Goku Staying Dead Was Perfect

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goku's attempts at passing the torch didn't work out in the end though. Trying it with Gohan resulted in his own death and Gohan wound up slacking off in the 7 year interim; and trying it with Trunks and Goten instead of killing Buu when he had the chance resulted in pretty much everyone dying because he didn't take into account how young, inexperienced, and immature Trunks and Goten were (And how could he? He had only known Goten and this Trunks for a couple hours at that point).

Toriyama mentioned in an interview that he redid the ending for the Kanzenban to indicate that Goku's battles were over and the next generation was taking over. I think the subtext of that statement is that Toriyama never wanted Dragon Ball to continue without Goku, probably because the one time he tried doing that, he couldn't make it work.

Not what I was getting at. I have zero interest in DB without Goku. That wouldn't be Dragon Ball. I also don't care about passing the torch. I'm talking about him teaching. It's a different journey for him and forwards HIS story about growth.

Lumping these two together since they're mostly the same thing.

I agree 100%. Goku is Dragon Ball. I like to think of OG as Goku's story and growth, and while he still gets his share of character development, it's largely about his legacy (See how he only beats the bad guy once: Freeza, and even then he was absent most of the arc). What Toriyama did with Gohan in the Boo Saga was a failed experiment, it was destined to fail, but he had the perfect set up to try.

Also, I thought the Kanzeban ending only added that panel with Vegeta? It looked more like a hook for stories beyond that point, at least in the reader's imagination.

[Koitsukai]

For Goku's excuse of "I attract the bad guys" to really track, it would have to be the case that, were you to replace Goku with (someone more like) Gohan, the bad guys wouldn't have showed up.

The Crane School showed up at the Tenkaichi Budokai because they wanted revenge on whoever 'killed' Tao Pai Pai. Piccolo showed up at the Tenkaichi Budokai because he wanted revenge on Goku for killing Piccolo Daimao. Dr. Gero made the artificial humans because he wanted revenge on Goku for defeating the Red Ribbon Army. Were (someone more like) Gohan in Goku's shoes during the Red Ribbon Army and Piccolo Daimao arcs, then he, too, would have 'killed' Tao Pai Pai and Piccolo Daimao, and defeated the Red Ribbon Army. In these cases, it's not "Goku" attracting bad guys, it's people stopping bad guys attracting bad guys. Swapping out for (someone more like) Gohan does nothing to abate this.

For Raditz, that's definitely something Goku attracted, but it's not through any fault of his own. He didn't choose to be born a Saiyan or to be sent to Earth. Besides, let's say that Goku died and "passed the torch" to someone prior to Raditz's arrival; Raditz still would have arrived! So if there's anyone out there in space who wants to come to Earth because they know Goku was sent there as a baby, then swapping out for (someone more like) Gohan does nothing to abate this.

The only real case of "attracting a bad guy" that Goku's distinctly at fault for is Freeza after Namek. But even that's a little fuzzy. Goku did make a bunch of calls during his fight with Freeza in service of getting a good fight out of him after becoming a Super Saiyan, and Goku even tells Trunks that he let him go. But.......Goku still blasted the shit out of him after giving Freeza some energy. Bit of sloppy writing there, but I guess maybe Goku was implying that he held back during that final blast and knew that it didn't kill Freeza? The scene itself doesn't come off that way, with Goku's somber and disappointed expression. But either way, Freeza is the only real case we can point to of "Goku is the one attracting the bad guys", due to his own distinct actions and character.

Gohan, as The Earth's Protector™ is also going to stop bad guys, and these bad guys are going to seek revenge. Or their next of kin will. Or their associates will.

But all that to the side, I feel like the final battle with Cell showed quite the opposite of "Gohan is a reliable protector". Remember when Goku first had to be The Earth's Protector™? Do you remember him needing his hand held from the afterlife in order to get the job done? I don't. Gohan is a wild card whose full strength cannot be accessed reliably and at will. The Earth is lucky that Cell takes after Goku as much as he does, because a less battle-crazed villain wouldn't have sought to push Gohan's buttons to power him up. And after all was said and done, and he had his full strength, he still needed Goku's words of encouragement from the afterlife in order to seal the deal. I think that would be a pretty limp place to end the story. If Dragon Ball were to end with Gohan as the protagonist and The Earth's Protector™ with Goku dead and gone, then you would at least want one additional story where Gohan has actually proven himself. It's one thing for Gohan to struggle with something his first time, but if we want things to feel nice and tied up then it'd be more satisfying and conclusive if we see him grow past that. By the time Cell is killed, he hasn't grown past it, his flaws have only just been fully laid bare.

All of this.

Gohan isn't perfect but he's a still a better protector than Goku because, like I said in my analysis, he won't give bad guys the chance to cause a disaster.

Cell very nearly destroyed Earth because Gohan was too busy toying with Cell to end the fight right away. His first stint as The World's Strongest™ and he already gave the bad guy the chance to cause a disaster.

The only reason Earth didn't get destroyed was because Goku was there.

