Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

One thing this month's chapter has proven: Toyotaro clearly isn't trying to branch away from the movie's continuity at all. Everything is beat-for-beat the exact same as the film, right down to Piccolo's identical dialogue about the Gammas' power.

However, it is expanding on what's already there (going so far as to include cut scenes), and Goku did imply that Broly is still just learning the basics as a martial artist. So I can see his raw power being above Beerus's while still being beneath the overall fighting capability of Moro, Granolah, Beerus, etc.

Yup. I was wrong, but I always knew it was a possibility. Looks like Uchida bringing up Broly in that Q&A wasn't an accident.

I can get past that "Moro is the toughest" line, he's tougher than Broly because they can't fuse and beat him, but this makes the Granolah Saga really confusing. Was Broly just counted as a god because he's got the power of one?

Broly always trains regardless, he trained on Vampa for about 40 years, then after he is sent back due to the wish I guarantee he trained some more. So 2-3 years later of course he would be even stronger than when Goku and Vegeta saw him last and we don't know what his training methods are. Jiren also trains like a madman, his training alone got him to the level he was at and Whis noted that Jiren's potential is still immeasurable, showing a remarkable growth rate as the more he struggles, the more he adapts and grows. So in the current time I would bet Jiren yet again is on an entirely different level. Jiren is basically Superman and Batman got combined and turned into a Dragon Ball character so him yet again being a wall of monstrous power would make sense considering this supposed immeasurable potential.

In the new chapter Goku or Broly say he's just started training and he hasn't even gotten the basics of it yet. Before that he was just sparring with Paragus and Freeza said it was worthless.

Jiren is definitely being hyped because he's been training, at least manga-wise. But he hasn't been brought up yet so I wouldn't speculate about him.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

See, all this Moro/Granolah/Gas stuff doesn't apply as strongly to the anime, as the anime's Tournament of Power falls in line well with the movies that are its direct sequels.

Jiren is an absolute monster in the anime, and Ultra Instinct was as well. Both being kept as pedestals in the animated version of events alongside Broly and the Gods of Destruction in general is quite fitting and a bit more consistent on that front.

The anime is also more consistent with the Superhero movie events with Gohan, as it was the anime that established Gohan's ability to lose access to Ultimate and gain it back as an alternate powered-up state to his base and Super Saiyan forms.

In a bit of an ironic twist, Toriyama kept the power scale relatively stable, with Jiren, Broly, Cell Max, Beerus, other Gods of Destruction, and Ultra Instinct all remaining relevant to one another in the basic outlines of the cross-media plots.

[Mr Baggins]

Jiren isn't supposed to be an "absolute monster", though. That's not the point of his fighting style. Super Hero confirms outright that he wasn't actually that much stronger than Goku or Vegeta during their fight, then explains that what made him so exceptional was his ability to use his power as efficiently as possible, and never more than necessary – something previously only mentioned in the manga's Tournament of Power rather than the anime's, funnily enough.

As for Broly, his gimmick is that he's DB's Hulk; but Hulk isn't the best Avenger just because he's equipped with the most raw strength. Moro, Granolah, and Beerus all have specialized fighting techniques that can put him out of commission pretty quickly, while Broly himself is still a very inexperienced martial artist. Jiren and Broly are polar opposites in that sense.

We're evidently reaching a point in the franchise where match-ups matter a lot more now. Broly, for example, is more useful against your Cell Maxes than your oneshot Hakai moves or ki-sapping abilities. Jiren can probably take on some opponents physically stronger than him. It's all about the individual characteristics.

[shadd21]

On that subject, Do you guys think Beerus is stronger than Goku and Vegeta through actual raw power, or just though technique (Ultra Ego)?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

On that subject, Do you guys think Beerus is stronger than Goku and Vegeta through actual raw power, or just though technique (Ultra Ego)?

Both.

