Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

[Yuji]

It's definitely a wasted opportunity to have only Goku and Pan fight them and they're also not treated with the supposed gravitas the concept invites. One of the dragons gets damaged by a regular seagull. Even if you don't care for powerlevels, that's beyond stupid.

[ABED]

It's definitely a wasted opportunity to have only Goku and Pan fight them and they're also not treated with the supposed gravitas the concept invites. One of the dragons gets damaged by a regular seagull. Even if you don't care for powerlevels, that's beyond stupid.

Because Dragon Ball doesn't normally deal in gravitas. And again, it builds. They go from a goofy deceptively weak dragon and builds to the biggest of all big bads.

[Yuji]

It's definitely a wasted opportunity to have only Goku and Pan fight them and they're also not treated with the supposed gravitas the concept invites. One of the dragons gets damaged by a regular seagull. Even if you don't care for powerlevels, that's beyond stupid.

Because Dragon Ball doesn't normally deal in gravitas. And again, it builds. They go from a goofy deceptively weak dragon and builds to the biggest of all big bads.

That's not really true. Freeza's force was imposing from the start, from the Saiyans and Dodoria and Zarbon all the way to Freeza himself. Cui was the only exception and we at least know he was Vegeta's rival. Piccolo Daimao's creations were also all imposing.

Half of the dragons feel like random throaway villains you'd find in the first arc of GT. There's being deceptive in strength like the artificial humans, and then there's just outright being weak and goofy. Goku didn't even need to transform for some of them. They posed no threat, weren't a catalyst for interesting set pieces or character dynamics, there was really nothing there.

You could make the comparison to Babidi's ship, perhaps, but that had other interesting things going on - Shin's reactions, Babidi and Dabra scheming to take Vegeta's mind, the Saiyans all showcasing their powers, actual stakes with Piccolo and Kuririn being turned to stone. 2 joke opponents and yet they were defeated in memorable ways. I can hardly remember how any of the dragons besides the last three were dealt with.

[ABED]

It's definitely a wasted opportunity to have only Goku and Pan fight them and they're also not treated with the supposed gravitas the concept invites. One of the dragons gets damaged by a regular seagull. Even if you don't care for powerlevels, that's beyond stupid.

Because Dragon Ball doesn't normally deal in gravitas. And again, it builds. They go from a goofy deceptively weak dragon and builds to the biggest of all big bads.

That's not really true. Freeza's force was imposing from the start, from the Saiyans and Dodoria and Zarbon all the way to Freeza himself. Cui was the only exception and we at least know he was Vegeta's rival. Piccolo Daimao's creations were also all imposing.

Half of the dragons feel like random throaway villains you'd find in the first arc of GT. There's being deceptive in strength like the artificial humans, and then there's just outright being weak and goofy. Goku didn't even need to transform for some of them. They posed no threat, weren't a catalyst for interesting set pieces or character dynamics, there was really nothing there.

You could make the comparison to Babidi's ship, perhaps, but that had other interesting things going on - Shin's reactions, Babidi and Dabra scheming to take Vegeta's mind, the Saiyans all showcasing their powers, actual stakes with Piccolo and Kuririn being turned to stone. 2 joke opponents and yet they were defeated in memorable ways. I can hardly remember how any of the dragons besides the last three were dealt with.

There were a handful. Even in Freeza's army, most of them were smalltime lackies. He had a handful of genuinely threatening bad guys and even the Ginyu Force weren't equally powerful. Guldo was weak, but had a power that made him formidable, not unlike the first dragon. Weak and goofy? That's right up Dragon Ball's alley.

All of Piccolo's creations were THREE not counting Piano who wasn't a fighter. Cymbal doesn't do anything of note besides get killed by Yajirobe.

There are 7 Dragons and over half pose a physical threat or use some power or strategy that puts the heroes in jeopardy. They build in intensity and one of them nearly kills Goku by absorbing Pan and using her as a shield. It was a dirty fight.

The whole "turn people to stone thing" wasn't a great example of actual stakes.

And it's storytelling, even if you have a preference for how something is presented, not everything should be presented in the same way. Not every bad guy and his faction can be super imposing. Having a larger group that starts off one way and slowly builds is different and refreshing from the typical "you must take these threats equally seriously". Give me a one off that has an amusing gimmick over most of the cyborgs pretty much anyday.

