Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

All those show Beerus is still the man and always has been.

Cool. Nobody's disputing this.

This, however:

There is no if's about it, Beerus got stronger due to Whis escalating his strength himself.

...is where you fall headfirst into blatant "making shit up" territory. Seriously, what? Whis mentions nothing about Beerus growing a lot stronger between the Z movies. Dude could have started learning UI's principles a gazillion years ago, not to mention that if anything, Res 'F' is consistent with BoG in having the Saiyans approach his general level.

Super, on the other hand, is consistent about neither Goku nor Vegeta ever being anywhere close to Beerus regardless of how many forms they've got up their sleeves. All those numerical comparisons were clearly omitted for a reason, not to mention all the countless other examples that show the details between BoG/RF and Super being markedly different.

The only fanfiction here is the assumption that a lazy bum like Beerus is getting a bunch of great mysterious unseen boosts in power while taking naps between story arcs. Not even close, my dude.

It's only in the making stuff up territory if you blatantly ignore the fact that a single red Goku can push Beerus to 70% in BoG then all of a sudden in RoF, the narrative only "thinks" it "seems" like two Blue's at the same time can only fight him head on, not beat him but only exchange.

No what I said was those lines not being in the series [anime/manga] don't contradict the movie having those sayings. The lines being in DBS TV series and manga series or not does not matter. Since the point of all the mediums is to have Beerus as a future powerhouse Goku and company are chasing. The movies are a separate universe anyway. Toriyama ignored KK Blue and Evolution Vegeta from TOEI. Toriyama has Jiren's power not so different from Goku and Vegeta in Super Hero. We know in the anime/manga Jiren was in another dimension from Goku and Vegeta. It's consistent that Beerus is the man from jump street.

But your argument now is that Beerus has been secretly training offscreen because he hadn't quite mastered UI in RoF. Whis never comments on his power growing throughout DBS in either continuity when he sees Beerus fighting. Broly is part of the DBS continuity that ignored those statements from BoG and RoF since he used SSJ and SSJG against Broly instead of Saiyan Beyond God from RoF.

The other problem is trying to make the scale in BoG fit with DBS or Broly is that Whis is a 15 so 1.5x stronger than Beerus. There's not much room for Beerus to train offscreen and become several times stronger than the initial SSJG without surpassing Whis. Nothing implied the difference between Beerus and Whis changed in DBS and only that SSJG starts out at a much smaller percentage of Beerus' power so that Goku could get several times stronger but still remain weaker than Beerus.

I always had the statement about Beerus and UI from my first post. Coupled with the fact that Beerus's 70% was stated to be a huge difference still to Goku in the movie. Not to mention someone was wrong about one of the statements being omitted from all the mediums...

Movie


Anime




Manga


Also, Where did Toriyama say that Beerus and Whis will always be at that scale in BoG [6/10/15] and it's set for the rest of the story? Especially after Beerus admitted that Goku's latent potential is "unfathomable?" No retcon's where stated to have happened because no power level was ever set for any of these characters yet. Oh, there goes that word yet again!

[Skar]

I always had the statement about Beerus and UI from my first post. Coupled with the fact that Beerus's 70% was stated to be a huge difference still to Goku in the movie. Not to mention someone was wrong about one of the statements being omitted from all the mediums...

I don't recall anyone claiming that line was removed for DBS. The discussion has been about the same two lines since the beginning. You're the only one interpreting this statement to mean Beerus has been training offscreen. All Whis says is that Beerus hasn't mastered it yet in RoF and no comment from Whis in a later arc that Beerus improved since he struggled with it in the ToP.

Also, Where did Toriyama say that Beerus and Whis will always be at that scale in BoG [6/10/15] and it's set for the rest of the story? [/b][/i] Especially after Beerus admitted that Goku's latent potential is "unfathomable?" No retcon's where stated to have happened because no power level was ever set for any of these characters yet. Oh, there goes that word yet again!

