Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Skar]

That's hypothetical, I told you I'm not getting into that. Ask Toriyama that question if he kept that [10/6/15] scale at the present. There is no proof for a retcon [established factual power changed later].

It's a hypothetical based on established information from the series. We know the scale in BoG and we know fusion is more than the sum of its parts. I'm curious what your answer would be if you tried giving a number.

[Miracles]

That's hypothetical, I told you I'm not getting into that. Ask Toriyama that question if he kept that [10/6/15] scale at the present. There is no proof for a retcon [established factual power changed later].

It's a hypothetical based on established information from the series. We know the scale in BoG and we know fusion is more than the sum of its parts. I'm curious what your answer would be if you tried giving a number.

It's not established because did you ask if Toriyama inputs Beerus knowing a somewhat mastered version of UI in that? How much would that increase the 10 number?

[Skar]

It's not established because did you ask if Toriyama inputs Beerus knowing a somewhat mastered version of UI in that? How much would that increase the 10 number?

Ok so now you're saying the 10 for Beerus wasn't his full power at the time? Whis was a 15 so any version of Beerus has to be lower than that in BoG.

[Miracles]

It's not established because did you ask if Toriyama inputs Beerus knowing a somewhat mastered version of UI in that? How much would that increase the 10 number?

Ok so now you're saying the 10 for Beerus wasn't his full power at the time? Whis was a 15 so any version of Beerus has to be lower than that in BoG.

I didn't say that. I said ask Toriyama if he factored in UI when making the scale comparisons.

[Skar]

I didn't say that. I said ask Toriyama if he factored in UI when making the scale comparisons.

Even if Toriyama planned UI before RoF, he still confirmed Beerus was weaker than Whis who was a 15. That gives us a range of 10-15 for Beerus at most in BoG. That still doesn't answer the question about SSJG Gogeta in BoG. If he's 3x stronger than SSJG Goku then he would be above Whis at the time. 3x boost is still pretty low compared to every other fusion we've seen in the series.

[Miracles]

I didn't say that. I said ask Toriyama if he factored in UI when making the scale comparisons.

Even if Toriyama planned UI before RoF, he still confirmed Beerus was weaker than Whis who was a 15. That gives us a range of 10-15 for Beerus at most in BoG. That still doesn't answer the question about SSJG Gogeta in BoG. If he's 3x stronger than SSJG Goku then he would be above Whis at the time. 3x boost is still pretty low compared to every other fusion we've seen in the series.

Your assuming numbers if Toriyama did put UI in that scale for Beerus. Did Toriyama confirm Beerus weaker than Whis with UI in that scale? If so, by how much? Did that number increase? Again we don't know.

[Skar]

Your assuming numbers if Toriyama did put UI in that scale for Beerus. Did Toriyama confirm Beerus weaker than Whis with UI in that scale? If so, by how much? Did that number increase? Again we don't know.

Beerus is the one who confirmed Whis was stronger than him so the most straightforward assumption is that Beerus is comparing Whis to his own full power. We find out later that Angels are always in UI so it seems like it's already factored in for Whis' power. Since Angels have already mastered UI while Beerus has yet to master it even until now, Whis should still be stronger either way.

[Miracles]

Your assuming numbers if Toriyama did put UI in that scale for Beerus. Did Toriyama confirm Beerus weaker than Whis with UI in that scale? If so, by how much? Did that number increase? Again we don't know.

Beerus is the one who confirmed Whis was stronger than him so the most straightforward assumption is that Beerus is comparing Whis to his own full power. We find out later that Angels are always in UI so it seems like it's already factored in for Whis' power. Since Angels have already mastered UI while Beerus has yet to master it even until now, Whis should still be stronger either way.

Again that's an assumption. That doesn't change the fact that the scale numbers assume Beerus with UI or not. Still you are guessing.

[Skar]

Again that's an assumption. That doesn't change the fact that the scale numbers assume Beerus with UI or not. Still you are guessing.

We're discussing a different retcon at this point because UI was introduced in RoF and no evidence he had it planned before. You're arguing Toriyama retroactively factored it in so 10 might no longer have been Beerus' full power at the time. Since you're using information that came after, I pointed out the Angels were said to always be in UI so that should've factored in for Whis' number.