Bear in mind that, in terms of raw power, Beerus and other Gods of Destruction are top of the line. It's rare for mortals to attain raw power that eclipses them, hence why it was such a big deal when Jiren started the trend of having an explicit level of power greater than that of a God of Destruction; this kept going with Broly and Cell Max.

Even Vegeta's lines don't necessarily contradict that, as we know how massively strong Vegeta and Goku are anyways, plus all the other lines from Whis and marketing blurbs that tell of Jiren's might. His raw power is equal or greater than that of a God of Destruction, but it's focused further through expert technique to make him nearly unbeatable without a proper counter like Ultra Instinct.

But in those cases, that's where I think his Ultra Ego (applicable in more than just the battle technique sense ) enhances him even further on top of his massive power level.

[Koitsukai]

The toughest line has the semantic loophole, although isn't Broly just as tough? Moro can take a beating better than Broly but he might not hit as hard.

The Granola arc, which makes even less sense now(the whole premise was dishonest), can be explained with Broly already being at a level the DBs can't give you: if you can't reach Beerus, you can't reach Broly either.

In raw power, I guess, Beerus should be still above Goku and Vegeta and even Zombie Gas, his technique is about increasing his power, unlike UI that increases speed, defense, accuracy, etc. Like Jiren said "that's not real power".
In that regard, if it works like it works for Vegeta, then the technique makes Beerus an actual moving goalpost, and by now his raw power should be above everybody sans Broly.

[shadd21]

How strong would a hypothetical Perfect/Completed Cell Max be in comparison to Beerus?

[QuakingStar]

How strong would a hypothetical Perfect/Completed Cell Max be in comparison to Beerus?

His power was completed, the mind controlling program they were going to use to control him was not. I still think Beerus in the manga is stronger than all of them, Frieza is above them all except Beast Gohan and I still think Beerus would whoop them.

[Kazuya Mishima]

So when Piccolo says the Gammas are on par with Goku and Vegeta, what does that mean specifically?

That they are Ultra Instinct Goku and Ultra Ego Vegeta level? That seems unlikely and I don't know if it would be safe to say it wouldn't be including that because Piccolo hasn't seen it?

He did see Ultra Instinct Goku fight Moro but he was on such a difference level to Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta that saying the Gammas are on par with those two doesn't make much sense as Goku and Vegeta were on separate levels.

So then does it mean the Gammas are as strong as Ultra Instinct Sign Goku and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta because they were on par and Piccolo did see both of those.

Or is it something else?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So when Piccolo says the Gammas are on par with Goku and Vegeta, what does that mean specifically?

That they are Ultra Instinct Goku and Ultra Ego Vegeta level? That seems unlikely and I don't know if it would be safe to say it wouldn't be including that because Piccolo hasn't seen it?

He did see Ultra Instinct Goku fight Moro but he was on such a difference level to Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta that saying the Gammas are on par with those two doesn't make much sense as Goku and Vegeta were on separate levels.

So then does it mean the Gammas are as strong as Ultra Instinct Sign Goku and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta because they were on par and Piccolo did see both of those.

Or is it something else?

Definitely Super Saiyan Blue. That was the highest accessible level portrayed in the Broly movie, and is the level that Ultimate Gohan was approaching himself pre-DBS:SH.

With Gohan realizing his potential once again during the Superhero movie, it makes sense that his reawakened Ultimate state is now fully as strong or even stronger than SSB now.

[Kazuya Mishima]

So why did Piccolo say they were on par with Goku and Vegeta if he knows full well they'd crush em in a heartbeat?

[Koitsukai]

What do you guys make it of base Goku fighting base Broly? they should definitely not be on par.

Goku's heightened base form seen when he arrived on planet Cereal actually closed the gap between their base forms? could we infer Goku's current base form from this?

[QuakingStar]

So when Piccolo says the Gammas are on par with Goku and Vegeta, what does that mean specifically?