[Yuji]

I think you're missing the point. You can have goofier villains, you can have an escalating power gauntlet. The point is that it wasn't done well. It's not thematically or visually interesting to see Goku finish off villains by himself in his base form for 3 straight episodes, and then jump to SS4 once the "real fighters" show up. Goku has four forms he can use at this point. Either use the strongest to finish them off, or go the Super route of cycling forms as the opponents get progressively stronger. It's more visually interesting this way and stops the episodes at the very least from feeling repetitive. I bring up Babidi's ship because this is exactly what happened - Vegeta fights in base form, Goku ramps it up to Super Saiyan with a hint of 2, and then Gohan fights in Super Saiyan 2. Visual indication of the increasing threat level. They didn't jump from base straight to Super Saiyan 4.

And again, this is excluding the fact that you have a whole other cast to work with - Goku and Pan don't have to be the only players. Their dynamic has been explored enough the rest of the series. They're no longer in space, the others can help out too. Why do they only come out of nowhere during the Yi Shinlong fight?

[ABED]

It's not thematically or visually interesting to see Goku finish off villains by himself in his base form for 3 straight episodes, and then jump to SS4 once the "real fighters" show up.

What does turning SSJ4 have to do with the theme? What is the theme? From what I can tell, the theme of that last arc is "reckoning."

It's more visually interesting this way and stops the episodes at the very least from feeling repetitive

Why any moreso than the different powers and personalities of the dragons? what made the fights in Babidi's ship interesting had nothing to do with Super Saiyan. It had more to do with the villains and their different powers as well as the unique aspect of any damage done to the heroes would bring the villain one step closer to attaining their goal.

I agree with the last part, though. The story is coming to an end. That's precisely the right time to bring in the others.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think there's a lot of good ideas in GT, except for the Super 17 Saga that just recycled Myuu, Androids, the old DBZ movies and every main villain in one package full of holes. When I look at Toriyama's drawings of Goku, Trunks and Pan I see a lot of potential for this series to be really fun.

The only thing I'm really against is the ending. People just fall for it because of the pretty music, take that away and it's like the writers just forgot to wrap everything up before the last minute.

[FoolsGil]

Because opinions, and everyone has a right to them. Here's mine:

Hunt for the Dragonballs Arc: Consider the alternative on this one: Super. Once again a powerful villain is threatening the Earth, galaxy, universe, or what have you, and so Goku and maybe Vegeta are going to train, unlock a new transformation, get a new move, and then the villain is defeated...And then repeat with the next arc. At least the writers of GT said "Well lets try and do something different." Was the results good? no not really. But on paper was it a good idea? I like to think so.

Baby Arc: You even admit there's something there. Moving on, Good idea on paper.

Piccolo's Death: Was it bullshit? yes. But right or wrong, it's moments and scenes like that, that define a character. Giving a beloved character a permanent sendoff that shows the best of them? Good idea on paper.

Super 17: Not a lot of winners here I admit, but the scene of Eighteen and Super 17, and Krillin being taken out by Super 17 and Eighteen and Goku forming an alliance to take him out, those were great ideas on paper and in action.

Shadow Dragons: In Super, Bulma is asking for a tighter ass and other cosmetics with the dragonballs. Negative consequences for overuse on wish granting orbs is definitely a good idea on paper.

The Ending: Beautiful Sendoff. Wonderful Idea on Paper. and in action.

[sangofe]

DBGT has a lot of recycled shit. Those are not good ideas. Lejic, Rild, and the Black Dragon is original, though. I love the Rild episodes. I don't know why not more people like this arc. It was a bit lame idea for the Dragon Balls to "go bad" in the Black Star Dragon Ball arc, but okay, it's original. Could have been splendidly great. I hate that it's mostly Goku and Pan here, though.

[Cure Dragon 255]

It's not thematically or visually interesting to see Goku finish off villains by himself in his base form for 3 straight episodes, and then jump to SS4 once the "real fighters" show up.

What does turning SSJ4 have to do with the theme? What is the theme? From what I can tell, the theme of that last arc is "reckoning."

