Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Skar]

Not really expecting a big reveal at the moment. It's just not Beerus time to battle. That's when I expect we get background on Beerus.

Ah ok well that actually answers the question this time. Your last comment made it sound like you were going to believe he trained offscreen even if the story never acknowledged it. There was the GoD battle royale in the manga and that would've been an opportunity for Whis to point out Beerus was stronger or improved UI since they last trained together. Maybe Toyotaro wasn't aware that Toriyama intended for Beerus to be training and Toriyama will reveal it by the end of the story.

[Miracles]

Not really expecting a big reveal at the moment. It's just not Beerus time to battle. That's when I expect we get background on Beerus.

Ah ok well that actually answers the question this time. Your last comment made it sound like you were going to believe he trained offscreen even if the story never acknowledged it. There was the GoD battle royale in the manga and that would've been an opportunity for Whis to point out Beerus was stronger or improved UI since they last trained together. Maybe Toyotaro wasn't aware that Toriyama intended for Beerus to be training and Toriyama will reveal it by the end of the story.

Best to wait and see.

[Skar]

Best to wait and see.

What about the other possibility and there's no evidence that he did any training since BoG? Would you still believe he trained offscreen anyway?

[Hugo Boss]

Best to wait and see.

What about the other possibility and there's no evidence that he did any training since BoG? Would you still believe he trained offscreen anyway?

It’s pretty clear we are stupid for not seeing that Beerus is trolling us and he is actually training without any notice and showing us he has been doing nothing. Who knows, Beerus may have surpassed the Grand Priest by now and acting like he has not.

[Yuji]

Was rereading the ToP in the manga and noticed base Freeza seems to be stronger than Frost and relative to SS Caulifla. This means Freeza should be relative to the SS U7 Saiyans as well by the ToP scaling from the Cabba-Vegeta comparisons.

I wonder how strong this makes him in the DBZ scale? At least stronger than Perfect Cell, if not already scratching the first SS2 characters from the Cell and Boo arcs. Definitely not as impressive as the movie and anime version being as strong as SSG, but it seems like a more reasonable power-up for his training.

Then we get to Kale transforming and manhandling Golden Freeza and SSB Goku, only to lose versus Ultimate Gohan as Kefla. I saw some people arguing that Freeza and Goku were holding back, and while they may have been not going all out, I think the implication is clear that Kale is at least relative to their level - base Kale was already stated to be stronger than SS Caulifla.

Thus, what I think happened with the fusion is that Kefla and Kale basically have the same power level only Kefla
can control it. It makes sense to me as both fusees were leagues apart in strength and Goku noted back in the Boo arc his power would probably not even increase, or maybe even decrease, if he fused with Mr. Satan or Dende.

SSB Goku ~ Golden Freeza > SS Kale = SS Kefla = Ultimate Gohan

[Miracles]

Best to wait and see.

What about the other possibility and there's no evidence that he did any training since BoG? Would you still believe he trained offscreen anyway?

Bottom line: If Whis just wanted to let the audience know Beerus hasn't mastered UI then he would of just left it at that. No need to put "yet." However when Whis says Beerus hasn't "quite [fully]" perfected UI "yet" that means up to the present time and it's something that was attempting to be done and being done. That's proof.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Best to wait and see.

What about the other possibility and there's no evidence that he did any training since BoG? Would you still believe he trained offscreen anyway?

Bottom line: If Whis just wanted to let the audience know Beerus hasn't mastered UI then he would of just left it at that. No need to put "yet." However when Whis says Beerus hasn't "quite [fully]" perfected UI "yet" that means up to the present time and it's something that was attempting to be done and being done. That's proof.

It doesn't necessarily mean up until the present. I don't know about the original Japanese context exactly, but other folks have very clearly outlined that you're reading too much into the timescale of that statement.

It's just a general statement of Beerus not having mastered the technique up until currently, not that Beerus has been actively trying to master it currently.

