Unpopular DB opinions

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Kai is the way to go for the Namek arc. 35 episodes from the time Gohan, Kuririn (Krillin) and Bulma land as opposed to 63. When I have time I'll still rewatch the long as hell Goku vs Freeza fight because I have such fond memories of that battle, which I think will always have a special place in shounen history.

[coola]

Story and world building is very important to me, so when Super suddenly started to ignore or retcon stuff, like ignoring Trunks creating different timelines when he time traveled, that's one of main reasons i don't enjoy "modern" Dragon Ball at all...

[ABED]

Story and world building is very important to me, so when Super suddenly started to ignore or retcon stuff, like ignoring Trunks creating different timelines when he time traveled, that's one of main reasons i don't enjoy "modern" Dragon Ball at all...

How did they ignore Trunks creating two different timelines?

[SupremeKai25]

Story and world building is very important to me, so when Super suddenly started to ignore or retcon stuff, like ignoring Trunks creating different timelines when he time traveled, that's one of main reasons i don't enjoy "modern" Dragon Ball at all...

Zamasu literally brings up Trunks' time-split actions from DBZ as one of the main motivations for his plan of genocide and the writers even used flashbacks to the Original series while Zamasu was stating his motive. Gowasu showed Zamasu the Time rings (=new timelines) created by Trunks and Cell in the Original series, which is when Zamasu started hating mortals for time travel. Super most certainly did not ignore this plot point as it is one of the key plot points of Future Trunks saga and Zamasu's motivation.

If anything, Super has merit of covering some of the gaps left by the Original series. In Original series, it is never explained how Future Trunks, who was fodder to Perfect Cell, could deal with Majin Buu in his timeline. Super answers the decades-long question of how Future Trunks could deal with Majin Buu.

[coola]

Story and world building is very important to me, so when Super suddenly started to ignore or retcon stuff, like ignoring Trunks creating different timelines when he time traveled, that's one of main reasons i don't enjoy "modern" Dragon Ball at all...

How did they ignore Trunks creating two different timelines?

Future Zamasu remember he spared with Goku, with couldn't happen, because it was different timeline...

[ABED]

Story and world building is very important to me, so when Super suddenly started to ignore or retcon stuff, like ignoring Trunks creating different timelines when he time traveled, that's one of main reasons i don't enjoy "modern" Dragon Ball at all...

How did they ignore Trunks creating two different timelines?

Future Zamasu remember he spared with Goku, with couldn't happen, because it was different timeline...

It's timetravel and I go crosseyed thinking about it. It's not a fault of the writing, it's just a fact of timetravel stories. They don't make sense when you get right down to it. In DBZ, how does Trunks return to his present after changing the past? Questions like that don't have a good answer. The best answer is simply "because the story said so".

[Scsigs]

It's timetravel and I go crosseyed thinking about it. It's not a fault of the writing, it's just a fact of timetravel stories. They don't make sense when you get right down to it. In DBZ, how does Trunks return to his present after changing the past? Questions like that don't have a good answer. The best answer is simply "because the story said so".

I feel the need to say all this...
The time travel in DB that Trunks does is like in Avengers: Endgame & Star Trek '09; it creates alternate timelines rather than change the timeline the traveler is from. Why does Trunks return to his future timeline after changing the past? Because his time machine is apparently able to. Knowing Bulma, she's a scientist & most likely accounted for that, giving the time machine the ability to return to their future & traverse timelines & it can be programmed by the pilot. It'd certainly explain how the time displaced duplicate time machine Cell traveled back in would be able to go to the version of the future timeline it's not from in Super. Considering the series never contradicts that & it's the only feasible explanation, I tend to go with that. It's the least problematic time travel device in the series because I find Goku Black/Zamasu's use of a Time Ring somehow taking him to Future Trunks' timeline the more confusing. Trunks' time machine, you're given enough things to go off of to assume how shit works & it's not contradicted. The Time Ring, nope. Just bullshit Kai magic, I guess. Even though he's pulled back to the future while wearing one, ok.

[90sDBZ]

I really like Sumitomo's Kai TFC score, and consider it a breath of fresh air after the limited Kikuchi score in the previous Kai arcs.

I like it to the point that I was excited to hear several of the tracks return later on in Super.

[SupremeKai25]

Story and world building is very important to me, so when Super suddenly started to ignore or retcon stuff, like ignoring Trunks creating different timelines when he time traveled, that's one of main reasons i don't enjoy "modern" Dragon Ball at all...

How did they ignore Trunks creating two different timelines?

Future Zamasu remember he spared with Goku, with couldn't happen, because it was different timeline...