It's more visually interesting this way and stops the episodes at the very least from feeling repetitive

Why any moreso than the different powers and personalities of the dragons? what made the fights in Babidi's ship interesting had nothing to do with Super Saiyan. It had more to do with the villains and their different powers as well as the unique aspect of any damage done to the heroes would bring the villain one step closer to attaining their goal.

I agree with the last part, though. The story is coming to an end. That's precisely the right time to bring in the others.

Um... ABED you do know that just cherry picking the parts you can refute out of a very long post makes you look like a... well I dont have a nice word for this. You should stop doing that.

[ABED]

It's not thematically or visually interesting to see Goku finish off villains by himself in his base form for 3 straight episodes, and then jump to SS4 once the "real fighters" show up.

What does turning SSJ4 have to do with the theme? What is the theme? From what I can tell, the theme of that last arc is "reckoning."

It's more visually interesting this way and stops the episodes at the very least from feeling repetitive

Why any moreso than the different powers and personalities of the dragons? what made the fights in Babidi's ship interesting had nothing to do with Super Saiyan. It had more to do with the villains and their different powers as well as the unique aspect of any damage done to the heroes would bring the villain one step closer to attaining their goal.

I agree with the last part, though. The story is coming to an end. That's precisely the right time to bring in the others.

Um... ABED you do know that just cherry picking the parts you can refute out of a very long post makes you look like a... well I dont have a nice word for this. You should stop doing that.

like a... cherry picker? Dunno about that one. I picked out the parts I found the most interesting like the issue of theme and visual distinctiveness. And it wasn't a long post I replied to. I picked out the parts I found most interesting and substantive.

[SupremeKai25]

Shadow Dragons: In Super, Bulma is asking for a tighter ass and other cosmetics with the dragonballs. Negative consequences for overuse on wish granting orbs is definitely a good idea on paper.

Super also has the idea of "negative consequences for overuse of Dragon Balls" as a central key plot point... but it simply affects the villains instead of the heroes.

Zamasu over-used the Super Dragon Balls when he wished both a mortal body and immortality for himself, and as a result of this over-use, Fused Zamasu ended up becoming a twisted amalgamation of mortal and immortal body parts.

Both Granolah and Gas over-used the Dragon Balls when they made the ultimate wish, to become the strongest, and both of them paid a heavy price; Granolah only has 3 years left to live (when he is just a young adult and would have had far longer if he never made the wish), and what happened to Gas is self-explanatory; he literally rotted and decayed into a skeleton, when he was very young before making the wish.

On top of this, the over-use of Dragon Balls ends up being the downfall of these villains. Granolah and Gas rot away and don't have much time left to live, and Fused Zamasu's body becomes so unstable that Trunks is able to destroy him with the sword of friendship. And so it is ironic that these villains are unmade by the same powers that made them relevant in the first place.

So if the Shadow Dragons arc is supposed to be original because it shows the "consequences of over-using Dragon Balls", then Super also does this kind of storyline. The only difference is that the consequences happen to the villains (Zamasu, Granolah, and Gas) and not the heroes. But GT certainly isn't the only storyline that has "consequences of over-use of Dragon Balls" as a main plot point. This plot point is clearly present in Super too, but it affects the villains more than the heroes.

[FoolsGil]

Shadow Dragons: In Super, Bulma is asking for a tighter ass and other cosmetics with the dragonballs. Negative consequences for overuse on wish granting orbs is definitely a good idea on paper.

Super also has the idea of "negative consequences for overuse of Dragon Balls" as a central key plot point... but it simply affects the villains instead of the heroes.

Zamasu over-used the Super Dragon Balls when he wished both a mortal body and immortality for himself, and as a result of this over-use, Fused Zamasu ended up becoming a twisted amalgamation of mortal and immortal body parts.

Both Granolah and Gas over-used the Dragon Balls when they made the ultimate wish, to become the strongest, and both of them paid a heavy price; Granolah only has 3 years left to live (when he is just a young adult and would have had far longer if he never made the wish), and what happened to Gas is self-explanatory; he literally rotted and decayed into a skeleton, when he was very young before making the wish.