That they are Ultra Instinct Goku and Ultra Ego Vegeta level? That seems unlikely and I don't know if it would be safe to say it wouldn't be including that because Piccolo hasn't seen it?

He did see Ultra Instinct Goku fight Moro but he was on such a difference level to Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta that saying the Gammas are on par with those two doesn't make much sense as Goku and Vegeta were on separate levels.

So then does it mean the Gammas are as strong as Ultra Instinct Sign Goku and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta because they were on par and Piccolo did see both of those.

Or is it something else?

Definitely Super Saiyan Blue. That was the highest accessible level portrayed in the Broly movie, and is the level that Ultimate Gohan was approaching himself pre-DBS:SH.

With Gohan realizing his potential once again during the Superhero movie, it makes sense that his reawakened Ultimate state is now fully as strong or even stronger than SSB now.

Why would the SH manga be comparing them to Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta from the Broly movie? Piccolo saw them each using Blue against Moro so at the very earliest he is referring to the Gammas at that level.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So when Piccolo says the Gammas are on par with Goku and Vegeta, what does that mean specifically?

That they are Ultra Instinct Goku and Ultra Ego Vegeta level? That seems unlikely and I don't know if it would be safe to say it wouldn't be including that because Piccolo hasn't seen it?

He did see Ultra Instinct Goku fight Moro but he was on such a difference level to Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta that saying the Gammas are on par with those two doesn't make much sense as Goku and Vegeta were on separate levels.

So then does it mean the Gammas are as strong as Ultra Instinct Sign Goku and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta because they were on par and Piccolo did see both of those.

Or is it something else?

Definitely Super Saiyan Blue. That was the highest accessible level portrayed in the Broly movie, and is the level that Ultimate Gohan was approaching himself pre-DBS:SH.

With Gohan realizing his potential once again during the Superhero movie, it makes sense that his reawakened Ultimate state is now fully as strong or even stronger than SSB now.

Why would the SH manga be comparing them to Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta from the Broly movie? Piccolo saw them each using Blue against Moro so at the very earliest he is referring to the Gammas at that level.

Toyotaro is sticking to the beats of the SH movie, which itself only really took from the anime and the Broly movie for basic reference.

I don't think Toyotaro is making any actual statements himself, just reinforcing the movie's take, a take which focuses more on Goku and Vegeta in their normal god forms as their "standard" highest levels.

[QuakingStar]

Definitely Super Saiyan Blue. That was the highest accessible level portrayed in the Broly movie, and is the level that Ultimate Gohan was approaching himself pre-DBS:SH.

With Gohan realizing his potential once again during the Superhero movie, it makes sense that his reawakened Ultimate state is now fully as strong or even stronger than SSB now.

Why would the SH manga be comparing them to Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta from the Broly movie? Piccolo saw them each using Blue against Moro so at the very earliest he is referring to the Gammas at that level.

Toyotaro is sticking to the beats of the SH movie, which itself only really took from the anime and the Broly movie for basic reference.

I don't think Toyotaro is making any actual statements himself, just reinforcing the movie's take, a take which focuses more on Goku and Vegeta in their normal god forms as their "standard" highest levels.

It may end up the same, but it's the manga adaptation making it in continuity with the manga. Besides that the promotional material for the movie referring to Gohans evolution goes up to the Moro Arc and shows Gohan from the battle with Moro on Earth. The SH manga is most definitely at bare minimum comparing Moro Arc SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta to tge Gammas.

[Hugo Boss]

So when Piccolo says the Gammas are on par with Goku and Vegeta, what does that mean specifically?

That’s an interesting question, because Piccolo doesn’t know what happened on Planet Cereal, but should be basing his deduction on what he saw in the battle against Moro.

It’s a bit difficult to tell based on how the fight in this chapter unfolded. For instance, I don’t see Piccolo doing to Moro what he did to Gamma #2, so Gamma #2 doesn’t seem like is Ultra level, despite not fighting at full strength. Piccolo probably means Super Saiyan Blue then? Realistically that’s how a fight between them would be designed.