Tbh it feels like you're misrepresenting what everyone has been saying. The argument was that the old scale no longer applied to DBS since the 70% line was removed so that SSJG started out much lower. That was it since we're not given a new scale. In the old scale, Whis is only 1.5x stronger than Beerus and 2.5x stronger than SSJG. There was either a retcon or you have to argue both were training offscreen without the story mentioning it.

[Miracles]

I always had the statement about Beerus and UI from my first post. Coupled with the fact that Beerus's 70% was stated to be a huge difference still to Goku in the movie. Not to mention someone was wrong about one of the statements being omitted from all the mediums...

I don't recall anyone claiming that line was removed for DBS. The discussion has been about the same two lines since the beginning. You're the only one interpreting this statement to mean Beerus has been training offscreen. All Whis says is that Beerus hasn't mastered it yet in RoF and no comment from Whis in a later arc that Beerus improved since he struggled with it in the ToP.

Also, Where did Toriyama say that Beerus and Whis will always be at that scale in BoG [6/10/15] and it's set for the rest of the story? [/b][/i] Especially after Beerus admitted that Goku's latent potential is "unfathomable?" No retcon's where stated to have happened because no power level was ever set for any of these characters yet. Oh, there goes that word yet again!

Tbh it feels like you're misrepresenting what everyone has been saying. The argument was that the old scale no longer applied to DBS since the 70% line was removed so that SSJG started out much lower. That was it since we're not given a new scale. In the old scale, Whis is only 1.5x stronger than Beerus and 2.5x stronger than SSJG. There was either a retcon or you have to argue both were training offscreen without the story mentioning it.

Saying you said the Beerus UI line was missing was a typo. However, the original argument was what the authorial intent was between Whis and the two SSB's comment. You came in with headcanon saying it seems it's a retcon since the lines [70% and SSB's] aren't in Super series. I already told you that isn't proof of any retcon.

Yet despite the power scale increasing from BoG [70%], to RoF [Two Blue's thinking could compete], to DBS: Broly [Blue fusion level opponent Probably being stronger than Beerus] to DBS: Super Hero [Now stronger than Broly being the strongest in the universe] somehow the line about Beerus not mastering UI "quite yet" being in all three mediums isn't evidence of him training. But lets take the invisible proof of a retcon happening because two lines aren't in Super. Even tho that was never said. Not to mention haven't seen Beerus full power along with his use of UI. Too many in story possibilities to be a retcon.

[Skar]

Saying you said the Beerus UI line was missing was a typo. However, the original argument was what the authorial intent was between Whis and the two SSB's comment. You came in with headcanon saying it seems it's a retcon since the lines [70% and SSB's] aren't in Super series. I already told you that isn't proof of any retcon.

Yet despite the power scale increasing from BoG [70%], to RoF [Two Blue's thinking could compete], to DBS: Broly [Blue fusion level opponent Probably being stronger than Beerus] to DBS: Super Hero [Now stronger than Broly being the strongest in the universe] somehow the line about Beerus not mastering UI "quite yet" being in all three mediums isn't evidence of him training. But lets take the invisible proof of a retcon happening because two lines aren't in Super. Even tho that was never said. Not to mention haven't seen Beerus full power along with his use of UI. Too many in story possibilities to be a retcon.

You're repeating the same points but still not explaining why those lines were removed and where it was implied Beerus and Whis were training offscreen. Some people have their own approach to interpreting dialogue, let's only consider the numbers given.

Let's say the BoG scale applied to the anime. RoF was about a year after BoG and Champa was a few weeks or months after. In that time, Whis was busy training Goku and Vegeta and Beerus was mostly sleeping and sitting around. Goku used a Blue Kaioken x10 and still weaker than Beerus so God would now be less 10% of Beerus' power. If the old scale still applied then Blue Kaioken x10 would at minimum a 60 and Kaioken x20 he used in the ToP would be at least 120. That would mean Goku far surpassed the Beerus and Whis he encountered in BoG and they're only currently stronger because they're outpacing his training offscreen.