On top of this, the over-use of Dragon Balls ends up being the downfall of these villains. Granolah and Gas rot away and don't have much time left to live, and Fused Zamasu's body becomes so unstable that Trunks is able to destroy him with the sword of friendship. And so it is ironic that these villains are unmade by the same powers that made them relevant in the first place.

So if the Shadow Dragons arc is supposed to be original because it shows the "consequences of over-using Dragon Balls", then Super also does this kind of storyline. The only difference is that the consequences happen to the villains (Zamasu, Granolah, and Gas) and not the heroes. But GT certainly isn't the only storyline that has "consequences of over-use of Dragon Balls" as a main plot point. This plot point is clearly present in Super too, but it affects the villains more than the heroes.

I didn't say anything about any arc being original. I said it's a good idea. That's what the conversation is about.

[SupremeKai25]

I didn't say anything about any arc being original. I said it's a good idea. That's what the conversation is about.

You implied that Super doesn't deal with the theme of "Negative consequences of Over-using Dragon Balls" because Bulma in Super uses the DBs for silly wishes. I'm correcting you by pointing out that Super indeed deals with the theme of "over-using DBs", but the negative consequences are felt by the villains and not the heroes (unlike GT). But the last manga arc, the Granolah Survivor arc, was all about the main villains paying a heavy price for misusing the Dragon Balls.

[Zephyr]

Hunt for the Dragonballs Arc: Consider the alternative on this one: Super. Once again a powerful villain is threatening the Earth, galaxy, universe, or what have you, and so Goku and maybe Vegeta are going to train, unlock a new transformation, get a new move, and then the villain is defeated...And then repeat with the next arc. At least the writers of GT said "Well lets try and do something different."

I'm not sure I'd paint GT's rehashing of Dragon Ball's first story arc as "the writers trying something different". Especially when the 10th anniversary movie (which released between GT's 4th and 5th episodes) did the same thing, only more explicitly; it was even scripted by Aya Matsui, who also scripted 10 episodes of GT's "Hunt for the Dragon Balls" arc.

[JulieYBM]

Originality is a separate and frankly fruitless question to ask about. What matters most is execution, which I certainly think anything in Dragon Ball can be executed better because it is a series constantly fighting against restraints.

Reusing the Dragon Ball quest? Reusing the negative consequences of Dragon Ball wishes? That sort of thing just reminds me of the tropes in egg fiction (stories about trans women not knowing they're trans but still accidentally transitioning somehow).

[Zephyr]

Originality is a separate and frankly fruitless question to ask about.

I agree. Setting aside the general fact that all art is ultimately derivative of something else, Dragon Ball in particular lives and breathes remixing itself.

I just think that if one is trying to have a 'war' over which series is more "original", then GT's Black Star Dragon Ball arc is probably not a great thing to bring up in its favor.

[ClutchBangstrip]

I honestly can't judge because I don't watch cartoons or read comics/manga for the stories so the "ideas" are mostly of no concern to me. But stepping back, the ideas do seem pretty cool, aside from 17. That just seemed random as Hell.

I do like how much of GT's ideas seem to FINALLY circle back around to exploring or focusing on major story elements that are really cool.

OG, Z, and Super rarely go into depth about a lot of the cool major elements they introduce. It's literally THE ONLY franchise I've ever seen pull this off routinely and still keep going.

To this day I still can't believe we don't have a young Master Roshi spinoff. GT was the type of series that would explore more elements of Roshi's youth, besides the surface level stuff and find a way to make that into a new villain. Only problem is, the execution of the idea would be poorly executed.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh... that's just utter fanfiction on your part. I dont see GT doing anything with any old elements of Dragon Ball other than the Road Trip feel of the first arc.

[Hellspawn28]

GT is just as a big bag of old stuff rehashed into one. I feel like if you want to rehash something, try to do something new or interesting with it. Most of the rehashes in GT sometime feels lazy. The Black Star Dragon Ball Hunt has scenes that were cringy when they try to re-create some scenes from the Pilaf saga. The Baby saga takes stuff from the Cell saga, Buu saga, Garlic Jr saga, and Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans. It's better than Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans when it comes to the idea of the Tsufruian wanting revenge, but that's not a high bar.

I give the Shadow Dragon saga trying to do something new, but the ending still felt like the defeat of Kid Buu all over again.