Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

I don't think so. The anime is also consistent with the manga where the Blue Saiyans are capable of fending off Merged Zamasu to some degree. I can't really see how SSJR Goku Black is even relevant to Blue Saiyans after the conclusion of the Zamasu arc.

Agreed. Goku in Blue alone was able to overpower fused Zamas with a Kamehameha using his "full power." It seems like Goku was holding back the entire fight against Black.

Either he was holding back or just plainly growing stronger during the fight. Goku Black even noticed this during his final battle with Vegeta where his power was growing through rage. They were at the height of their emotions when they battled Merged Zamasu so I'm not sure why that wouldn't be the case when the narrative and feats support it.

I'm personally not so sure why people are adamant about Goku Black being relevant to ToP Blue Saiyans in the anime. Maybe someone could explain that to me. When we blatantly see the Blue Saiyans fend off a much stronger opponent, I can't really see that being the case.

All I remember is during the beam struggle Goku said "Full power" and his Kamehameha got bigger and overpowered Fused Zamas. Actually damaging Zamasu as a result. Black can't be relevant next arc.

I don't think so. The anime is also consistent with the manga where the Blue Saiyans are capable of fending off Merged Zamasu to some degree. I can't really see how SSJR Goku Black is even relevant to Blue Saiyans after the conclusion of the Zamasu arc.

Agreed. Goku in Blue alone was able to overpower fused Zamas with a Kamehameha using his "full power." It seems like Goku was holding back the entire fight against Black.

He was holding back against the villain who slaughtered his family with his body and gloated about it?

That's OOC for Goku.

Goku was never "holding back" against Black, he was simply fodder. Even Kaioken wouldn't have done anything but make Black stronger through massive beat down.

Didn't Vegeta say Goku has a bad habit of holding back in his first fight with Black?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I'm gonna be honest, the "always assume comparisons are to the strongest forms" doesn't work with that statement. Piccolo is running through his mind all their options. This is a Goku and Vegeta level threat. It doesn't matter if they're UI or SSJB level, it's beyond Piccolo's level either way because they're A-Tiers and he's a B-Tier. It is a bit confusing here, and way more straightforward in the movie.

You know, I saw elsewhere some people arguing about the Gammas being Base level. It was a mix of the good old "How do they know? They can't sense God Ki" with a strange misconception that Goku fought Saganbo in base when he first arrived blitzing everyone (Which is understandable if you forgot to read next chapter). Still, it's funny to think about that, and the writting is messy enough that you can read that way.

[Miracles]

Kakarot blitz'd Saganbo in UI Sign. Piccolo's judgement of the Gamma's was just his estimate ["seems"]. Not stated as a fact. Proven when Piccolo himself was said to be straight "up on par with Goku and Co." when he one shotted a Gamma. Piccolo's guess was simply wrong about the Gamma's.

[Hugo Boss]

I'm gonna be honest, the "always assume comparisons are to the strongest forms" doesn't work with that statement. Piccolo is running through his mind all their options. This is a Goku and Vegeta level threat. It doesn't matter if they're UI or SSJB level, it's beyond Piccolo's level either way because they're A-Tiers and he's a B-Tier. It is a bit confusing here, and way more straightforward in the movie.

It doesn’t work if you have seen the movie, but for a manga reader that hasn’t seen it, it’s expected to revisit manga-only content to understand that assessment, specially when it lacks visual depiction or elaboration. Regular SSB technically doesn’t represent Goku and Vegeta’s level since the fight against Moro, which Piccolo was part of.

[SupremeKai25]

Didn't Vegeta say Goku has a bad habit of holding back in his first fight with Black?

But Zamasu revealed to Goku that he killed him and used his body to slaughter his family, he even gloated about it. Zamasu made Goku even more angry and salty than Frieza. Goku tried to spare a defeated Frieza, while Goku went for the kill against a seemingly defeated Black.

It is OOC for Goku to hold back against Zamasu, the villain who killed him, stole his body, and used it to mercilessly slaughter his family. After Goku learned what Zamasu did, he was no longer holding back.

As to why he never used Kaioken against Black, it is easy to see why. Goku has learned one thing about Black, he knows that he always grows stronger from a massive beatdown. On top of this, Black can simply use Immortal Zamasu to tank Kaioken attacks for him and Kaioken lasts very short time.