Same would be implied in the movie continuity. Fusion Dance is "tens of times" stronger or whatever big number you want to use. If the scale still applied, Gogeta would at least at a 60 and far stronger than Beerus and Whis that appeared in BoG. If Beerus really was training offscreen, the story would've likely made it clear Goku already surpassed the Beerus he fought in BoG and now working to catch up to Beerus' new level.

[Miracles]

Saying you said the Beerus UI line was missing was a typo. However, the original argument was what the authorial intent was between Whis and the two SSB's comment. You came in with headcanon saying it seems it's a retcon since the lines [70% and SSB's] aren't in Super series. I already told you that isn't proof of any retcon.

Yet despite the power scale increasing from BoG [70%], to RoF [Two Blue's thinking could compete], to DBS: Broly [Blue fusion level opponent Probably being stronger than Beerus] to DBS: Super Hero [Now stronger than Broly being the strongest in the universe] somehow the line about Beerus not mastering UI "quite yet" being in all three mediums isn't evidence of him training. But lets take the invisible proof of a retcon happening because two lines aren't in Super. Even tho that was never said. Not to mention haven't seen Beerus full power along with his use of UI. Too many in story possibilities to be a retcon.

You're repeating the same points but still not explaining why those lines were removed and where it was implied Beerus and Whis were training offscreen. Some people have their own approach to interpreting dialogue, let's only consider the numbers given.

Let's say the BoG scale applied to the anime. RoF was about a year after BoG and Champa was a few weeks or months after. In that time, Whis was busy training Goku and Vegeta and Beerus was mostly sleeping and sitting around. Goku used a Blue Kaioken x10 and still weaker than Beerus so God would now be less 10% of Beerus' power. If the old scale still applied then Blue Kaioken x10 would at minimum a 60 and Kaioken x20 he used in the ToP would be at least 120. That would mean Goku far surpassed the Beerus and Whis he encountered in BoG and they're only currently stronger because they're outpacing his training offscreen.

Same would be implied in the movie continuity. Fusion Dance is "tens of times" stronger or whatever big number you want to use. If the scale still applied, Gogeta would at least at a 60 and far stronger than Beerus and Whis that appeared in BoG. If Beerus really was training offscreen, the story would've likely made it clear Goku already surpassed the Beerus he fought in BoG and now working to catch up to Beerus' new level.

No need to explain the missing text since there was no explanation. So instead of pretending something was retcon'd when it was never officially said/shown, I take what the story gives the audience.

[Skar]

No need to explain the missing text since there was no explanation. So instead of pretending something was retcon'd when it was never officially said/shown, I take what the story gives the audience.

You're claiming there's no explanation even though the explanation you've been using is that Beerus and Whis has been training offscreen without the story implying that. You still ignored my last point. If you believe the scale applied to Broly and they have been training, does that mean Gogeta surpassed Beerus and Whis from BoG? If we're going by what the story is giving us then Blue Gogeta was clearly more than a few times stronger than SSJG.

[The Monkey King]

No need to explain the missing text since there was no explanation. So instead of pretending something was retcon'd when it was never officially said/shown, I take what the story gives the audience.

Bro, when you have to make up fan theories about Beerus and Whis training in secret, I don't think you can claim "I take what the story gives the audience"...

It's only in the making stuff up territory if you blatantly ignore the fact that a single red Goku can push Beerus to 70% in BoG then all of a sudden in RoF, the narrative only "thinks" it "seems" like two Blue's at the same time can only fight him head on, not beat him but only exchange.

Yeah because his power level was retconned.

I don't know why you're so obsessed with the notion that there needs to be some kind of an official press release from Toriyama himself to declare that Beerus' power level was indeed retconned when it's blatantly obvious in the source material.
It's as ridiculous as needing "official confirmation" to confirm that Trunks' hair colour was changed between DBS and DBZ.