[Miracles]

Again that's an assumption. That doesn't change the fact that the scale numbers assume Beerus with UI or not. Still you are guessing.

We're discussing a different retcon at this point because UI was introduced in RoF and no evidence he had it planned before. You're arguing Toriyama retroactively factored it in so 10 might no longer have been Beerus' full power at the time. Since you're using information that came after, I pointed out the Angels were said to always be in UI so that should've factored in for Whis' number.

No we are not. That's the point, Firstly how do you know if Toriyama SET that scale from BoG for the entire series; going into RoF? Did he factor in Beerus using UI IN the BoG scale? If so how would the scale change then? This also goes for your Gogeta doubling Goku Red's power to 12 as well. You are assuming the scale to be the end all be all without involving certain facts.

[Hugo Boss]

I feel like the series has in some way remained somewhat consistent throughout, at least in maintaining that some combination of Goku and Vegeta can take on and perhaps defeat a God of Destruction like Beerus:

• Revival of F: Whis says it seems that Goku and Vegeta could go toe-to-toe against Beerus if they worked together (cue a whole film that shows them having issues with someone rather below that level, on account of not working together);
• Future Trunks arc: Goku and Vegeta fuse to fight Zamas; Shin raises the question of whether SSjB Vegetto is already stronger than Beerus;
• Tournament of Power arc: Goku and Vegeta fight together perfectly and gain the advantage against Jiren, whose whole schtick is being stronger than a God of Destruction (granted, he's seriously depleted by that point, but so are they all);
• Broly: Goku and Vegeta fuse; SSjB Gogeta whomps Broly, who is assessed by Goku as "probably stronger than Beerus".

There are arcs where the question doesn't really seem to be touched on so much or perhaps only obliquely (if you squint at it), but it seems to be maintained throughout that while neither Goku nor Vegeta can take Beerus alone, some version of Goku + Vegeta generally could.

This isn't directed at anyone in the conversation. But maybe it's worth reflecting on as a general observation, amid the Beerus-related power wonkiness that exists in Super otherwise.

I think this is the general idea we work with. Basically the plot point is the same, but what is changing throughout the recent Dragon Ball stories is what kind of combination that Goku and Vegeta need to beat Beerus, reinforcing again the retcon observation.

[Skar]

No we are not. That's the point, Firstly how do you know if Toriyama SET that scale from BoG for the entire series; going into RoF? Did he factor in Beerus using UI IN the BoG scale? If so how would the scale change then? This also goes for your Gogeta doubling Goku Red's power to 12 as well. You are assuming the scale to be the end all be all without involving certain facts.

It might help if you shared which definition of retcon you're using. It seems like you're fine with the scale changing or being retconned to fit only your opinion of the information that was added later. I was still talking about how the scale relates specifically to BoG and the characters at the time of BoG. If you believe the number given for Beerus didn't factor in UI, do you believe that also applied to Whis who already mastered it? Was the 15 given for Whis not his full power at the time?

[Miracles]

No we are not. That's the point, Firstly how do you know if Toriyama SET that scale from BoG for the entire series; going into RoF? Did he factor in Beerus using UI IN the BoG scale? If so how would the scale change then? This also goes for your Gogeta doubling Goku Red's power to 12 as well. You are assuming the scale to be the end all be all without involving certain facts.

It might help if you shared which definition of retcon you're using. It seems like you're fine with the scale changing or being retconned to fit only your opinion of the information that was added later. I was still talking about how the scale relates specifically to BoG and the characters at the time of BoG. If you believe the number given for Beerus didn't factor in UI, do you believe that also applied to Whis who already mastered it? Was the 15 given for Whis not his full power at the time?

As I said before who knows if Toriyama factored in everything in that scale. Maybe he did maybe he didn't. Also, you jump in here talking about BoG and how the movie has been "retconned" because the Super series omitted those two lines. Yet did not contradict the 70% line written in BoG. Which proves that it's not a retcon since what was established earlier is not contradicted/changed later. Remember, I posted up the site stating that the Super Series "links up" with BoG and RoF movies.