There's really no need to complicate it, further. Whis just said Beerus hasn't mastered it yet, and that's it. Could be he practiced it as of the current latest point in the DBS timeline, or maybe centuries ago; doesn't matter which, because the statement is too generalized to imply one way or another, merely that he hasn't achieved this goal currently.

[Miracles]

What about the other possibility and there's no evidence that he did any training since BoG? Would you still believe he trained offscreen anyway?

Bottom line: If Whis just wanted to let the audience know Beerus hasn't mastered UI then he would of just left it at that. No need to put "yet." However when Whis says Beerus hasn't "quite [fully]" perfected UI "yet" that means up to the present time and it's something that was attempting to be done and being done. That's proof.

It doesn't necessarily mean up until the present. I don't know about the original Japanese context exactly, but other folks have very clearly outlined that you're reading too much into the timescale of that statement.

It's just a general statement of Beerus not having mastered the technique up until currently, not that Beerus has been actively trying to master it currently.

There's really no need to complicate it, further. Whis just said Beerus hasn't mastered it yet, and that's it. Could be he practiced it as of the current latest point in the DBS timeline, or maybe centuries ago; doesn't matter which, because the statement is too generalized to imply one way or another, merely that he hasn't achieved this goal currently.

So it's a matter of semantics then concerning the use of yet. We'll see who the story proves right as we go on.

Still the main point of all the subjects being discussed centers around Beerus being retcon'd or not. Which I have clearly proven he has not since the TV series has not contradicted the BoG scale or statements in the movie. Official statements have the BoG/RoF movies "linking up" with the Dragonball Super series. So it can not be a retcon for Beerus if established statements in the past has not been contradicted or changed. Therefore no evidence of retcon.

I Enjoyed the convo everyone.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I mean there clearly was a retcon, because Goku didn't make Beerus use 70% of his power like before. He made him use 100% of a fake power level instead.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Was rereading the ToP in the manga and noticed base Freeza seems to be stronger than Frost and relative to SS Caulifla. This means Freeza should be relative to the SS U7 Saiyans as well by the ToP scaling from the Cabba-Vegeta comparisons.

I wonder how strong this makes him in the DBZ scale? At least stronger than Perfect Cell, if not already scratching the first SS2 characters from the Cell and Boo arcs. Definitely not as impressive as the movie and anime version being as strong as SSG, but it seems like a more reasonable power-up for his training.

Then we get to Kale transforming and manhandling Golden Freeza and SSB Goku, only to lose versus Ultimate Gohan as Kefla. I saw some people arguing that Freeza and Goku were holding back, and while they may have been not going all out, I think the implication is clear that Kale is at least relative to their level - base Kale was already stated to be stronger than SS Caulifla.

Thus, what I think happened with the fusion is that Kefla and Kale basically have the same power level only Kefla
can control it. It makes sense to me as both fusees were leagues apart in strength and Goku noted back in the Boo arc his power would probably not even increase, or maybe even decrease, if he fused with Mr. Satan or Dende.

SSB Goku ~ Golden Freeza > SS Kale = SS Kefla = Ultimate Gohan

Agreed on Freeza. We don’t know how strong Caulifla is, but going by Cabba she’s at about on pair with Goku and Vegeta. That’s at least Perfect Cell level for him.

But I think we can go a bit further. I think Goku not being KO’d by Rumsshi’s roar is a valid feat. The “he’s GoD level in SSJB so he’s as affected as other GoDs” doesn’t make a lot of sense because a) that’s not how power works and b) SSJB isn’t GoD level, he’s scrapping the bottom of apprentice level. So Base Goku > Kaioshin, which is more or less MSSJ level for me (Everyone between CG Goku and Boo Saga Goku). With this logic, I have SSJ Goku is just behind Super Boo, and so is Freeza. Freeza vs Super Boo would be like 100% Freeza vs SSJ Goku, only worse due to Boo’s regen and infinite stamina.