Beerus not mastering UI means just that, he hasn't mastered UI, anything more than that is your conjecture and speculation.

If Beerus had grown stronger it would've been directly stated and if he was training we would've seen it. But every time we see him he's always just woken up from a nap, which is quite the opposite of rigorous training.

[Koitsukai]

Every media portrays Beerus the same: a lazy bum that takes naps all the time, goes fishing, is bored and complains about it, wants to grab a bite, is laying around constantly... the manga even goes to town with his lazyness, giving him a form that basically depends on his desire to destroy and not on his actual physical form. The perfect power up for the bums. It also puts to rest the possibility of Beerus training on the side: he doesn't need to.

And we're supposed to believe this is all just an unintentional by product, because he has actually been training on the side, even though his portrayal is completely at odds with this take? and this is just to make one line work, a line that was written without the developments that followed and was even treated as a blatant lie in the anime. So throwing away a characterization throughout 3 different media for the past 10 years just to make room for one line or two that precede the characterization?

What's the problem with admitting something was retconned anyway? the original manga had plenty of that, Toriyama never stuttered when needing to drop a previous thing to welcome a new revelation. If it's a semantics issue, then fine, it's just letters put together, but the initial intent was definitely rearranged as time went by.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I feel like the series has in some way remained somewhat consistent throughout, at least in maintaining that some combination of Goku and Vegeta can take on and perhaps defeat a God of Destruction like Beerus:

• Revival of F: Whis says it seems that Goku and Vegeta could go toe-to-toe against Beerus if they worked together (cue a whole film that shows them having issues with someone rather below that level, on account of not working together);
• Future Trunks arc: Goku and Vegeta fuse to fight Zamas; Shin raises the question of whether SSjB Vegetto is already stronger than Beerus;
• Tournament of Power arc: Goku and Vegeta fight together perfectly and gain the advantage against Jiren, whose whole schtick is being stronger than a God of Destruction (granted, he's seriously depleted by that point, but so are they all);
• Broly: Goku and Vegeta fuse; SSjB Gogeta whomps Broly, who is assessed by Goku as "probably stronger than Beerus".

There are arcs where the question doesn't really seem to be touched on so much or perhaps only obliquely (if you squint at it), but it seems to be maintained throughout that while neither Goku nor Vegeta can take Beerus alone, some version of Goku + Vegeta generally could.

This isn't directed at anyone in the conversation. But maybe it's worth reflecting on as a general observation, amid the Beerus-related power wonkiness that exists in Super otherwise.

[Miracles]

No need to explain the missing text since there was no explanation. So instead of pretending something was retcon'd when it was never officially said/shown, I take what the story gives the audience.

You're claiming there's no explanation even though the explanation you've been using is that Beerus and Whis has been training offscreen without the story implying that. You still ignored my last point. If you believe the scale applied to Broly and they have been training, does that mean Gogeta surpassed Beerus and Whis from BoG? If we're going by what the story is giving us then Blue Gogeta was clearly more than a few times stronger than SSJG.

Obviously they haven't surpassed Beerus since he is still the strongest in Super Hero.All three mediums have Beerus said to not have mastered UI "yet". That's evidence on paper, No retcon at all. Especially when Beerus's scale in BoG was never said to be the same from then on. That's your headcanon.

No need to explain the missing text since there was no explanation. So instead of pretending something was retcon'd when it was never officially said/shown, I take what the story gives the audience.

Bro, when you have to make up fan theories about Beerus and Whis training in secret, I don't think you can claim "I take what the story gives the audience"...

It's only in the making stuff up territory if you blatantly ignore the fact that a single red Goku can push Beerus to 70% in BoG then all of a sudden in RoF, the narrative only "thinks" it "seems" like two Blue's at the same time can only fight him head on, not beat him but only exchange.

Yeah because his power level was retconned.

