About how characters train in DBS

[super michael]

I just don't understand why characters in DBS training seems so weak, but their power gains are so great. I mean lets take a look at these examples:

Freeza - 4 months beating a weakling = stronger than SSB
Buu - training with Mr Satan a weakling = stronger than Base Goku
Master Roshi - Secret training = huge power boost
Tenshinhan - teachin weakling and trains with Chiaotzu only = huge power boost
Krillin - Gym training = huge power boost
C17 - Poachers only = SSB level


In Dragon Ball we saw how each masters trained their students and how the students struggled with their training. With Master Roshi as an example, just his mid morning training was tiring. That is something we don't see in DBS except Goku and Vegeta who trains hard.

Basically in Dragon Ball those that trained hard earned their powers, while in DBS anyone can gain huge power increase by weak training.
The only exception is the Pilaf Gang, who trains with Trunks but don't gain huge power boost.


These training exist but no one relies on them:

Train with Goku and Vegeta
Train with Whis and Beerus
Train with Piccolo (Nails + Kami)
Train on Yardrat
Train in the Gravity Chamber
Train in the ROSAT

[MasenkoHA]

Of those only 17 becoming as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku seems that contrived

Freeza never trained a day in his life, it's not that big of a leap for him to make massive gains in 4 months when he's already naturally strong and an adept martial artist.

Fat Boo was a fat sloth who was already one of the most powerful beings in the universe so not surprising when he finally got off his ass to train he would also become more powerful.


Tenshinhan, Krillin, and Muten Roshi are, admittingly, only there for fanservice (remember when fans used to bitch about those characters getting sidelined in Dragon Ball? Pepperidge Farm remembers) but they really only beat on fodder anyways. Roshi even mostly had to resort to using the Mafuba, which I had my own issues with how it was used in Super but eh.

[ABED]

You seem to look at training purely in terms of exposition, and not the dramatic purpose it serves.

[Yuji]

Outside of Freeza in F, none of the powerups in the manga seem too ridiculous.

I think folks should also come to terms with the idea the God forms aren't as ridiculously powerful as they once appeared. The difference between God and 3 seems to be around the 10x mark in the manga, with the difference between God and Blue around the 2-5x mark.

That fusion line in BoG really threw people off into thinking God was millions of times stronger than SS3 Goku but we've seen by Broly that base form and SS form fusions are ridiculously strong, so I don't even know if SSG Goku is stronger than SS Vegetto as it was previously thought, let alone SS3 Vegetto.

[super michael]

Of those only 17 becoming as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku seems that contrived

Freeza never trained a day in his life, it's not that big of a leap for him to make massive gains in 4 months when he's already naturally strong and an adept martial artist.

Fat Boo was a fat sloth who was already one of the most powerful beings in the universe so not surprising when he finally got off his ass to train he would also become more powerful.


Tenshinhan, Krillin, and Muten Roshi are, admittingly, only there for fanservice (remember when fans used to bitch about those characters getting sidelined in Dragon Ball? Pepperidge Farm remembers) but they really only beat on fodder anyways. Roshi even mostly had to resort to using the Mafuba, which I had my own issues with how it was used in Super but eh.

I don't have any problem with Freeza 4 months training. My problem is his training method, which was Tagoma weaker than the Ginyu Force.

Fat Buu might be a sloth, but that shouldn't be any good reason to gain huge power by training with Mr Satan who is a total weakling.

You seem to look at training purely in terms of exposition, and not the dramatic purpose it serves.

How a character trains should determine how much power they gain, at least that is how I view it. If we know how a master trains their students or how the location is, then it is no problem if the training is off-screen.


There are many ways how characters training can seem good and even creative, but the writers went with the worst writing possible.
Other anime be it martial arts or sports like football an example, we see the characters train hard.


Pilaf trains with Trunks, but he is a total weakling.

[ABED]

How a character trains should determine how much power they gain, at least that is how I view it. If we know how a master trains their students or how the location is, then it is no problem if the training is off-screen.

That's not how it works even in the real world. And again, you're more concerned with the explanation of a power increase when that's been inconsistent since the beginning. You're less concerned with the dramatic purpose of showing the training.

It's a story, not an RPG.

[super michael]

How a character trains should determine how much power they gain, at least that is how I view it. If we know how a master trains their students or how the location is, then it is no problem if the training is off-screen.

That's not how it works even in the real world. And again, you're more concerned with the explanation of a power increase when that's been inconsistent since the beginning. You're less concerned with the dramatic purpose of showing the training.

It's a story, not an RPG.

If it is no problem can you explain how that isn't how it works in real life? I assume those that trains with professionals, their skills and strength would increase more than training with amateurs or alone.

Those with state of the art equipment would and in good location, I assume would make better gains.

How was Dragon Ball inconsistent since the beginning?

