaningless victory from attrition. Beerus, Whis and Cheelai don't even care.

It is by no means that deep.

The scene is a fanservice. Meaning, Vegeta fans want Vegeta win. They wrote a scene to make it happen.

I don’t see what it being self-aware has to do with whether it's pandering.

It’s a bit of fanservice, sure, but it’s also a joke at Vegeta’s expense. If he utterly wrecked Goku with Ultra Ego rather than scrape an anticlimactic win by the absolute skin of his teeth, it would be a more obvious example of pandering. I mean, does Vegeta really come off looking much better than Goku? He also falls down two seconds after Whis declares he’s the winner winner chicken dinner.

?

The definition of fanservice is: The inclusion in a work of fiction of material designed merely to excite the viewer.
That is it, it's a little thing to hype fans with something they want, so I don't know where you're getting a "bit" from.

Again, what does Vegeta’s silly win being a mockery of their silly rivalry (or a joke, or anticlimactic, unimpressive, etc) have anything to do with whether it was pandering?

Just trying to understand if you romantizing a cheap fanservice is just some devil's advocate rambling or if you actually have a point.

You and abed agreeing that meditation scene bad, but then going out of your way with mental gymnastics to say it WASN’T done for pandering though ..uh, ok. Then what was Goku's regressing done for?

Yes, it is clearly a joke at the expense of the audience, which is why Broly and Lemo are crying as representations of the average fan. It was a hand-to-hand fight with no Ki blasts or transformations that Vegeta won by being slightly more durable. It's hardly a an impressive victory.

May I ask who doesn’t know this and what does this have to do with the issue of Goku getting fucked over in favor of Vegeta pandering?

I’m confused about why the thread suddenly turned into this pointing out the obvious echochamber. Like, no shit. It was not a serious battle. It was a game/exercise, silly, pitiful, meaningless, etc... Which Vegeta won. And which fans are bragging about. And which happened thanks to Vegeta excelling at doing what Goku knew how to do before Vegeta was even created because as it turned out, no actually he didn’t apparently. Which is why fans complained. Which is what the thread is about. So I dunno why people are going on about how the fight/win was impressive or not.

At this point I'm hoping that's what that is and Goku does in fact know what meditation is, he was just having fun.

You're saying Toyotaro might come out with the twist that it was all just an act, including Goku’s reaction to Vegeta explaining meditation?

[dva_raza]

I don't entirely agree with dva_raza that the whole thing is some kind of intentional conspiracy to make Goku look worse than Vegeta

Fucking what?

I wouldn’t agree myself with something as moronic as what you just put in my mouth, I hope that's clear.
That’s some bizarre takeaway of what I’ve said dude. Like can you quote whatever remotely sounded like there’s a plan to intentionally fuck Goku over?

I said it’s a Vegeta fanservice. And that they farted out a nonsensical scene which downgrades Goku along with making other elements look redundant, to facilitate Vegeta winning the challenge, to make his fans happy, which it did.

And I said that's cheap and wrong.

How did you translate "pandering to Vegeta fans" into "conspiracy to intentionally make Goku look worse"?
Goku isn’t the emphasis or motivation. And not sure why you’d qualify writing a poor scene to throw a bone to the whiny crowd as a “conspiracy”.

What the fuck.

[Scientist Fu]

He had forgotten about the idea of holding a tournament... He was, however, pretty much set on just wiping out most of the universes anyway. (It is really incredibly messed up to me how the Omni-King is just, like, completely uninterested in the lives of the people beneath him and, at least going by the manga idr if this line was in the anime, perfectly willing to just wipe quadrilions of lives from existence just because he personally feels there's a bit too much stuff to keep track of.)

Yes he was planning to erase the universes before Goku reminded him of the tournament.

But this doesn't make Goku's behaviour any less reckless. He had no idea what Zeno was thinking, but still pushed for the tournament despite repeated warnings and having seen Trunks lose his world. The fact that the tournament prevented everything from being lost was a lucky coincidence that nobody could have predicted.

I mean, being reckless is nothing new for Goku, is it? he did crazy things back then by giving a senzu bean to Cell, for example. What he did is obviously wrong, but that's how the character is designed...

[ABED]

It's not just the character, it's the world itself. I go back to the line from the Elder Kaioshin about finishing Gohan's power up 5 minutes prior to telling him for the sake of making the moment more dramatic.

[LoganForkHands73]

?