SSB Kaioken was originally a very rare, life-risking move. Toei Anime even included an episode where Goku had problem with ki strain after using SSB Kaioken against Hit. ToP arc ruined this narrative by having Goku use Kaioken ever 10 minutes, but it is irrelevant to the original intention of the writers. SSB Kaioken was supposed to be a very extreme move, and the fact that Goku used it against Fused Zamasu is an outlier. It simply means that Zamasu was so almighty, so invincible, that Goku had to use his absolute most extreme move (and indeed Goku shattered his legs while using Kaioken against Zamasu).

ToP arc cheapened SSB Kaioken, it was not a cheap move at all in previous arcs. It was an extreme move.

[Kazuya Mishima]

How do Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x20 Goku, Ultra Instinct Sign Goku, Super Saiyan Kefla, Super Saiyan 2 Kefla, GoD Toppo and Super Saiyan Blue Evolved Vegeta stack up against each other?

Super Saiyan Kefla was meant to be as powerful as the U7 Spirit Bomb right? So surely she should be stronger than SSB KK Goku.

Is it right that Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was stronger than what Ultra Instinct Sign Goku was the first time he used it? Didn't Piccolo say as much? Or was he referring to SSB KK?

I imagine SSBE Vegeta was as strong as the KK x20 Goku right? Even though he didn't specifically say it was X20 it had to be yeah?

So where does Toppo fit amongst this? He was ultimately beaten by Vegeta who probably never was as strong as Ultra Instinct Sign at any point so he should be weaker than Super Saiyan Kefla though that's only if Piccolo was referring to her being stronger than Ultra Instinct Sign.

[ZombieVito]

How do Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x20 Goku, Ultra Instinct Sign Goku, Super Saiyan Kefla, Super Saiyan 2 Kefla, GoD Toppo and Super Saiyan Blue Evolved Vegeta stack up against each other?

Super Saiyan Kefla was meant to be as powerful as the U7 Spirit Bomb right? So surely she should be stronger than SSB KK Goku.

Is it right that Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was stronger than what Ultra Instinct Sign Goku was the first time he used it? Didn't Piccolo say as much? Or was he referring to SSB KK?

I imagine SSBE Vegeta was as strong as the KK x20 Goku right? Even though he didn't specifically say it was X20 it had to be yeah?

So where does Toppo fit amongst this? He was ultimately beaten by Vegeta who probably never was as strong as Ultra Instinct Sign at any point so he should be weaker than Super Saiyan Kefla though that's only if Piccolo was referring to her being stronger than Ultra Instinct Sign.

UIO Goku [EP 129] > SSBE Vegeta [EP 126] > GoD Toppo > UIO Goku [EP 116] = SSBKK20 Goku [EP 123] = SSBE Vegeta > SS2 Kefla > UIO Goku [EP 110] > SS Kefla = SSBKK20 Goku [EP 115] > U7 Genkidama > SSBKK20 Goku.

[Goku9001]

How do Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x20 Goku, Ultra Instinct Sign Goku, Super Saiyan Kefla, Super Saiyan 2 Kefla, GoD Toppo and Super Saiyan Blue Evolved Vegeta stack up against each other?

Super Saiyan Kefla was meant to be as powerful as the U7 Spirit Bomb right? So surely she should be stronger than SSB KK Goku.

Is it right that Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was stronger than what Ultra Instinct Sign Goku was the first time he used it? Didn't Piccolo say as much? Or was he referring to SSB KK?

I imagine SSBE Vegeta was as strong as the KK x20 Goku right? Even though he didn't specifically say it was X20 it had to be yeah?

So where does Toppo fit amongst this? He was ultimately beaten by Vegeta who probably never was as strong as Ultra Instinct Sign at any point so he should be weaker than Super Saiyan Kefla though that's only if Piccolo was referring to her being stronger than Ultra Instinct Sign.