I disagree on Kale. Goku and Freeza think she’s a big deal because her power keeps rising, but after she peaks Vegeta and Toppo aren’t worried about her. I’d say Kefla is at least a couple times above Kale: If Caulifla’s battle skills made a difference, then she’s not as useless as Satan. You can say the boost was something very small like 1.1x, but to flat out say there’s no boost is a bit too far. All we have suggesting fusion doesn’t always give a boost is Goku’s fear-based pessimistic conjecture. That’s for botched fusions, and Kefla is far from that.

[QuakingStar]

You keep talking about official explanations or official statements about retcons, when 9/10 there never is any.

If you can show me where the series or Toriyama himself ever set Beerus's power level in one tier and said this is what it is for the rest of the series and then he changes it, then you got a case for retcon. That scale was for BOG only Not forever.

That does not mean what you think it does. In the anime and manga it was revealed Beerus lied about using most of his power. Beerus power in the manga is always above everyone elses, in the anime he isn't even approached until the ToP. The whole 6/10/15 scale stuff is for the BoG movie only. The whole Beerus actually using 70% was retconned into him lying about that.

[Cipher]

I disagree on Kale. Goku and Freeza think she’s a big deal because her power keeps rising, but after she peaks Vegeta and Toppo aren’t worried about her. I’d say Kefla is at least a couple times above Kale: If Caulifla’s battle skills made a difference, then she’s not as useless as Satan. You can say the boost was something very small like 1.1x, but to flat out say there’s no boost is a bit too far. All we have suggesting fusion doesn’t always give a boost is Goku’s fear-based pessimistic conjecture. That’s for botched fusions, and Kefla is far from that.

We don't need to wonder about this, because Super itself gives us a Blue-level+Super Saiyan 1/2 level fusion just the arc prior, in fused Zamasu. Zamasu still makes a difference as a fusee, enough to take Black from losing to effortlessly overwhelming Goku and Vegeta, while not being so astronomically out of their league that Goku can't catch back up with perfected SSB.

The anime gives him a much larger jump, allowing him to put up a fight against Vegetto, but the manga's more conservative portrayal of fused Zamasu aligns perfectly well with what it does with Kefla.

[Skar]

Still the main point of all the subjects being discussed centers around Beerus being retcon'd or not. Which I have clearly proven he has not since the TV series has not contradicted the BoG scale or statements in the movie. Official statements have the BoG/RoF movies "linking up" with the Dragonball Super series. So it can not be a retcon for Beerus if established statements in the past has not been contradicted or changed. Therefore no evidence of retcon.

I think the conclusion was the same that the gap between SSJG and Beerus was widened and only the explanation was different. Most people are assuming the scale was retconned since those statements were omitted from the new continuity while you believe Beerus was training offscreen. It was a fun discussion but to be honest I think I'm less convinced he might've trained based on the other less than direct assumptions needed to make it work. Maybe he became several times stronger offscreen based on a different interpretation of the word "yet", maybe Whis also trained in order to remain stronger than Beerus, maybe the 10 and 15 for them given in BoG wasn't actually their full power at the time, etc.

It's the first time I've heard most of these so it's unlikely the younger target audience would come to those conclusions. I think most casual audiences are familiar with the concept of a retcon and a story ignoring details that no longer apply since that happens a lot in other long running franchises. I understand if you don't agree with it but I'm more explaining why it would be the initial thought most people would have since it's not addressed in the story and seems unlikely it will be addressed at this point.

[Hugo Boss]

I think Goku not being KO’d by Rumsshi’s roar is a valid feat. The “he’s GoD level in SSJB so he’s as affected as other GoDs” doesn’t make a lot of sense because a) that’s not how power works and b) SSJB isn’t GoD level, he’s scrapping the bottom of apprentice level. So Base Goku > Kaioshin, which is more or less MSSJ level for me (Everyone between CG Goku and Boo Saga Goku). With this logic, I have SSJ Goku is just behind Super Boo, and so is Freeza. Freeza vs Super Boo would be like 100% Freeza vs SSJ Goku, only worse due to Boo’s regen and infinite stamina.