[MasenkoHA]

Fat Buu might be a sloth, but that shouldn't be any good reason to gain huge power by training with Mr Satan who is a total weakling.

He didn't get stronger because he trained with Mr.Satan, he got stronger because he finally got some exercise for the first time in his life.

[ABED]

There are so many factors. Different people going through the same training will make different gains. Some of it is simply differences in genetics and natural aptitude. In real life, I'm a rotten basketball player. I played basketball one season. I got better through practice, but most of my teammates got way better. In the show, Kuririn and Goku both went through the same exact training with Muten Roshi and yet Goku clearly made greater gains.

Again, it's a story, not an RPG. The purpose any element should serve isn't merely exposition. There should be a dramatic purpose to it. For instance, sure, seeing Piccolo train with Gohan helped explain how Gohan got greater control of his power, but it also showed their relationship develop.

[Zephyr]

Adding on to that, we never see all of anyone's training regimen. We get brief glimpses. Sometimes it's relevant to the story being told to show us parts of what they did while training, sometimes it isn't. All we saw of Freeza's training in the RoF arc in Super was that he was torturing Tagoma (if I remember correctly). That doesn't mean it's all he did, but showing that part of the training in particular helps (re)-emphasize how much of a cold bastard Freeza is.

[Koitsukai]

Many times you've been told that 17 also had Cell Jrs on his island, so the "only poachers" it's dead wrong and you are aware of that.

Freeza is a prodigy that never got his lazy ass off of his hover chair, his potential is that big.
Buu is insanely powerful and never trained, so yeah, same thing applies. I don't know where you got the idea that training on your own, or with a silly sparring partner cannot be of any use.
And none of the earthlings got any huge boosts. The ToP had a non-killing rule, everybody was adjusting their power in order to not get disqualified. They hardly demostrated anything beyond their expected possibilities.
Also, Krilin literally lives with an android, and they were shown training together.


Besides, DB was never too shy to have silly training providing big boosts. Goku's first training regime was delivering milk, and it sure worked for him and Krilin.

[Xeogran]

so I don't even know if SSG Goku is stronger than SS Vegetto as it was previously thought, let alone SS3 Vegetto.

I agree with this, that BoG line is definitely an oddition here and not what's actually shown to us. Now a decade later, it's fair to say SSG isn't as overpowered as it was thought.

And if anything, Goku wouldn't talk about hypothetical SS3 Vegetto here when he never got to feel his power at that form.

[super michael]

There are so many factors. Different people going through the same training will make different gains. Some of it is simply differences in genetics and natural aptitude. In real life, I'm a rotten basketball player. I played basketball one season. I got better through practice, but most of my teammates got way better. In the show, Kuririn and Goku both went through the same exact training with Muten Roshi and yet Goku clearly made greater gains.

Again, it's a story, not an RPG. The purpose any element should serve isn't merely exposition. There should be a dramatic purpose to it. For instance, sure, seeing Piccolo train with Gohan helped explain how Gohan got greater control of his power, but it also showed their relationship develop.

I think your answers are good, you explained how training works in real life and how different people makes different progress.

You are right when student and teacher trains, a bond is formed between them. Another example is Master Roshi and his students, even though they have surpassed him and Master Roshi said he is no longer their teacher, they were wearing Master Roshi clothes out of respect.

I hope I understood it right.

Many times you've been told that 17 also had Cell Jrs on his island, so the "only poachers" it's dead wrong and you are aware of that.

The Cell Jrs were exclusively for the manga, they were never shown in the anime. In the anime we only see humans and weapons and nothing else.

Freeza is a prodigy that never got his lazy ass off of his hover chair, his potential is that big.
Buu is insanely powerful and never trained, so yeah, same thing applies. I don't know where you got the idea that training on your own, or with a silly sparring partner cannot be of any use.
And none of the earthlings got any huge boosts. The ToP had a non-killing rule, everybody was adjusting their power in order to not get disqualified. They hardly demostrated anything beyond their expected possibilities.
Also, Krilin literally lives with an android, and they were shown training together.


Besides, DB was never too shy to have silly training providing big boosts. Goku's first training regime was delivering milk, and it sure worked for him and Krilin.

The milk training wasn't the only thing they did, that was just 1 training.

[Koitsukai]

Many times you've been told that 17 also had Cell Jrs on his island, so the "only poachers" it's dead wrong and you are aware of that.

The Cell Jrs were exclusively for the manga, they were never shown in the anime. In the anime we only see humans and weapons and nothing else.

It doesn't matter, there's nothing saying additional information in the manga cannot be used to fill in some gaps in the anime. The manga also had the same scene of poachers, until later on it was added that the Cell Jrs. have been living on the island and were tamed by 17. They weren't shown in the anime, not because he underwent a different training regime, but because it wasn't thought up at that time.

Unless it contradicts something directly, it's fair game. It's not even a retcon, it's expanding upon certain events that weren't explained before.