I don't know why you're so obsessed with the notion that there needs to be some kind of an official press release from Toriyama himself to declare that Beerus' power level was indeed retconned when it's blatantly obvious in the source material.
It's as ridiculous as needing "official confirmation" to confirm that Trunks' hair colour was changed between DBS and DBZ.

Beerus not mastering UI means just that, he hasn't mastered UI, anything more than that is your conjecture and speculation.

If Beerus had grown stronger it would've been directly stated and if he was training we would've seen it. But every time we see him he's always just woken up from a nap, which is quite the opposite of rigorous training.

Hasn't mastered UI "YET." Please understand that means in pursuit. Who set Beerus's power at a level? Didn't happen. Now post me the retcons thats been officially stated. Beerus power was never set in stone. Retcon clan is nothing more than headcanon.

[QuakingStar]

You keep talking about official explanations or official statements about retcons, when 9/10 there never is any.

[Skar]

Obviously they haven't surpassed Beerus since he is still the strongest in Super Hero.All three mediums have Beerus said to not have mastered UI "yet". That's evidence on paper, No retcon at all. Especially when Beerus's scale in BoG was never said to be the same from then on. That's your headcanon.

Your only response is claiming every other explanation is headcanon except the one you created that they've been training. It doesn't seem like a good explanation if you need to keep ignoring everything that doesn't support it. I'm asking you where Gogeta would be on that scale since you've said it hasn't been retconned. Gogeta would at least be more than the combined power of Goku and Vegeta so if SSJG was a 6 then Blue Gogeta would be at least a 12. Does that mean he surpassed Beerus' full power from BoG and only weaker than the current Beerus who has been secretly training?

[Mr Baggins]

Hasn't mastered UI "YET." Please understand that means in pursuit.

That word does not mean what you think it means. Beerus could have last "pursued" UI 39 years prior to BoG and that same verbiage would still hold. He could have pursued it a thousand years ago. He could have improved it by a little at a time. Nothing that Whis is saying supports your very unsupported headcanon about a lazy cat who sleeps more than he trains.

There's nothing further to be said. You've jumped through more hoops than a circus tiger to avoid calling a spade a spade, but the irony in all this is that you've actually made an even stronger case for a retcon than we have.

Not a hill I'd advise dying on, bud.

[Miracles]

Obviously they haven't surpassed Beerus since he is still the strongest in Super Hero.All three mediums have Beerus said to not have mastered UI "yet". That's evidence on paper, No retcon at all. Especially when Beerus's scale in BoG was never said to be the same from then on. That's your headcanon.

Your only response is claiming every other explanation is headcanon except the one you created that they've been training. It doesn't seem like a good explanation if you need to keep ignoring everything that doesn't support it. I'm asking you where Gogeta would be on that scale since you've said it hasn't been retconned. Gogeta would at least be more than the combined power of Goku and Vegeta so if SSJG was a 6 then Blue Gogeta would be at least a 12. Does that mean he surpassed Beerus' full power from BoG and only weaker than the current Beerus who has been secretly training?

I don't need to explain when it's stated that Beerus has yet to master UI, meaning in progress. Also That Toriyama never said that scale in BoG was SET for the rest of Super. It's your job to prove that he did. So your retcon claim can become reality.

Hasn't mastered UI "YET." Please understand that means in pursuit.

That word does not mean what you think it means. Beerus could have last "pursued" UI 39 years prior to BoG and that same verbiage would still hold. He could have pursued it a thousand years ago. He could have improved it by a little at a time. Nothing that Whis is saying supports your very unsupported headcanon about a lazy cat who sleeps more than he trains.

There's nothing further to be said. You've jumped through more hoops than a circus tiger to avoid calling a spade a spade, but the irony in all this is that you've actually made an even stronger case for a retcon than we have.

Not a hill I'd advise dying on, bud.

You'd be right if it were in a context of finality. The context has Whis talking about Goku and Vegeta mastering UI and in the same context Beerus hasn't mastered it "yet" Which means up to the present time;.