[Skar]

As I said before who knows if Toriyama factored in everything in that scale. Maybe he did maybe he didn't. Also, you jump in here talking about BoG and how the movie has been "retconned" because the Super series omitted those two lines. Yet did not contradict the 70% line written in BoG. Which proves that it's not a retcon since what was established earlier is not contradicted/changed later. Remember, I posted up the site stating that the Super Series "links up" with BoG and RoF movies.

I recall you said those lines were omitted from the manga and anime because they were a different continuity. The discussion is only about if those lines applied to Broly or if it was part of the revised continuity that didn't include them. You've already given a few of your own assumptions so I wanted to know what you thought that 15 for Whis meant. This is the first time I've heard someone argue the 10 and 15 weren't their full power at the time of BoG. I think you only started saying that after I pointed out a hypothetical SSJG Gogeta would've been stronger than Beerus in BoG . The 12 I gave was only the bare minimum but we know he would be much higher on that scale based on every other fusion in the series.

[Miracles]

As I said before who knows if Toriyama factored in everything in that scale. Maybe he did maybe he didn't. Also, you jump in here talking about BoG and how the movie has been "retconned" because the Super series omitted those two lines. Yet did not contradict the 70% line written in BoG. Which proves that it's not a retcon since what was established earlier is not contradicted/changed later. Remember, I posted up the site stating that the Super Series "links up" with BoG and RoF movies.

I recall you said those lines were omitted from the manga and anime because they were a different continuity. The discussion is only about if those lines applied to Broly or if it was part of the revised continuity that didn't include them. You've already given a few of your own assumptions so I wanted to know what you thought that 15 for Whis meant. This is the first time I've heard someone argue the 10 and 15 weren't their full power at the time of BoG. I think you only started saying that after I pointed out a hypothetical SSJG Gogeta would've been stronger than Beerus in BoG . The 12 I gave was only the bare minimum but we know he would be much higher on that scale based on every other fusion in the series.

Nope, I never said that, I just said the movies and series are a separate universe anyway. Meaning without considering the official statement about the series linking up with BoG/RoF, they are separate due to Toriyama not picking up certain power scaling and forms from TOEI/manga. Still clung to my position how the BoG scaling was NEVER contradicted/changed in the story through the series in relation to BoG movie. Therefore no retcon. That's the point.

See below...

Beerus > any mortal to this day. Only Whis is stated to be stronger in universe 7. Seems consistent to me with no retcons.

I think it could be considered consistent in DBS since it was unclear how strong Beerus was from the beginning. You're still using two statements from the movies to support your argument when you said earlier you weren't sure why they were removed. There has to be some reason why almost every other line from BoG and RoF were kept the same but they specifically removed two statements from Whis about Beerus' power. Beerus still hasn't mastered UI yet even in the latest saga of the manga so we don't know if he's been training at all since BoG.

No what I said was those lines not being in the series [anime/manga] don't contradict the movie having those sayings. The lines being in DBS TV series and manga series or not does not matter. Since the point of all the mediums is to have Beerus as a future powerhouse Goku and company are chasing. The movies are a separate universe anyway. Toriyama ignored KK Blue and Evolution Vegeta from TOEI. Toriyama has Jiren's power not so different from Goku and Vegeta in Super Hero. We know in the anime/manga Jiren was in another dimension from Goku and Vegeta. It's consistent that Beerus is the man from jump street.

[Skar]

Nope, I never said that, I just said the movies and series are a separate universe anyway. Meaning without considering the official statement about the series linking up with each other they are separate due to Toriyama not picking up certain power scaling and forms from TOEI/manga. Still clung to my position how the BoG scaling was NEVER contradicted in the story through the series in relation to BoG movie.
See below...

We've been going in circles so I have one last question and I hope you'll try to answer it. If DBS ends and we never get any implication that Beerus improved UI or did any training at all since BoG, would you still believe he's been secretly training offscreen the whole time? Or would you consider the possibility that these omitted lines were retconned from the story?

[Mr Baggins]

No, I edited my post. I'm free to do that.Getting a definition from the dictionary which has "Yet" mean the "present time". Which debunks your "39 years prior."