To this I'll add that even before seeing 16's head being stomped, Gohan was basically saying "let's talk things out, I don't want to do this, just let it go". Everybody was getting tortured and he was just "don't, please". A pacifist savior is a recipe for disaster.
And I don't even want to mention the fact that he has a glass mentality even as a SS2, I've never seen a towel being thrown so fast.

If that isn't enough, there comes the Buu arc where a much more matured Gohan proves Goku wrong, making the same mistakes vs Super Buu. Thank Kami Babidi came to Earth the same day Goku was around. Without Goku, no Vegeta, and nobody to save Gohan from Dabura.

[Majin Buu]

I agree 100%. Goku is Dragon Ball. I like to think of OG as Goku's story and growth, and while he still gets his share of character development, it's largely about his legacy (See how he only beats the bad guy once: Freeza, and even then he was absent most of the arc). What Toriyama did with Gohan in the Boo Saga was a failed experiment, it was destined to fail, but he had the perfect set up to try.

I've never agreed with the "Pre-Z Dragon Ball is Goku's story and Z isn't" mindset. Goku might be out of the action for much of Z's arcs, but everything more or less still revolves around him.

Also, I thought the Kanzeban ending only added that panel with Vegeta? It looked more like a hook for stories beyond that point, at least in the reader's imagination.

Nope, Toriyama also added Goku giving Uub Kintoun along with slightly altering the closing narration.

[Civic]

I agree with the OP. We actually see some maturation of Goku through the Cell saga and even a little into the Buu saga, realising that he won't be around forever and that there always needs to be someone around strong enough to protect Earth. He might go about it in a naive way, peppered with his own desire to still get in and fight, but it shows the straightforward pragmatism that Goku is known for.

Once Goku feels Semi Perfect Cell's power, he knows he's not enough (at the time). He trains both himself and Gohan to beat him - it's obvious he still wants to be the one to do it - but he also recognises that beyond that desire, Gohan has a better chance than him, and trains him to be that ace in the hole. Once he finishes training and senses Perfect Cell, his path doesn't change - hell, he doesn't even train the week (or 10 days?) leading up to the Cell Games, because he believes they've done as much as they can, and he still trusts in Gohan's hidden power.

He doesn't give it a second thought to sacrifice himself to protect his friends and family when there's no other choice (much like against Raditz) and he makes the connection that much of the threats to the entire planet connect in some way to him, even if he isn't the direct cause (most stuff before Z isn't, but some of his actions come back in Z). But Raditz/Nappa/Vegeta are from him, Frieza/King Cold on Earth are, the androids' creation are.

You can argue that swapping Goku for another Z fighter would've ended with the same result, but that's kinda besides the point - the point is that Goku's actions caused a range of murderous malcontents to threaten the planet specifically because of him, and with him gone, any more of them wouldn't endanger Earth by looking for a revenge kill.

It's Goku's pure, unfiltered thinking of 'huh, I'm gonna die one day for good. Who knows if Earth will be in danger again when I'm gone? Probably should make sure other people can protect Earth as well. It might help if I'm not around so much.' It's a slightly wiser, less selfish way of thinking of the world and his place in it, but it still fits Goku's simple style of thinking.

He also knows he'll have a great time in Other World training, so it's not like he misses out on his favourite thing either.

Of course, that wouldn't stop the 'sins of the father' type murderers (like Paragus wanting Vegeta to die in DBS:Broly because his father banished Broly) but you can see where Goku's coming from.

It's largely walked back by the end of the Buu saga, but obviously the theme stays with him since he wants to train Uub (and fight him too, of course). Protecting the Earth is not his controlling desire, and it never was, but he has always realised its importance. Just as he gets older, he sees it more clearly.

[Jord]

Goku staying dead because of attracting bad guys is completely out of character. Any time bad guys come to fight Goku gets excited to fight them. Happened before his death with the Androids and happened after his death with Buu.

Him suddenly caring about attracting strong opponents is a complete 180 from how he behaves in the rest of DBZ, GT, Super and the movies.

[ABED]

Goku staying dead because of attracting bad guys is completely out of character. Any time bad guys come to fight Goku gets excited to fight them. Happened before his death with the Androids and happened after his death with Buu.

Him suddenly caring about attracting strong opponents is a complete 180 from how he behaves in the rest of DBZ, GT, Super and the movies.

It's not that he's worried about attracting powerful opponents, he's saying that he's worried about the collateral damage that results.

[Yuji]

Goku staying dead because of attracting bad guys is completely out of character. Any time bad guys come to fight Goku gets excited to fight them. Happened before his death with the Androids and happened after his death with Buu.

Him suddenly caring about attracting strong opponents is a complete 180 from how he behaves in the rest of DBZ, GT, Super and the movies.

