Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:56 pm
I respect the Daizenshuu’s take, but I think it’s merely based on Piccolo’s controversial response to his friends after he dropped his match against Shin, which you can figure it was because of the memory he had when he was Earth’s God. So, the most likely explanation is that he withdrew out of respect, something he wouldn’t do when he was King Piccolo.
The point of Shin’s character was that he wasn’t as powerful as it was initially thought. For instance, Piccolo could easily deal with Babidi, while Shin would have a little of trouble. It depends on his match ups.
Piccolo literally says Shin is dimensions apart from him.
Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.3-4
Context: after Piccolo resigns from his and Kaioshin's match
Goku: “That much, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions…are too different…”
Kuririn: “Yo-you’re kidding, right? Stop joking around! I-I’ve got to fight him next.”
Note: Piccolo’s line is a pretty standard way of saying that someone is stronger than you. You can find a lot of instances of people being described as in “a different dimension” throughout these quotes, like Tenshinhan talking about Super Saiyan Goku, or the narrator describing final form Freeza. In Viz the line is made vaguer (“He is a different order of being”), which makes it sound like Piccolo could just be talking about how Kaioshin is a super-god, rather than about his strength per-say. Anyway, though Piccolo is pretty much flat-out saying Kaioshin is way stronger than him here, you could still argue that he's either mistaken or lying...I guess.
And yes, this is a power statement since Goku's question was.
ZombieVito wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:31 pm
Piccolo literally says Shin is dimensions apart from him.
Yes, this is what he said to excuse his withdrawal, but we know for a fact that Piccolo can’t feel Shin’s ki, so he based his guess on a feeling, given how confident Shin was acting in front of him and because he heard his thoughts. He later went to talk with Shin in private to confirm his suspicions, which only reinforces that he didn’t know exactly how tough Shin could be. It turned out that Shin wasn’t that impressive, despite being a god.
They weren't dimensions apart after all, Shin at best is Cell Games SS level and Piccolo is Cell Jr. level. That's not worlds apart, just one tier above.
However, as deities, they were worlds apart. That's why he stepped down, not because of a power gap.
This twist was for the audience, expecting a super strong character only to end up with THE god.
People in Dragon Ball Super can tell how strong gods are all the time without sensing Ki. Shin established telepathic link with Piccolo and Piccolo instantly noticed something was up. If he can figure out his identity, why not his power? Goku asks if Piccolo is strong, if Piccolo didn’t know that he could easily say so. Something like, “It’s not that…”.
Shin wasn’t as strong as expected… for the Saiyans. Piccolo is nowhere near Boo Saga SSJ1 level. He’s probably Semi Perfect Cell or Super Vegeta level. Even if we give Piccolo a boost to Cell Jr level, that is certainly dimensions below Cell Games Goku. Vegeta was shitting himself to that level. Does anyone doubt Goku could take Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo at once in the Cell Games? I don’t. That was a Goku vs Ginyu Force level difference.
Also, Shin’s techniques are his power. When you sense someone’s Ki, it doesn’t always mean they can punch this hard. Kibito being a match for Gohan but failing to budge the Z Sword was proof of this.
Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!
This probably have been already discussed here, but since RoF (2015), Goku explains that Blue is basically Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan... that could mean SSJB = Super Saiyan God x50?
Also have anyone ever tried to do a list based on the Kili meter?
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
Do you guys have specific power level requirements for destructive capabilities? I.e. 300 to destroy the moon without a ki blast, 710 to destroy Mercury, ~4,000 to destroy Earth, 40,000 to destroy Jupiter, and so on.
Noah wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 10:42 pm
This probably have been already discussed here, but since RoF (2015), Goku explains that Blue is basically Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan... that could mean SSJB = Super Saiyan God x50?
Also have anyone ever tried to do a list based on the Kili meter?
Yeah. I always took it as SSB being 50 times SSG. Rose is also said to be Black's version of SS so that fits as well with him being already a god.
Yuji wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:45 pm
SSB can't be 50x SSG going by the manga. God is stronger than Blue at 10% so perfected Blue is at most less than 10x stronger.
Yuji wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:45 pm
SSB can't be 50x SSG going by the manga. God is stronger than Blue at 10% so perfected Blue is at most less than 10x stronger.
Complete Super Saiyan Blue can be 50 times.
Complete is just implied to be Blue at 100% all the time.
Blue’s aura leaking out is basically an indication that power is being wasted. And the more it is used more power is being wasted, that’s why they have to switch between forms to waste little amounts.
Containing the aura inside makes the form complete in the sense that it can operate at 100% for longer. It’s far more efficient than the method Vegeta came up.
Having said this, Blue Evolved doesn’t care about any of that.
Yuji wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 3:00 am
Complete is just implied to be Blue at 100% all the time.
That's simply impossible. Goku vs Fused Zamasu and Vegeta vs Beerus just can't happen like they do if that was the case.
Why not? The moment incomplete Blue is activated, it's never at 100%. It's depleting energy by the second.
Vegeta is specifically stated by Goku to not waste any stamina when he's doing his switch technique and yet Fused Zamasu beats him easily the second the fight.