I don't know whether to be amused or depressed that we've now reached a point where we're having to spoonfeed you basic grammar, but I can assure you this will be my last time doing it:

If Beerus hasn't mastered something "as of the present time", that's just a simple acknowledgement that he hasn't mastered it. It leaves no indication (and is actually purely agnostic) as to when he last improved it, and obviously doesn't suggest he recently, secretly and randomly got dozens or hundreds of times stronger via training between movies. There's no implication anywhere in the film's script of that happening.

Sorry, dude, but not a single word said by Whis supports the fanon you're making up. I think you know this. You are being intransigent about something that is obvious from the jump.

I can't help you beyond this juncture.

I think this is the general idea we work with. Basically the plot point is the same, but what is changing throughout the recent Dragon Ball stories is what kind of combination that Goku and Vegeta need to beat Beerus, reinforcing again the retcon observation.

It's exactly this. The overall narrative structure of "Beerus is still stronger than Goku/Vegeta" is the same between all mediums and post-revival brands of Dragon Ball; indeed, it's the reason we have a retcon in the first place given that Super is a longform series, so it's inevitable that some specific lines of dialogue would be changed or left out entirely to accommodate.

It's not even controversial, really. That's just how format changes tend to work.

[Miracles]

Nope, I never said that, I just said the movies and series are a separate universe anyway. Meaning without considering the official statement about the series linking up with each other they are separate due to Toriyama not picking up certain power scaling and forms from TOEI/manga. Still clung to my position how the BoG scaling was NEVER contradicted in the story through the series in relation to BoG movie.
See below...

We've been going in circles so I have one last question and I hope you'll try to answer it. If DBS ends and we never get any implication that Beerus improved UI or did any training at all since BoG, would you still believe he's been secretly training offscreen the whole time? Or would you consider the possibility that these omitted lines were retconned from the story?

The BoG & RoF movies "link up" with the Dragonball Super TV series with no contradictions that change the previous two established statements in this discussion. If the story continues to not contradict/change anything from those movies there is no retcon despite Super omitting those two lines. I will not change but stick with the facts on paper.

No, I edited my post. I'm free to do that.Getting a definition from the dictionary which has "Yet" mean the "present time". Which debunks your "39 years prior."

I don't know whether to be amused or depressed that we've now reached a point where we're having to spoonfeed you basic grammar, but I can assure you this will be my last time doing it:

If Beerus hasn't mastered something "as of the present time", that's just a simple acknowledgement that he hasn't mastered it. It leaves no indication (and is actually purely agnostic) as to when he last improved it, and obviously doesn't suggest he recently, secretly and randomly got dozens or hundreds of times stronger via training between movies. There's no implication anywhere in the film's script of that happening.

Sorry, dude, but not a single word said by Whis supports the fanon you're making up. I think you know this. You are being intransigent about something that is obvious from the jump.

I can't help you beyond this juncture.

It's as you said, "yet" here means something that happens in the past and continues up until the present time [RoF].
So Beerus has been training up until the point Whis mentions it.

[Skar]

The BoG & RoF movies "link up" with the Dragonball Super TV series with no contradictions that change the previous two established statements in this discussion. If the story continues to not contradict/change anything from those movies there is no retcon despite Super omitting those two lines. I will not change but stick with the facts on paper.

To be honest I assumed you were expecting a big reveal that Beerus has been training this whole time in secret. We're on the 9th or 10th storyline and all we've seen from Beerus is him mostly sleeping or eating. It definitely seems like something to acknowledge at some point in the story if these lines weren't omitted as a intentional retcon.

[Miracles]

The BoG & RoF movies "link up" with the Dragonball Super TV series with no contradictions that change the previous two established statements in this discussion. If the story continues to not contradict/change anything from those movies there is no retcon despite Super omitting those two lines. I will not change but stick with the facts on paper.

To be honest I assumed you were expecting a big reveal that Beerus has been training this whole time in secret. We're on the 9th or 10th storyline and all we've seen from Beerus is him mostly sleeping or eating. It definitely seems like something to acknowledge at some point in the story if these lines weren't omitted as a intentional retcon.

Not really expecting a big reveal at the moment. It's just not Beerus time to battle. That's when I expect we get background on Beerus.