The definition of fanservice is: The inclusion in a work of fiction of material designed merely to excite the viewer.
That is it, it's a little thing to hype fans with something they want, so I don't know where you're getting a "bit" from.

Again, what does Vegeta’s silly win being a mockery of their silly rivalry (or a joke, or anticlimactic, unimpressive, etc) have anything to do with whether it was pandering?

Just trying to understand if you romantizing a cheap fanservice is just some devil's advocate rambling or if you actually have a point.

You and abed agreeing that meditation scene bad, but then going out of your way with mental gymnastics to say it WASN’T done for pandering though ..uh, ok. Then what was Goku's regressing done for?

Whatever, man, there’s literally nothing worth anrguing about here. I acknowledged it was fanservicey, but I don’t agree that it’s pandering specifically to Vegeta fans because it was barely a victory for Vegeta and the film acknowledges that in a tongue in cheek manner. It gave fans something they wanted to see in an intentionally back-handed, anticlimactic way. If it was more of an “epic” and well-earned victory, then I’d be more inclined to call it pandering.

That’s it.

Fucking what?

I wouldn’t agree myself with something as moronic as what you just put in my mouth, I hope that's clear.
That’s some bizarre takeaway of what I’ve said dude. Like can you quote whatever remotely sounded like there’s a plan to intentionally fuck Goku over?

I said it’s a Vegeta fanservice. And that they farted out a nonsensical scene which downgrades Goku along with making other elements look redundant, to facilitate Vegeta winning the challenge, to make his fans happy, which it did.

And I said that's cheap and wrong.

How did you translate "pandering to Vegeta fans" into "conspiracy to intentionally make Goku look worse"?
Goku isn’t the emphasis or motivation. And not sure why you’d qualify writing a poor scene to throw a bone to the whiny crowd as a “conspiracy”.

What the fuck.

Okay, maybe you disagree with the exact wording there, but your POV is that the scene was done for a specific agenda of pandering to Vegeta fans, with Goku being used as collateral damage for that goal? If you don’t think making Goku look worse is the goal itself, fair enough, but that was my interpretation of your rants. Especially when you turn around and say this shit in your very same response:

May I ask who doesn’t know this and what does this have to do with the issue of Goku getting fucked over in favor of Vegeta pandering?

Whatever the case, I don’t see how you can take this much issue with what I’ve said. I’ve literally agreed with 99% of what you’ve said, I just have one minor disagreement.

I swear to god, you give people an inch of benefit of the doubt on this forum and this is what always happens…

[super michael]

In Dragon Ball Z Goku wasn't known for these things:

• Dropping his guard so down that he can't react

• Underestimating his enemies

• Getting annoyed for making smart decision, that has no consequence

• Getting annoyed for training without Goku

• Annoying a master so much, that the master wanted to refuse to train Goku

• Being totally clueless on someone identity and someone lies

In DBZ Goku took his battle serious, didn't hold back or hold a form back without a good reason. Kaioken = damage body or explode and SSJ3 = reduce time on earth.
In DBS he holds back and refuse to transform no matter the danger.

[kemuri07]

I mean, the elephant in the room in regards to this topic has always been:

DBZ is a stone cold classic while Super is kinda trash. That's really what it comes down to.

[Skar]

I think what was frustrating about these characters flaws for Goku is that they seem more like rookie mistakes and not something a seasoned martial artist would be doing this late in the story. This is years after he trained the half-Saiyans and a year before he goes off to train Uub. Not having him forget these lessons would have the same result since we assume he's going to relearn them by the end anyway.

[UpFromTheSkies]

I don't understand those comments, there were only a couple of times in Z when Goku got really serious.

[UpFromTheSkies]

In Dragon Ball Z Goku wasn't known for these things:

• Dropping his guard so down that he can't react

• Underestimating his enemies

• Getting annoyed for making smart decision, that has no consequence

• Getting annoyed for training without Goku

• Annoying a master so much, that the master wanted to refuse to train Goku

• Being totally clueless on someone identity and someone lies

In DBZ Goku took his battle serious, didn't hold back or hold a form back without a good reason. Kaioken = damage body or explode and SSJ3 = reduce time on earth.
In DBS he holds back and refuse to transform no matter the danger.

SSJ3 does reduce his time on earth, but he could have used it to defeat Majin Vegeta and then again Buu, which would have saved everyone from a lot of suffering. He could have also had everyone bum rush Cell but decided to play his game and have a fair fight instead, even giving him a senzu bean. Goku made stupid decisions all throughout Z because of his naive ideals or selfishness.