UI Omen Goku (129) > Blue Evolved Vegeta (126) > GoD Toppo > Blue Evolved Vegeta (124) ~ KKx20 Blue Goku (124) > Blue Goku/Vegeta (122) > UI Omen Goku Powered Up (116) > Super Saiyan 2 Kefla ~ UI Omen Goku Initial (116) > UI Omen Goku (110) > Super Saiyan Kefla ~ KKx20 Blue Goku (115) ~ U7 Genkidama Combo > U7 Genkidama > KKx20 Blue Goku (109)

Powerscaling escalated significantly during their final battle with Jiren. Jiren (122) was explicitly stated to be the strongest power they ever encountered. Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta going toe-to-toe with him lead me to believe that they surpassed Kefla and prior iterations of UI Omen Goku. At the very least, Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta surpassed Super Saiyan Kefla since Belmod was more concerned about Vegeta's Final Flash than the Genkidama Goku used against Jiren. Final Flash is inherently much weaker than a Genkidama.

As a bare minimum, Blue Vegeta (vs. Jiren) should have surpassed KKx20 Blue Goku by a wide margin when he fought Kefla. He should realistically be closing in on Super Saiyan 2 Kefla and UI Omen Goku (116). With a 20x multiplier for Vegeta in addition to a notable edge GoD Toppo had on Vegeta initially should have GoD Toppo outstrip both Kefla and UI Omen Goku (116).

[SupremeKai25]

How do Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x20 Goku, Ultra Instinct Sign Goku, Super Saiyan Kefla, Super Saiyan 2 Kefla, GoD Toppo and Super Saiyan Blue Evolved Vegeta stack up against each other?

UI Sign Goku and Kefla are in a completely different level.

Kefla is almighty as she is a Potara fusion, the Potara fusion is unique as it multiplies the power of the fuées exponentially. UI Goku matched that so obviously he's also superior to mere SSB level fighters.

SSB Evolved Vegeta and SSB Kaioken Goku are stated by Toei writer to be equal, Toppo was defeated by SSB Evolved Vegeta so he cannot compare to a Potara fusion and UI Goku.

Potara fusions and UI are in a completely different level of power, mere SSBs are fodder against it. That why even SSB Kaioken Goku stood no chance against Fused Zamasu and their own Potara was the only possible answer.

Toppo is weak, he was defeated by SSB Evolved which is only equal to SSB Kaioken.

There is also the fact that SSB doesn't suddenly get hundreds of times stronger just because Goku and Vegeta fight for few minutes, there is no evidence of this and it makes no sense. So SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta doesn't suddenly surpass Kefla's Potara boost just because they fought a few more episodes. They are still fodder to SS2 Kefla.

Ultra Instinct / Potara fusion >>>>>> SSB Evolved/SSB Kaioken > God Toppo

[Kazuya Mishima]

Yeah it doesn't make any sense for Vegeta to have grown drastically stronger like that because he was shown still being an even match for Toppo just as Goku was said to be in the Zen Exhibition.

I don't think they're probably all that different from the Zen Exhibition to the Broly movie.

GoD Toppo was initially stronger than SSBE Vegeta until he surpassed him in turn.

Prior to this the form was about equal to Gokus Kaioken but after this was wondering how high they went. As I said though I don't know if the form ever reached as high as Ultra Instinct so I wouldn't have said Toppo surpassed SS2 Kefla but possibly SS1 Kefla.

[SupremeKai25]

Yeah it doesn't make any sense for Vegeta to have grown drastically stronger like that because he was shown still being an even match for Toppo just as Goku was said to be in the Zen Exhibition.

If SSB can randomly grow hundreds of times stronger by fighting for a few minutes, why they needed fusion against Fused Zamasu? Or even against Buuhan? They could apparently just fight the villain a few more minutes and they'd get arbitrary plot boosts that surpass Potara in the span of a few minutes.

Clearly they don't randomly surpass Potara boost just because they fight a few more minutes. The idea that SSB surpasses Kefla after a few more episodes is illogical and impossible.

Kefla already cemented herself as a threat that only UI Goku could take down, a threat that made Jiren awaken from his meditation, it is clear that mere SSB level cannot compare to her.

SSB Evolved and SSB Kaioken are still SSB level and so they cannot compare to Kefla. Just like they could not compare to Fused Zamasu, with Gowasu noting that they needed a power far greater than what SSB Kaioken exerted to take down Zamasu.