This is wrong, Future Zamasu never remembers this. Goku Black remembers this, he is not Future Zamasu as explained in the Story itself, he is Present Zamasu from an unaltered timeline where no one stopped him from killing Gowasu. When Present Gowasu goes to Future, he mistakenly calls Future Zamasu his apprentice and Goku reminds him that Black is actually his apprentice, not Future Zamasu. Future Zamasu never fights Goku because he was dead in his timeline, therefore he is not the Zamasu who plotted to kill Gowasu and steal Goku's body. We see that Future Zamasu needed Goku Black (= Present Zamasu) to find the strength to start genocidal plan, on his own he lacked the guts to move against Gowasu.

All of this is in the Story itself and Toei even made a meticulous chart explaining all the time travel jumps in the saga.

Spoiler:

It's timetravel and I go crosseyed thinking about it. It's not a fault of the writing, it's just a fact of timetravel stories. They don't make sense when you get right down to it. In DBZ, how does Trunks return to his present after changing the past? Questions like that don't have a good answer. The best answer is simply "because the story said so".

I feel the need to say all this...
The time travel in DB that Trunks does is like in Avengers: Endgame & Star Trek '09; it creates alternate timelines rather than change the timeline the traveler is from. Why does Trunks return to his future timeline after changing the past? Because his time machine is apparently able to. Knowing Bulma, she's a scientist & most likely accounted for that, giving the time machine the ability to return to their future & traverse timelines & it can be programmed by the pilot. It'd certainly explain how the time displaced duplicate time machine Cell traveled back in would be able to go to the version of the future timeline it's not from in Super. Considering the series never contradicts that & it's the only feasible explanation, I tend to go with that. It's the least problematic time travel device in the series because I find Goku Black/Zamasu's use of a Time Ring somehow taking him to Future Trunks' timeline the more confusing. Trunks' time machine, you're given enough things to go off of to assume how shit works & it's not contradicted. The Time Ring, nope. Just bullshit Kai magic, I guess. Even though he's pulled back to the future while wearing one, ok.

Supreme Kais are the Gods tasked with creating and nurturing mortal species. It makes sense that they are given time powers so that they can see the future of the species that they create and help to guide along the path of evolution. The logistics is just "Bullshit Kai magic" (just like Kamehameha is just bullshit blue magic), but it fits with the world-building that Supreme Kais would have Time powers... they need to watch over the evolution of mortals, so time powers allow them to see the future of the species they created and helped grow. It perfectly fits with world-building.

Zamasu was using a temporary time distortion caused by Trunks' time machine to go to the Past... that why the Time Ring reacted and opened the time distortion in the exact spot where Trunks escaped with time machine. The time distortion was temporary, so Zamasu was inevitably pulled back to the future.

[ABED]

It's timetravel and I go crosseyed thinking about it. It's not a fault of the writing, it's just a fact of timetravel stories. They don't make sense when you get right down to it. In DBZ, how does Trunks return to his present after changing the past? Questions like that don't have a good answer. The best answer is simply "because the story said so".

I feel the need to say all this...
The time travel in DB that Trunks does is like in Avengers: Endgame & Star Trek '09; it creates alternate timelines rather than change the timeline the traveler is from. Why does Trunks return to his future timeline after changing the past? Because his time machine is apparently able to. Knowing Bulma, she's a scientist & most likely accounted for that, giving the time machine the ability to return to their future & traverse timelines & it can be programmed by the pilot. It'd certainly explain how the time displaced duplicate time machine Cell traveled back in would be able to go to the version of the future timeline it's not from in Super. Considering the series never contradicts that & it's the only feasible explanation, I tend to go with that. It's the least problematic time travel device in the series because I find Goku Black/Zamasu's use of a Time Ring somehow taking him to Future Trunks' timeline the more confusing. Trunks' time machine, you're given enough things to go off of to assume how shit works & it's not contradicted. The Time Ring, nope. Just bullshit Kai magic, I guess. Even though he's pulled back to the future while wearing one, ok.

You are overthinking this. Toriyama didn't care as the actual logic of timetravel (inherently illogical) doesn't matter when you get right down to it. Trunks doesn't return bc Bulma may have accounted for it. He returns to his time bc it's more cathartic for Trunks to kill the cyborgs that ruined his timeline. If Bulma knew all this, why bother making a time machine to begin with since nothing Trunks did in the past would change her present. If she did know, why not tell Trunks?

[ZeroIsOurHero]

If Bulma knew all this, why bother making a time machine to begin with since nothing Trunks did in the past would change her present. If she did know, why not tell Trunks?

They literally answer this in the show, though. I went back to the scene in episode 139 where Trunks remembers his own timeline (a scene that's always stuck with me because of the amazing song in the background), and Yamcha and Krillin literally ask him your exact question:

Krillin: "Just a minute, Trunks. You mean, even supposing that Goku is capable of defeating the Artificial Humans... In your future, won't they still exist there, same as ever?