Goku is a good person with good intentions and he's come to a realization that he's better off dead for the safety of his friends and family and he can still fight strong opponents in Heaven to get his fix. Goku isn't nor should be a static character, he can come to decisions and change his perspective on things based on events that happen in his life.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Honestly, this feels like Toriyama was trying to move on from Goku and he'd felt like he'd taken him as far as he could go and then tried to continue on with Gohan now as the MC after Goku decided to stay dead in the Next World at the end of the Cell arc. Only to realize that oops, he turned out to be a character that couldn't work in the protagonist role in Goku's place in a satisfying manner that would carry the series long term. Now, granted initially the means were there for him to make it work but it became very clear by the time the Buu arc really got rolling that Toriyama wasn't going to be able to keep things going with Gohan in the role of the protagonist, hence why he had Goku revived through the Old Kaioshin giving his life to him.

[Jord]

Goku staying dead because of attracting bad guys is completely out of character. Any time bad guys come to fight Goku gets excited to fight them. Happened before his death with the Androids and happened after his death with Buu.

Him suddenly caring about attracting strong opponents is a complete 180 from how he behaves in the rest of DBZ, GT, Super and the movies.

It's not that he's worried about attracting powerful opponents, he's saying that he's worried about the collateral damage that results.

Yeah and that is something he never cared dor before or after. And why should he? They always have the dragon balls to fix everything after each major battle.

[ABED]

Goku staying dead because of attracting bad guys is completely out of character. Any time bad guys come to fight Goku gets excited to fight them. Happened before his death with the Androids and happened after his death with Buu.

Him suddenly caring about attracting strong opponents is a complete 180 from how he behaves in the rest of DBZ, GT, Super and the movies.

It's not that he's worried about attracting powerful opponents, he's saying that he's worried about the collateral damage that results.

Yeah and that is something he never cared dor before or after. And why should he? They always have the dragon balls to fix everything after each major battle.

He does care about collateral damage. He tries to take his fights into unpopulated areas.

It's not even played like some big revelation. he says it like it's an extra benefit of his death. It's not so much out of character as him actually learning or at least being self aware.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

Gohan isn't perfect but he's a still a better protector than Goku because, like I said in my analysis, he won't give bad guys the chance to cause a disaster.

Cell very nearly destroyed Earth because Gohan was too busy toying with Cell to end the fight right away. His first stint as The World's Strongest™ and he already gave the bad guy the chance to cause a disaster.

The only reason Earth didn't get destroyed was because Goku was there.

That was a mistake Gohan vowed not to repeat hence why he was happy that Cell came back so that he can kill him the way he was supposed to. Goku would never undergo this kind of change hence why Gohan was a better protector than him. I said as much in my analysis.

But he made the exact same mistake with Boo. He toyed with Boo instead of killing him and let the kids and Piccolo get absorbed.

[TheUltimateVegito]

Cell very nearly destroyed Earth because Gohan was too busy toying with Cell to end the fight right away. His first stint as The World's Strongest™ and he already gave the bad guy the chance to cause a disaster.

The only reason Earth didn't get destroyed was because Goku was there.

That was a mistake Gohan vowed not to repeat hence why he was happy that Cell came back so that he can kill him the way he was supposed to. Goku would never undergo this kind of change hence why Gohan was a better protector than him. I said as much in my analysis.

But he made the exact same mistake with Boo. He toyed with Boo instead of killing him and let the kids and Piccolo get absorbed.

Goku didn’t think nor had reason to believe Gohan would act like that.

[FoolsGil]

Goku had nothing to do with Babidi showing up. Maybe there's something sentimental there, but Goku doesn't know what he's talking about.

[ABED]

Goku had nothing to do with Babidi showing up. Maybe there's something sentimental there, but Goku doesn't know what he's talking about.

I think you all are being too literal. Goku isn't the literal reason why so many strong enemies show up, but he constantly finds himself up against the worst of the worst.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Goku had nothing to do with Babidi showing up. Maybe there's something sentimental there, but Goku doesn't know what he's talking about.

I think you all are being too literal. Goku isn't the literal reason why so many strong enemies show up, but he constantly finds himself up against the worst of the worst.

I think you are arguing against someone who's arguing that killing Goku makes no sense and I therefore assume wants to keep Goku in the show alive. You are arguing against someone who is making the point you are making.

[funrush]

I feel pretty confident that the "attracting bad guys" thing is just something Toriyama made up at the last minute to explain why Gohan should be the main character now. It's not in character at all for Goku. Goku doesn't just attract bad guys, he intentionally creates/antagonizes them for the challenge.

Gohan would be a more compelling main character in that he's a pacifist who is always forced to fight and maybe that could be interesting, but it wouldn't be as fun. Toriyama brought back Goku probably because Goku is more fun as a protagonist. Gohan being forced to spend all his time training would result in him being a tortured soul probably.

If Goku is ever to REALLY pass the torch down to someone, it should be someone who loves nothing but fighting like him and Vegeta. Someone he knows will push themselves to the limit all the time. Perhaps Pan and Uub could fulfill this role whenever they feel like overwriting GT, but who knows.

I also feel that Broly is well suited to take Gohan's niche of "fighter who gets insane rage boosts" without the scholarly baggage. If Toriyama gets sick of Gohan in the post-Super Hero arcs, I hope they just slot Broly in. The ideal outcome is if from now on there's a whole squad of 5 like in the android arc. Goku/Vegeta/Piccolo/Gohan, and Broly in place of Future Trunks.