Fused Zamasu is stated to have a big fusion boost by official supplemental material so Goku has to have greater power than regular Blue in his complete form if he matched him.
Also just look at Beerus vs Vegeta. He's completely hopeless at the start (He catches his initial punch like it's nothing) but manages to pressure Beerus a little after activating completed Blue.
The form gives a power boost over normal Blue. There's no other way the events can happen otherwise.
FPSSJ4_Goku wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:37 pm
Do you guys have specific power level requirements for destructive capabilities? I.e. 300 to destroy the moon without a ki blast, 710 to destroy Mercury, ~4,000 to destroy Earth, 40,000 to destroy Jupiter, and so on.
I was thinking about making an In universe thread on that subject. EML states a PL of 10k can destroy a planet but thats all I got.
I've tried to scale the Granola arc, still using my previous scaling for the ToP and for the Moro arc, so here goes nothing:
ToP and Moro arc for reference:
Spoiler:
ToP SSB: 15T
Blue KK: 20-25T
SSBE Vegeta: 30T
Goku Sign: 50 T
--UI: 75 T
Jiren (supressed): 40 T
--Powered up vs Omen: 50 T
--FP: 60 T
---Final power up: 75 T (gradual growth)
FPSS Broly: 75 T (this guy's place here is subject to change, once Toyo goes over his place in line)
Moro 7-3: 90 T
UI Goku: 120 T
Planet Moro: 125 T
Giant Goku: 130 T
Pre-Wish
Spoiler:
Granola: 300,000
Elec: 100,000
Maki: 350,000
Oil: 300,000
Gas: 500,000
(Toyo said they were between the Ginyu Force and 1st form Freeza, Granny was sure he could take on Freeza now, probably having his 1st form in mind, however that interview implies Granny was completely off the mark)
(Elec sends Oil first, and Maki second (another hint at her being 2nd best?) to test Granola, so I guess Granny was weaker than them before the wish)
1st round on Cereal-Sei
Spoiler:
Base Goku: 1,500M
+UI: 70,000 M
SS: 75,000 M
Base Vegeta: 1,500 M
SS: 75,000M
SSG: 6 T
+ UI: 10 T
SSB: 60 T
+ UI: 80 T
UI: 140 T and dropping
Granola Clone (suppressed): 6 T --- 50 T
-- FP Granola Clone: 60 T—85 T
Real Granola: 130 T
Vegeta vs Granola:
Spoiler:
SSBE: 80-100 T (he grew during the fight enough to unlock a new form)
UE: 125-140 T
Granola: 130 T
FP Granola: 150 T
Tired FP Granola: 120 T
Tired UE Vegeta: 100 T
2nd round SSB UI Goku: 90 T (slight improvement in evasive skills, I guess. The improvement might not be in power but in efficiency)
Strongest in the universe arrives
Spoiler:
Adult Gas(restricted to weaponry): 150 T
unrestricted: 160 T (still above Granny, but the gap was closed due to Granny being more experienced with shunkanido)
unleashed Gas: 180 T
FP Granola: 150 T
FP Gas: 180 T
SSB+UI: 100 T (the trend seems to be Goku improving his UI in his SSB form, so he is not getting stronger but sharper, thus his efficiency reaches 100 T. After all, Gas goes at him for real and he manages to survive his rampage, I'll assume that + by Goku's excellent shunkanido control saved his ass)
FP GAS: 180 T
UI Goku: 150 T and dropping
UE Vegeta: 150-175 T
Gas vs Goku
Spoiler:
Fullest FP Gas: 183 T
TUI GOKU: 187 T (I’ll go with Geets being weaker, he tells Goku he will prove he is stronger next time after the fight)
Old Gas: 200 T
Granola: 150 T
Giant UI Goku: 210 T
Actual strongest in the universe arrives
Spoiler:
UE Vegeta: 185
TUI Goku: 187
Zombie Gas: 210T
Black Freeza: 300T (He probably can oneshot Zombie Gas with less thab 300 T, but I just rounded it up. The power he displayed could’ve been 250 T or a little higher, but 300 T works at showing just how out of everybody's league he is.
Bonus: Beerus: 300 T
I'll go out on a limb and say Freeza has reached Beerus. In this case, and considering Vermouth was surpassed by Jiren with a PL around 60 T, this would make Beerus 5x stronger than Vermouth. Even if Beerus caps at 200 T and was surpassed by Zombie Gas and Black Freeza, he'd still be like 4x stronger than his fellow GoD. I don't think you can have him less than 2x stronger.