How do you think Rumsshi's Battle Roar worked then in terms of powerlevel? It’s able to knock out anyone at Supreme Kai level, and even temporarily stun a fellow God of Destruction. In which level do you think the breakpoint between knock out and stun makes sense?

By the way, Beerus confirms Vegeta is at a God of Destruction level when he fights against his completed Super Saiyan Blue form, Vegeta just wasn’t at Beerus level but he could challenge other Gods of Destruction for the position. Iwan also claims that Goku using his Super Saiyan God form is also at the level of a God of Destruction, implying there is a sizable gap between those beings, with Beerus and Quitela being on top.

[Yuji]

The series seems to imply at several points that merely SSG is enough to become a God of Destruction, but I doubt whether Goku is stronger than any GoD in God or Blue.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I disagree on Kale. Goku and Freeza think she’s a big deal because her power keeps rising, but after she peaks Vegeta and Toppo aren’t worried about her. I’d say Kefla is at least a couple times above Kale: If Caulifla’s battle skills made a difference, then she’s not as useless as Satan. You can say the boost was something very small like 1.1x, but to flat out say there’s no boost is a bit too far. All we have suggesting fusion doesn’t always give a boost is Goku’s fear-based pessimistic conjecture. That’s for botched fusions, and Kefla is far from that.

We don't need to wonder about this, because Super itself gives us a Blue-level+Super Saiyan 1/2 level fusion just the arc prior, in fused Zamasu. Zamasu still makes a difference as a fusee, enough to take Black from losing to effortlessly overwhelming Goku and Vegeta, while not being so astronomically out of their league that Goku can't catch back up with perfected SSB.

The anime gives him a much larger jump, allowing him to put up a fight against Vegetto, but the manga's more conservative portrayal of fused Zamasu aligns perfectly well with what it does with Kefla.

Even in the anime, Merged Zamasu's power level isn't so out of their league that they can't put up a fight since Vegeta and Future Trunks combining their power, Goku putting his full might into his Kamehameha, and Goku using Kaioken are able to outmatch Merged Zamasu. I think that, in terms of initial strength, the manga and anime have Merged Zamasu at a similar general level.

He doesn't truly become a foe to match even SSB Vegito in the anime until he explicitly powers himself up, allowing his corrupted purple half to fight on-par with Vegito; even then, it takes the rest of his body becoming giant for his whole body to catch up, at which point he loses speed.

[Hugo Boss]

The series seems to imply at several points that merely SSG is enough to become a God of Destruction, but I doubt whether Goku is stronger than any GoD in God or Blue.

This notion probably comes from the anime, which occasionally uses lines from manga, but instead presents them confusingly. While Supreme Kai of Universe 9 claims that Super Saiyan Blue has power that rivals the gods, it actually takes Super Saiyan Blue Evolved or Ultra Instinct Sign to fulfill that role there.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

We don't need to wonder about this, because Super itself gives us a Blue-level+Super Saiyan 1/2 level fusion just the arc prior, in fused Zamasu. Zamasu still makes a difference as a fusee, enough to take Black from losing to effortlessly overwhelming Goku and Vegeta, while not being so astronomically out of their league that Goku can't catch back up with perfected SSB.

The anime gives him a much larger jump, allowing him to put up a fight against Vegetto, but the manga's more conservative portrayal of fused Zamasu aligns perfectly well with what it does with Kefla.

Agreed. I avoided comparisons to Zamasu because we don’t know if their components are exactly the same, but they’re at least on the same tiers:

Black is for a fact imperfect SSJB level. Kale’s is not specified, but imperfect SSJB is the best guess. Goku went straight to Blue on her, and unlike Anime Goku, Manga Goku only transforms if he needs to.