[Miracles]

You keep talking about official explanations or official statements about retcons, when 9/10 there never is any.

If you can show me where the series or Toriyama himself ever set Beerus's power level in one tier and said this is what it is for the rest of the series and then he changes it, then you got a case for retcon. That scale was for BOG only Not forever.

[Skar]

I don't need to explain when it's stated that Beerus has yet to master UI, meaning in progress. Also That Toriyama never said that scale in BoG was SET for the rest of Super. It's your job to prove that he did. So your retcon claim can become reality.

Well I'm assuming you don't have answer since it's a very straightforward question. You've established that you believe Beerus is training in secret to master UI. That's something you believe happened after BoG correct? I'm asking where Blue Gogeta would rank compared to SSJG and Beerus from BoG only based on the scale used in BoG. Would Blue Gogeta be more than a 10?

[Mr Baggins]

Which means still; "even" (used to emphasize increase or repetition).

While you were copypasting from Google, you left out the part where that (more uncommon) definition doesn't apply to Whis's syntax, which clearly points to the primary standard use of "yet".

But looking at the rest of your post, I'm not sure you know what a retcon is either.

[Miracles]

I don't need to explain when it's stated that Beerus has yet to master UI, meaning in progress. Also That Toriyama never said that scale in BoG was SET for the rest of Super. It's your job to prove that he did. So your retcon claim can become reality.

Well I'm assuming you don't have answer since it's a very straightforward question. You've established that you believe Beerus is training in secret to master UI. That's something you believe happened after BoG correct? I'm asking where Blue Gogeta would rank compared to SSJG and Beerus from BoG only based on the scale used in BoG. Would Blue Gogeta be more than a 10?

I can't place Gogeta on the scale since Toriyama never said it will remain the same from BoG onward. That's your assumption. Doing so would make me a headcanon theologian like many in the fandom, I can't do that. I can only take what's on paper.

Which means still; "even" (used to emphasize increase or repetition).

While you were copypasting from Google, you left out the part where that (more uncommon) definition doesn't apply to Whis's syntax, which clearly points to the primary standard use of "yet".

But looking at the rest of your post, I'm not sure you know what a retcon is either.

No, I edited my post. I'm free to do that.Getting a definition from the dictionary which has "Yet" mean the "present time". Which debunks your "39 years prior."

[Skar]

I can't place Gogeta on the scale since Toriyama never said it will remain the same from BoG onward. That's your assumption. Doing so would make me a headcanon theologian like many in the fandom, I can't do that. I can only take what's on paper.

I think you're overcomplicating the question to avoid giving an answer since that's not what I've been asking. I never claimed I know what the scale is after BoG so I'll make clearer that I'm only asking about BoG. Let's say they performed the SSJG ritual on Vegeta in BoG and they fused into a SSJG Gogeta in BoG. Goku was a 6 so a SSJG Vegeta would likely be around that. I think most fans would agree a fusion of Goku and Vegeta at minimum combines their power so a hypothetical SSJG Gogeta in BoG would at least be a 12 correct?

[Miracles]

I can't place Gogeta on the scale since Toriyama never said it will remain the same from BoG onward. That's your assumption. Doing so would make me a headcanon theologian like many in the fandom, I can't do that. I can only take what's on paper.

I think you're overcomplicating the question to avoid giving an answer since that's not what I've been asking. I never claimed I know what the scale is after BoG so I'll make clearer that I'm only asking about BoG. Let's say they performed the SSJG ritual on Vegeta in BoG and they fused into a SSJG Gogeta in BoG. Goku was a 6 so a SSJG Vegeta would likely be around that. I think most fans would agree a fusion of Goku and Vegeta at minimum combines their power so a hypothetical SSJG Gogeta in BoG would at least be a 12 correct?

That's hypothetical, I told you I'm not getting into that. Ask Toriyama that question if he kept that [10/6/15] scale at the present. There is no proof for a retcon [established factual power changed later].