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 11:05 am
I've tried to scale the Granola arc, still using my previous scaling for the ToP and for the Moro arc, so here goes nothing:
ToP and Moro arc for reference:
Spoiler:
ToP SSB: 15T
Blue KK: 20-25T
SSBE Vegeta: 30T
Goku Sign: 50 T
--UI: 75 T
Jiren (supressed): 40 T
--Powered up vs Omen: 50 T
--FP: 60 T
---Final power up: 75 T (gradual growth)
FPSS Broly: 75 T (this guy's place here is subject to change, once Toyo goes over his place in line)
Moro 7-3: 90 T
UI Goku: 120 T
Planet Moro: 125 T
Giant Goku: 130 T
Pre-Wish
Spoiler:
Granola: 300,000
Elec: 100,000
Maki: 350,000
Oil: 300,000
Gas: 500,000
(Toyo said they were between the Ginyu Force and 1st form Freeza, Granny was sure he could take on Freeza now, probably having his 1st form in mind, however that interview implies Granny was completely off the mark)
(Elec sends Oil first, and Maki second (another hint at her being 2nd best?) to test Granola, so I guess Granny was weaker than them before the wish)
1st round on Cereal-Sei
Spoiler:
Base Goku: 1,500M
+UI: 70,000 M
SS: 75,000 M
Base Vegeta: 1,500 M
SS: 75,000M
SSG: 6 T
+ UI: 10 T
SSB: 60 T
+ UI: 80 T
UI: 140 T and dropping
Granola Clone (suppressed): 6 T --- 50 T
-- FP Granola Clone: 60 T—85 T
Real Granola: 130 T
Vegeta vs Granola:
Spoiler:
SSBE: 80-100 T (he grew during the fight enough to unlock a new form)
UE: 125-140 T
Granola: 130 T
FP Granola: 150 T
Tired FP Granola: 120 T
Tired UE Vegeta: 100 T
2nd round SSB UI Goku: 90 T (slight improvement in evasive skills, I guess. The improvement might not be in power but in efficiency)
Strongest in the universe arrives
Spoiler:
Adult Gas(restricted to weaponry): 150 T
unrestricted: 160 T (still above Granny, but the gap was closed due to Granny being more experienced with shunkanido)
unleashed Gas: 180 T
FP Granola: 150 T
FP Gas: 180 T
SSB+UI: 100 T (the trend seems to be Goku improving his UI in his SSB form, so he is not getting stronger but sharper, thus his efficiency reaches 100 T. After all, Gas goes at him for real and he manages to survive his rampage, I'll assume that + by Goku's excellent shunkanido control saved his ass)
FP GAS: 180 T
UI Goku: 150 T and dropping
UE Vegeta: 150-175 T
Gas vs Goku
Spoiler:
Fullest FP Gas: 183 T
TUI GOKU: 187 T (I’ll go with Geets being weaker, he tells Goku he will prove he is stronger next time after the fight)
Old Gas: 200 T
Granola: 150 T
Giant UI Goku: 210 T
Actual strongest in the universe arrives
Spoiler:
UE Vegeta: 185
TUI Goku: 187
Zombie Gas: 210T
Black Freeza: 300T (He probably can oneshot Zombie Gas with less thab 300 T, but I just rounded it up. The power he displayed could’ve been 250 T or a little higher, but 300 T works at showing just how out of everybody's league he is.
Bonus: Beerus: 300 T
I'll go out on a limb and say Freeza has reached Beerus. In this case, and considering Vermouth was surpassed by Jiren with a PL around 60 T, this would make Beerus 5x stronger than Vermouth. Even if Beerus caps at 200 T and was surpassed by Zombie Gas and Black Freeza, he'd still be like 4x stronger than his fellow GoD. I don't think you can have him less than 2x stronger.
I think you could use a bigger difference between UI and SSJB. Like, SSJB Goku is already above Jiren? Sign or Silver UI being at least 10x SSJB makes a lot more sense. I don't think SSJB Goku should last more than a second against a serious 73 Moro, at least not without his SSJB+UI gimmick.
Also I think you should lower pre-wish Granolah to 250k, or raise Oil a bit. Oil is most likely stronger than him.
Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!
So according to SDBH, Android 17 from the ToP (anime) is equal in power to Super 17 from GT. There is no real reason to take it as a fact but just for fun I wanted to see how that would scale things between Super and GT. The thing is, while anime A17 is very ambigous on his power, I have never been able to exactly guess where Super 17 stands either, as honestly its fight with Goku is dumb and out of character just for the sake of drama. Similarly, Hell Fighter 17 never did much outside of fighting Base Vegeta iirc.
Where do you guys have them? What difference would you put between the 17s and their fusion?
English is not my first language. Please excuse my gramatical mistakes.
MisteryOne wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 3:19 pm
So according to SDBH, Android 17 from the ToP (anime) is equal in power to Super 17 from GT. There is no real reason to take it as a fact but just for fun I wanted to see how that would scale things between Super and GT. The thing is, while anime A17 is very ambigous on his power, I have never been able to exactly guess where Super 17 stands either, as honestly its fight with Goku is dumb and out of character just for the sake of drama. Similarly, Hell Fighter 17 never did much outside of fighting Base Vegeta iirc.
Where do you guys have them? What difference would you put between the 17s and their fusion?
Super 17 was only as strong as SS4 Goku thanks to absorbing his energy attacks repeatedly(which stupidly Goku never picked up on, GT's writers smh). It was also never stated Super 17 would keep that power-up. This is probably just normal Super 17 without energy absorbed to boost him.