Potara fusion is almighty, it multiplies the power exponentially. Only the absolute top tiers of any arc can compare. SSB Evolved Vegeta and God Toppo are not top tiers of their arc, so they do not compare. Kefla oneshot SSB Kaioken Goku who was stated by Toei to be equal to SSBE Vegeta. SSBE Vegeta and Toppo are fodder to Kefla.

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1028025720751017984


Toei writer confirms that SSB Evolved is only as strong as SSB Kaioken, and Kefla oneshot SSB Kaioken, so SSB Evolved is fodder to Kefla.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Something I always get confused about is people's penchant for always attributing better performance to way higher power levels.

I always saw it as a Vegeta/Goku vs. Broly situation, where Vegeta fights Broly first and doesn't adapt well at first to his escalating skill and power but Goku sees the fight and has a better gauge of how Broly fights with his level of speed and power, and so does a lot better in lower forms because of this foreknowledge.

Similar idea with Jiren and whatnot. At first, he completely dominates Goku, but once Goku has fought him he has a better idea of his speed/power/skill and can better react and fight him knowing this later on.

Hell, this is literally what happens when him and Vegeta fight Jiren together for the first time; Vegeta at first is brushed aside, but then he observes the fight from afar and puts pressure on Jiren for a brief while because he's caught onto Jiren's movements at that level of speed/power and has managed to weave in through that.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Super Saiyan Kefla didn't exactly one shot Kaioken Blue Goku.

Orange Piccolo against Gamma 2 was a one shot. Goku was evenly matched with her for a time even though he was said to not yet be at full strength and he was able to knock her down and injure her so I don't think she's that far above.

In comparison Toppo seemed to have a bigger edge against Evolved Vegeta prior to his boost.

So I'd think Toppo was probably on the same level as Super Saiyan Kefla.

[SupremeKai25]

Super Saiyan Kefla didn't exactly one shot Kaioken Blue Goku.

Yes, this was oneshot in the truest definition of the word:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN-mQ9QyVuY

Goku even mentally sees Kefla coming behind him, but he is too slow to dodge. He is literally oneshot straight back to Base form like fodder and he was too slow for Kefla's movements.

Kefla then lets Goku get back up because she wanted to have more fun fighting him, but she could have simply knocked him out of the ring instead.

Toei writer stated that SSB Kaioken = SSB Evolved, so Kefla can do this to SSB Evolved too. SSB Evolved defeated Toppo, so Kefla is much stronger than Toppo.

[Goku9001]

Something I always get confused about is people's penchant for always attributing better performance to way higher power levels.

I always saw it as a Vegeta/Goku vs. Broly situation, where Vegeta fights Broly first and doesn't adapt well at first to his escalating skill and power but Goku sees the fight and has a better gauge of how Broly fights with his level of speed and power, and so does a lot better in lower forms because of this foreknowledge.

Similar idea with Jiren and whatnot. At first, he completely dominates Goku, but once Goku has fought him he has a better idea of his speed/power/skill and can better react and fight him knowing this later on.

Hell, this is literally what happens when him and Vegeta fight Jiren together for the first time; Vegeta at first is brushed aside, but then he observes the fight from afar and puts pressure on Jiren for a brief while because he's caught onto Jiren's movements at that level of speed/power and has managed to weave in through that.

You can blame the anime and it's obsession over Vegeta breaking his limits while fighting Jiren unlike the case with Broly where the movie doesn't suffer from this strange obsession.

[ZombieVito]

Something I always get confused about is people's penchant for always attributing better performance to way higher power levels.

I always saw it as a Vegeta/Goku vs. Broly situation, where Vegeta fights Broly first and doesn't adapt well at first to his escalating skill and power but Goku sees the fight and has a better gauge of how Broly fights with his level of speed and power, and so does a lot better in lower forms because of this foreknowledge.

Similar idea with Jiren and whatnot. At first, he completely dominates Goku, but once Goku has fought him he has a better idea of his speed/power/skill and can better react and fight him knowing this later on.

Hell, this is literally what happens when him and Vegeta fight Jiren together for the first time; Vegeta at first is brushed aside, but then he observes the fight from afar and puts pressure on Jiren for a brief while because he's caught onto Jiren's movements at that level of speed/power and has managed to weave in through that.