Zamasu is far below SSJ3, but at least around SSJ2 since a tired Goku chose to fight him with SSJG instead of 1 or 2 to save stamina. We have no idea how strong Caulifla is, but I trust the anime saying she’s on pair with Goku. All we know is SSJ Cabba > Base Caulifla > Base Cabba.

So yeah, they’re more or less the same. Caulifla might be weaker than Zamasu, but this explains why Merged Zamasu rivals Goku while Kefla only rivals Gohan.

How do you think Rumsshi's Battle Roar worked then in terms of powerlevel? It’s able to knock out anyone at Supreme Kai level, and even temporarily stun a fellow God of Destruction. In which level do you think the breakpoint between knock out and stun makes sense?

By the way, Beerus confirms Vegeta is at a God of Destruction level when he fights against his completed Super Saiyan Blue form, Vegeta just wasn’t at Beerus level but he could challenge other Gods of Destruction for the position. Iwan also claims that Goku using his Super Saiyan God form is also at the level of a God of Destruction, implying there is a sizable gap between those beings, with Beerus and Quitela being on top.

It’s more the fact that Goku wasn’t using his power. SSJB Goku is obviously going to take attacks better than Base Goku, that’s what transformations are there for. If you want a comparison though, then maybe it’s like an Explosive Wave? Goku was standing hundreds of feet away, he might have been KO’d if he was closer. Whis said the GoDs were barely standing, after all.

I think the breaking point is anyone’s guess. Goku can do it without transforming, most (or all) Kaioshin can’t. If I were to guess based on my numbers, CG Goku could do it, but CG Vegeta couldn’t.

Ch. 27, pg. 34.5
Context: Beerus defeats Vegeta with ease after getting serious
You could probably be a candidate for a God of Destruction in another universe…”

Vegeta could be a good candidate for the lesser GoDs. That’s scrapping the bottom of that level. Paralyzing someone with a scream is very impressive, but knowing how power levels work, it’s probably not something that requires being millions of times stronger.

[Hugo Boss]

It’s more the fact that Goku wasn’t using his power. SSJB Goku is obviously going to take attacks better than Base Goku, that’s what transformations are there for. If you want a comparison though, then maybe it’s like an Explosive Wave? Goku was standing hundreds of feet away, he might have been KO’d if he was closer. Whis said the GoDs were barely standing, after all.

I think the breaking point is anyone’s guess. Goku can do it without transforming, most (or all) Kaioshin can’t. If I were to guess based on my numbers, CG Goku could do it, but CG Vegeta couldn’t.

The fact that you can’t pinpoint exactly where the line is draw (I suppose between Cell Games Goku and Cell Games Vegeta is a shot in the dark) makes me think perhaps this is not supposed to be read way too much as some people usually do.

Vegeta could be a good candidate for the lesser GoDs. That’s scrapping the bottom of that level.

I don’t read that as scrapping the bottom. Beerus only says “a God of Destruction in another universe”, he doesn’t say an universe with the weakest God of Destruction. Scrapping the bottom is probably something you could say about Super Saiyan God, as this is the form that Goku was using when Iwan said his fight against Toppo was at the level of a fight between Gods of Destruction.

Paralyzing someone with a scream is very impressive, but knowing how power levels work, it’s probably not something that requires being millions of times stronger.

A possibility that comes to mind is that Supreme Kais’ body is not suited for traditional combat, while Goku and Toppo’s muscles are used to withstand heavy shocks, since they are seasoned warriors. The Angels are unaffected probably because ultra instinct makes their body extremely tough, unlike the Gods of Destruction that don’t have that ability.

[Skar]

Where do you think the GoDs and GoD tier guys like Jiren, Broly, Goku, Beast Gohan, etc would rank if we used the Freeza army as a scale? For example:

1st form Freeza: Beerus

Between Ginyu-1st form Freeza: Blue Gogeta, Vegetto, Broly, UI Goku?

Ginyu: Jiren, other GoDs

Ginyu Force:

Elite (Zarbon, Dodoria):

Raditz: SSJG (or maybe the next tier)