[WittyUsername]

I think trying to make sense of power-scaling is a bit futile. Characters are as strong as they need to be. With that said, it is weird to think that Freeza would’ve completely destroyed Goku back on Namek if he had just bothered to do some push-ups every now and then.

[ABED]

I think trying to make sense of power-scaling is a bit futile. Characters are as strong as they need to be. With that said, it is weird to think that Freeza would’ve completely destroyed Goku back on Namek if he had just bothered to do some push-ups every now and then.

As frustrating as it was for Freeza to lose in RoF pretty much the same way again, I like the point being made that regardless of his power up, he still hasn't learned the finer points of combat, including understanding the drawbacks of his transformations.

You are right when student and teacher trains, a bond is formed between them. Another example is Master Roshi and his students, even though they have surpassed him and Master Roshi said he is no longer their teacher, they were wearing Master Roshi clothes out of respect.

I hope I understood it right.

My point is less that a bond forms between teacher and student, and more that the payoff of Piccolo giving his life for Gohan is set up via the training as opposed to their training being purely a matter of exposition.

[WittyUsername]

I think trying to make sense of power-scaling is a bit futile. Characters are as strong as they need to be. With that said, it is weird to think that Freeza would’ve completely destroyed Goku back on Namek if he had just bothered to do some push-ups every now and then.

As frustrating as it was for Freeza to lose in RoF pretty much the same way again, I like the point being made that regardless of his power up, he still hasn't learned the finer points of combat, including understanding the drawbacks of his transformations.

I more just mean that it kind of cheapens Freeza’s whole fear of the Super Saiyan legend if all he apparently needed to do to beat Goku was a few push-ups. It also begs the question of why he didn’t bother to do any training when he was heading to Earth with his father to get revenge on Goku.

[Zephyr]

Freeza tells his dad that he's not destroying Earth in a single shot because he wants Goku to see his "new and improved" state, suggesting that the mechanical repairs have also served to make him stronger. In the original story, he's a spoiled brat who gets everything handed to him: his natural strength, and then a mechanical increase to that strength. He's yet to be given any reason to improve himself through genuine effort. It's laziness supported by arrogance.

He fears the legendary Super Saiyan, and/or that the Saiyans will gang up on him? No need to train and get stronger when he can just blow their planet up. Goku defeated him soundly? No need to train to get stronger when daddy's robotics experts already did the trick. Goku is now stronger than Majin Boo? This is when he finally trains, but again, he's starting from a place of laziness, so it makes sense that he'd rush into things as soon as he makes some progress. He's repeatedly fallen to hubris because he's arrogant and lazy and does the bare minimum each time. Only once he's in hell a second time does he train himself further, and (in the manga) even further still after the Tournament of Power.

I can understand if it was frustrating to watch him take baby steps for so long, but I think it makes sense and provides a pretty gradual arc for him.

[Skar]

These powerups remind me of old "wish fulfillment" fanfics that bring up back their favorite characters and have them out-train everyone to catch up in a short time. The funny thing is the stories doing that were criticized for being different than what Toriyama did in the manga since most characters didn't come out of retirement or out train the Saiyans with less experience.

Gohan and Uub had the biggest potential in the manga but couldn't use their power properly without Goku training them. DBS Broly was the same way. He had some basic training from Paragus but he wasn't the most skilled teacher so Broly had to rage his way to Goku and Vegeta's power and now training with them.

[BWri]

At this point ki is just magic. It's bestowed to whoever the plot needs it to be bestowed upon.

But I've been thinking about it anyway. There's this idea that the Saiyan zenkai may provide a boost in ki in proportion to the strength of the enemy as an evolutionary response. If that is true, there's a lot going into that concept. There's questions you have to ask:

Where's the ki come from? Is it taken from the environment? From the opponent? Is it from a deep well of power that is normally inaccessible? Does it just amplify what's already there? Is it based on mental trauma, physical trauma, both? Does a fighter's mentality affect it at all? How much does a fighter's biology affect it? Is it purely biological, purely spiritual, or both? Are zenkais only possessed by the Saiyans or do other races have them too but at a much much much slower rate.

Once those questions are asked then maybe we can ask some others.

If someone's level of ki can change based on the strength of their opponent then what's stopping this from happening via other means outside of zenkai? If zenkais are mostly a spiritual response, what's stopping the ki of others from having these dramatic spikes?

So, I'm just posing these questions to make my premise easier to understand. The premise: everyone's ki is rising in response to monstrous levels of ki around them. Everyone is stronger than they've ever been, even those who sit on their ass. Everyone seems thousands or millions of times stronger than previous generations. There's a surge of ki in this era and its centered around Goku and his friends. I actually wonder if there's a specific reason for this that hasn't been explained in the story or even if ki ... like midichlorians ... is sentient.