For a long ass time I shared this same idea. That the Saiyans just unlocked new forms and never grew stronger in their normal forms but then I rewatched the episode where Vegeta unlocks SSBE and I really can't see how they didn't grew stronger.

SSBE Vegeta and SSBKK20 Goku are treated like the last hope for U7 and that simply doesn't work if they are weaker than UIO Goku from episode 116.

I don't have SSB Goku surpassing that UIO Goku though. That's too ridiculous for me. I only have Goku getting 5 times stronger between episodes 110-116.

[Thani]

Something I always get confused about is people's penchant for always attributing better performance to way higher power levels.

I always saw it as a Vegeta/Goku vs. Broly situation, where Vegeta fights Broly first and doesn't adapt well at first to his escalating skill and power but Goku sees the fight and has a better gauge of how Broly fights with his level of speed and power, and so does a lot better in lower forms because of this foreknowledge.

Similar idea with Jiren and whatnot. At first, he completely dominates Goku, but once Goku has fought him he has a better idea of his speed/power/skill and can better react and fight him knowing this later on.

Hell, this is literally what happens when him and Vegeta fight Jiren together for the first time; Vegeta at first is brushed aside, but then he observes the fight from afar and puts pressure on Jiren for a brief while because he's caught onto Jiren's movements at that level of speed/power and has managed to weave in through that.

For a long ass time I shared this same idea. That the Saiyans just unlocked new forms and never grew stronger in their normal forms but then I rewatched the episode where Vegeta unlocks SSBE and I really can't see how they didn't grew stronger.

SSBE Vegeta and SSBKK20 Goku are treated like the last hope for U7 and that simply doesn't work if they are weaker than UIO Goku from episode 116.

I don't have SSB Goku surpassing that UIO Goku though. That's too ridiculous for me. I only have Goku getting 5 times stronger between episodes 110-116.

To be fair, they still were. Goku for sure wasn't using Ultra Instinct against Jiren in that time, with no indication it would happen again, so they had to do what they could. They were weaker than Jiren, but they would have to pull a win anyway, or lose trying.

[Hugo Boss]

SSBE Vegeta and SSBKK20 Goku are treated like the last hope for U7 and that simply doesn't work if they are weaker than UIO Goku from episode 116.

They can be weaker than Ultra Instinct Sign individually but stronger when fighting together. Though, that doesn’t mean Goku hadn’t got stronger, since he was able to beat SS Kefla around despite her being as powerful as the spirit bomb he used against Jiren. I just don’t think he overlapped the level of Ultra Instinct Sign’s first appearance, because at that point he was still significantly above the spirit bomb.

[Noah]

I don't follow the manga closely, but could someone explain to me what the actual difference is between Mastered Ultra Instinct and True Ultra Instinct? I thought the final form of this technique was precisely the one with white hair, so does that mean Toyotaro decided to abandon that and claim that it's actually another form that resembles Ultra Instinct Sign more?

[Thani]

I don't follow the manga closely, but could someone explain to me what the actual difference is between Mastered Ultra Instinct and True Ultra Instinct? I thought the final form of this technique was precisely the one with white hair, so does that mean Toyotaro decided to abandon that and claim that it's actually another form that resembles Ultra Instinct Sign more?

From what I gathered, it's just Sign with Goku using his emotions to work for him. "Mastered/Perfected" Ultra Instinct requires a state of mind that goes against Goku's saiyan instincts, so he wasn't getting ahead against Gas in their fight (Goku was furious with Gas at that point, so his performance in UI was lacking). With Sign, Goku managed to not require this relaxed, emotionless state of mind in order to make the most out of Ultra Instinct, which allowed him to style on Gas for a while.

Ultra Instinct is still superior to "True Sign", as I'll call it now, but the latter is overall a better fit for Goku.

Regular UI works better when Goku can maintain that emotionless state of mind.
True Sign works better when Goku is unable to maintain it, so he can opt to use it to use his emotions in his favor.

But I imagine Toyo will have True Sign become the mainstay in Goku's arsenal regarding Ultra Instinct, since, by his narrative, is a better fit for his own fighting style.