Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Mr Baggins]

I disagree with Gohan being low to mid SSB tier.

I meant compared to Blue's current strength, not the power Goku displayed during the ToP.

Between Goku becoming naturally stronger and the upgrades applied to Blue itself since its introduction, "SSB tier" is a wide and ambiguous category now. It ranges from beating Hit to smashing Saganbo.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Going exclusively by the movie, is it possible Gohan (and maybe 17) are just SSJG level? If Piccolo is on pair with Goku and he one shot Gamma 2… The serializations making Gohan out to be Blue level might just be a highball on their part. Toriyama’s notes probably just said he vaguely caught up but lost on a double KO.

If the Gammas are equal to Blue, then Ultimate Gohan necessarily has to be as well. The statement that the Gammas are equal to Goku and Vegeta can't make sense if we reduce them to SSG at this point. Even SSB is just an assumption.

At the very least the Gammas should equal the Blues from the Moro arc, which are significantly stronger than the Blues from the ToP. Gohan in the manga was already equal to Kefla who herself was at ToP Blue range, at least on the bottom range of the spectrum, so even though he got left behind during the Moro arc, it makes sense he can now catch up.

You could make the argument that Granolah arc/Superhero SSG Goku/Vegeta > Moro arc SSB Goku/Vegeta but that seems too ridiculous a power boost for no reason.

Orange Piccolo should be somewhere in that nebulous Blue Evolved/UI Sign tier above Blue. Remember Piccolo was holding Cell down, so he's no pushover.

17 definitely got left in the dust by this point, though. He was already on the lower end of the Blue tier and didn't do anything too impressive during the Moro arc.

But here's the thing: There's no Moro or Granolah in the movie. The script was written right after Broly, the synopsys says it follows from Broly, and everyone is on the same status quo.

There is very little distinction between "the serialization", or at least the manga's serialization, and "Toriyama's notes". Toriyama checks and approves (and even sometimes directly contributes to) every chapter.

17 and ToP Ultimate Gohan are on the lower to middle end of the Blue spectrum, whereas the Gammas and Super Hero's Ultimate Gohan are on the higher end, I'd wager. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Toriyama's notes are often assumed to be (almost) anything that overlaps between the anime and manga, but sometimes both take liberties that Toriyama either forgets or ignores, like Goku and Vegeta's beyond-Blue forms.

Orange Piccolo and the Gammas are both said to be around Goku's level, but Orange Piccolo and Gamma 2 are clearly on different levels. Not just on different spots of the same tier, Gamma 2 can't even budge Piccolo.

[Yuji]

But here's the thing: There's no Moro or Granolah in the movie. The script was written right after Broly, the synopsys says it follows from Broly, and everyone is on the same status quo.

Sure, but the movie is in the manga now. It necessarily follows the Moro and Granolah arcs. If you want to split the powerscaling into continuities feel free, but I don't think it's necessary when Gohan and Piccolo's power boost don't cause any headache here.

[Miracles]

Piccolo: Gammas "seem" on par with Goku/Vegeta.

Toriyama: Piccolo "is" "on par" with Goku and Co.

*Piccolo literally one shots Gamma 2.*

Blue Goku/Vegeta=Orange Piccolo.

[shadd21]

Is this correct?...

Ultimate Gohan/Piccolo = Blue Goku/Vegeta

Gohan Beast/Orange Piccolo = TUI Goku/UE Vegeta

[Mr Baggins]

The comparison between Orange Piccolo and Goku isn't made in the movie – it was made alongside promotional art to celebrate the movie's sales, years after the script and shortly after the Granolah arc.

Toriyama absolutely isn't ignoring the forms beyond Blue, least of all Ultra Instinct, and certainly ain't splitting continuities in his head. That he'd intend to put Piccolo on par with the Ultra forms was obvious to me even from the film's release.

Is this correct?...

Ultimate Gohan/Piccolo = Blue Goku/Vegeta

Gohan Beast/Orange Piccolo = TUI Goku/UE Vegeta

Yes, roughly speaking. Though Gohan Beast is likely in his own league.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The comparison between Orange Piccolo and Goku isn't made in the movie – it was made alongside promotional art to celebrate the movie's sales, years after the script and shortly after the Granolah arc.

Toriyama absolutely isn't ignoring the forms beyond Blue, least of all Ultra Instinct, and certainly ain't splitting continuities in his head. That he'd intend to put Piccolo on par with the Ultra forms was obvious to me even from the film's release.

You mean SSJB + Kaio-Ken, SSJBE and PSSJB? He 100% is. Goku doesn’t really look like he knows UI in the movie either, and UE didn’t even exist when AT wrote the script.

Anyway, I think the first half of your post actually explained it all. The Gammas were meant to compare to Goku and Vegeta in 2019, but by the time of the movie’s release they far surpassed that level. Sure wouldn’t have hurt to to update the dialogue, though.

[Mr Baggins]

Goku doesn’t really look like he knows UI in the movie either

Nah, the movie is deliberately vague about this because the Saiyans are specifically instructed not to transform. I'm sure that was partly an effort to avoid contradictions in the future since the post-Broly arcs weren't yet fully outlined, though YMMV on whether it was a successful one.

Anyway, I think the first half of your post actually explained it all. The Gammas were meant to compare to Goku and Vegeta in 2019, but by the time of the movie’s release they far surpassed that level.

Right, that's the point I'm making here. Toriyama isn't ignoring stories, scaling elements, and transformations produced after the movie. He supervised those arcs and contributed to them, so he was obviously taking the series in general into account when drawing the recent Piccolo comparison.