The problem is that Goku and Vegeta were much stronger than Gohan when he was at his best in the battle against Moro, even with just Super Saiyan Blue, and based on the movie portrayal of their fight Gohan can fight Gamma #1 at full strength more than evenly. So, it wouldn’t be possible for the Gammas to rival Super Saiyan Blue from Moro Arc either.

Considering this (apparent) inconsistency, until further clarification, I will just take it with a grain of salt.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So if we’re taking the “toughest” statement as not indicative of power. Then how strong is 73 Moro? I have a hard time seeing him below Jiren. But the idea of UI Goku tanking Jiren like he did with Moro doesn’t sit well with me… Could Beerus tank Belmond like that? I don’t think so. Moro broke his hand punching him.

On that subject, Do you guys think Beerus is stronger than Goku and Vegeta through actual raw power, or just though technique (Ultra Ego)?

Ultra Ego is a technique that raises power. I could see Hakai being his last strong suit, but from what we have seen Beerus has yet to be surpassed in any way.

So when Piccolo says the Gammas are on par with Goku and Vegeta, what does that mean specifically?

I don’t think it’s even meant to be specific. Piccolo is just saying they’re strong, so strong they’d need Earth’s strongest fighters to defeat them.

What do you guys make it of base Goku fighting base Broly? they should definitely not be on par.

Goku's heightened base form seen when he arrived on planet Cereal actually closed the gap between their base forms? could we infer Goku's current base form from this?

It’s just sparring. He’s teaching Broly self control.

[ZombieVito]

So when Piccolo says the Gammas are on par with Goku and Vegeta, what does that mean specifically?

That’s an interesting question, because Piccolo doesn’t know what happened on Planet Cereal, but should be basing his deduction on what he saw in the battle against Moro.

It’s a bit difficult to tell based on how the fight in this chapter unfolded. For instance, I don’t see Piccolo doing to Moro what he did to Gamma #2, so Gamma #2 doesn’t seem like is Ultra level, despite not fighting at full strength. Piccolo probably means Super Saiyan Blue then? Realistically that’s how a fight between them would be designed.

The problem is that Goku and Vegeta were much stronger than Gohan when he was at his best in the battle against Moro, even with just Super Saiyan Blue, and based on the movie portrayal of their fight Gohan can fight Gamma #1 at full strength more than evenly. So, it wouldn’t be possible for the Gammas to rival Super Saiyan Blue from Moro Arc either.

Considering this (apparent) inconsistency, until further clarification, I will just take it with a grain of salt.

Didn't Gohan get a rage boost against Moro? Maybe it was permanent.

Or maybe he simply grew stronger when he thought Pan was being hurt or by learning the Makankosappo.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Well we know Gamma 1 and 2 were equal to Ultimate Gohan.

How strong is Piccolo supposed to be in the manga now? Is he stronger than Android 17?

Ultimate Gohan was the strongest on earth aside from Goku and Vegeta. He wasn't Super Saiyan Blue level though.

[Mr Baggins]

Piccolo is obviously referring to Goku and Vegeta in Blue, same as the movie. In universe, it's the best form they're equal in (to Piccolo's knowledge); Piccolo doesn't know about Ultra Ego and can't even sense Ultra Instinct. Out of universe, Toyotaro is just being faithful to the movie's script which was written before Toriyama worked on the post-Broly arcs in the manga.

It ain't rocket science.

As for Gohan, his whole gimmick as a fighter is getting angry and suddenly being stronger than anyone imagined. It's hardly surprising that his Ultimate form against Gamma 1 would boost him to Moro arc Blue levels, though I don't think you actually need to assume any of them are quite that strong to begin with.

It’s just sparring. He’s teaching Broly self control.

Also, this. It's made clear that neither of them were going all out even in base, so there's no need to read into it that deeply.