And while I'll try not to belabor too many nitpicks, "PSSB" isn't a form. Toyotaro may have invented the concept, but it's just Blue at full power; it isn't even auraless anymore and now functionally is the same old Blue from elsewhere in DBS, similar to "Grade 4" Super Saiyan from the Cell arc and beyond.

[QuakingStar]

First off, the ToP is directly brought up in the Broly movie with Kefla, Toppo, and Jiren shown. So Blue Evolved and UI are most definitely a thing in the Broly movie and in SH, They just aren't shown. SH is now currently in the manga and thus far there has been no real changes, just additions. Goku and Vegeta were just on Earth 3 weeks ago before leaving to go to Beerus Planet, as as we know they also train while on Earth. I myself do think that Piccolo is referring to current Super Saiyan Blue for the two gammas, and at the very least he would be referring to end of Moro Arc SSB when comparing Goku and Vegeta to the Gammas and as we have seen Goku literally became able to use UI and Silver UI of his own accord in the Moro Arc, Toyo and Toriyama planned that, and Toriyama made the statement about Piccolo being on Par with Goku. Now again, this is referring to power. so Orange Piccolo being on par in power with UI Goku is likely what it means, but does Orange Piccolo have any hax ability like UI and UE do? No, it does not. So he would still lose.
Gohan Beast and Black Frieza are on a different level.

[shadd21]

Could Gohan Beast defeat Black Freeza?

[Miracles]

Yes. Gohan Beasts is stated to be stronger than anyone right now by Toriyama himself.

[Yuji]

Yes. Gohan Beasts is stated to be stronger than anyone right now by Toriyama himself.

If Beerus and Whis are exempted from that comparison, I don't see why Freeza shouldn't be either.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

“Gohan is the strongest… or so it’s said” doesn’t sound very definitive to me.

Not sure about this interview, but the movie came out a few months before Black Freeza’s debut. Freeza is the next opponent, so it makes no sense for him to be surpassed even before they fight him, unless Gohan slacks off again (which would make the movie pointless).

[Yuji]

How strong do we think current Merus and EoZ Oob are?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Merus is anyone's guess. I always thought he lost his angelic powers when he was reborn was a mortal, so I don't think he's anything special anymore. We'll probably never see him in a big role again.

Oob had more "god power" to give than Vegeta, so I imagine his hidden power was stronger than SSJBE Vegeta in the Moro Saga at the very least.

[Yuji]

Merus is anyone's guess. I always thought he lost his angelic powers when he was reborn was a mortal, so I don't think he's anything special anymore. We'll probably never see him in a big role again.

Beerus and Whis claim he only starts using his Angel powers when he pulls out the staff and the ring, and before then he was clowning on Moro. Even if we assume he's already using some form of Angel powers before then, we saw the Grand Priest only became concerned when he started training Sign Goku. Merus was fighting SS3/God Goku and at that point we didn't get any indication he was going beyond his threshold.

So his "natural strength" can range anywhere from Moro arc God Goku to above Moro arc Sign, which is at least still useful.

Oob had more "god power" to give than Vegeta, so I imagine his hidden power was stronger than SSJBE Vegeta in the Moro Saga at the very least.

Should we take his fight with Goku as an indication of base Goku's strength or are we working under the assumption Oob wasn't using his full power?

[Koitsukai]

Until we've seen in-universe Gohan as the strongest, stronger than the on-going villain, then it's only an idea or desire Toriyama has but has yet to be pursued aside of Cell Max. It's all up to how they'll blend the movie and manga continuity. together.
On the other hand, we know Freeza will be defeated by the MCs(or maybe Beerus or Broly?), if they ever release that arc that is, Goku probably will do it, but I'm willing to bet money it won't be Gohan taking him down, so there will probably be some development that makes Gohan unable to do it (he slacks off, he is at a meeting, he is actually not as strong, he has been surpassed, etc). But having an antagonist weaker than a cast member kinda defeats the purpose of having an antagonist.

Merus probably has some rudimentary UI left due to his past as an angel and all of his experience, kinda like what Roshi has. I guess he is still the strongest Galactic Patroller, probably a decent Z-senshi earthling level, but below Namek Freeza I'm assuming.

Uub will be as strong as base Goku. Unless they retcon that fight entirely, Uub will be on par with base Goku, whatever that level might be, I'm thinking Perfect Cell (a level I think they are at right now) or Fat Buu. His potential might be beyond SSBE, but by EoZ he caps at base level. He could very well be as strong as Kid Buu.

[Yuji]

The base Saiyans being as strong as Cell right now seems to be a bit too high. I still go by BoG's Freeza > base Saiyans scaling as there doesn't seem to be any strong evidence to disprove it, and I generally have perfect Cell at 20x stronger than Freeza. I don't think the Saiyans got 20x stronger in their base forms throughout DBS especially when only the Moro arc shows any major gains in terms of pure battle power.

I'd say at most they're around the artificial humans from the Cell arc, maybe imperfect or semi-perfect Cell at the higher end.

[Koitsukai]

I was in a hurry so I wasn't able to review my post. I meant Perfect Cell saga SS level, like some post-ROSAT SS, probably not on SS grade 4's level, but definitely above the androids. Z Piccolo's level or so, at least.

Goku is now using UI to enhance his base form, I'm assuming he'll master that by EoZ without clear distinction between him using that principle or just his raw base power.

[Miracles]

Yes. Gohan Beasts is stated to be stronger than anyone right now by Toriyama himself.

If Beerus and Whis are exempted from that comparison, I don't see why Freeza shouldn't be either.

Gohan comes after Freeza. Toriyama just said Gohan is the latest and greatest.