Trunks: "That's right."

Yamcha: "In that case, Trunks, what did you even come here for? After all, your world won't be changed."

Trunks: "Mom... Mom was so ticked off by us always being clobbered by the Artificial Humans, she thought it would be nice if there was a peaceful future, where they had been beaten. But her primary goal was to have me fight with Goku against the Artificial Humans, to find a weakness in them. If that didn't work, I would have Goku come to our future to defeat them there, or something like that."

That exact conversation was in the manga, too. Toriyama put way more thought into the time travel element than you're giving him credit for.

[ABED]

If Bulma knew all this, why bother making a time machine to begin with since nothing Trunks did in the past would change her present. If she did know, why not tell Trunks?

They literally answer this in the show, though. I went back to the scene in episode 139 where Trunks remembers his own timeline (a scene that's always stuck with me because of the amazing song in the background), and Yamcha and Krillin literally ask him your exact question:

Krillin: "Just a minute, Trunks. You mean, even supposing that Goku is capable of defeating the Artificial Humans... In your future, won't they still exist there, same as ever?

Trunks: "That's right."

Yamcha: "In that case, Trunks, what did you even come here for? After all, your world won't be changed."

Trunks: "Mom... Mom was so ticked off by us always being clobbered by the Artificial Humans, she thought it would be nice if there was a peaceful future, where they had been beaten. But her primary goal was to have me fight with Goku against the Artificial Humans, to find a weakness in them. If that didn't work, I would have Goku come to our future to defeat them there, or something like that."

That exact conversation was in the manga, too. Toriyama put way more thought into the time travel element than you're giving him credit for.

Fair enough but it still doesn't answer why he didn't know. If she knew why would Trunks be shocked that events are different? Also, how is he getting back? Besides, this scene came AFTER he came back. I think Toriyama realized the logic gap and filled it in as best he could. So no, I don't think he put way more thought into it than you assume I give him credit for. Like most long term storytelling, people come up with story and continuity and then fill in logic gaps afterwards so it appears well thought out.

Apparently not only does his time machine travel through time, it travels across different timelines. The reason it can has nothing to do with well thought out logic. It has EVERYTHING to do with the current timeline being the one the audience is following and Trunks being able to return to HIS present because defeating those cyborgs is the cathartic ending to his story.

[ZeroIsOurHero]

Fair enough but it still doesn't answer why he didn't know. If she knew why would Trunks be shocked that events are different? Also, how is he getting back? Besides, this scene came AFTER he came back. I think Toriyama realized the logic gap and filled it in as best he could. So no, I don't think he put way more thought into it than you assume I give him credit for. Like most long term storytelling, people come up with story and continuity and then fill in logic gaps afterwards so it appears well thought out.

Apparently not only does his time machine travel through time, it travels across different timelines. The reason it can has nothing to do with well thought out logic. It has EVERYTHING to do with the current timeline being the one the audience is following and Trunks being able to return to HIS present because defeating those cyborgs is the cathartic ending to his story.

I get what you’re saying. I’m not trying to excuse the whole “19 and 20 aren’t actually the Androids” retcon, that’s dumb no matter which way you slice it. But I don’t think that retcon has anything to do with why Toriyama went with the “parallel universe” angle to his take on time travel. The many-worlds interpretation of the universe is pretty well-known in the sci-fi genre, and I’m sure Toriyama would have picked up on it at some point. It was mainly used in Dragon Ball to get that cathartic ending of Trunks defeating the Androids, I will admit that. But I don’t think that means Toriyama just pulled it out of his behind.

And as for “how does Trunks manage to return to his timeline”, do we really need to know? If Trunks stopped the story dead to explain how his mother was brilliant enough to program a Reality-Phase Manipulator into the time machine in order to allow travel between any worlds the machine’s time travel created, it would destroy the flow of the action. Dragon Ball is a series about fighting, first and foremost.

[ABED]

Fair enough but it still doesn't answer why he didn't know. If she knew why would Trunks be shocked that events are different? Also, how is he getting back? Besides, this scene came AFTER he came back. I think Toriyama realized the logic gap and filled it in as best he could. So no, I don't think he put way more thought into it than you assume I give him credit for. Like most long term storytelling, people come up with story and continuity and then fill in logic gaps afterwards so it appears well thought out.

Apparently not only does his time machine travel through time, it travels across different timelines. The reason it can has nothing to do with well thought out logic. It has EVERYTHING to do with the current timeline being the one the audience is following and Trunks being able to return to HIS present because defeating those cyborgs is the cathartic ending to his story.

I get what you’re saying. I’m not trying to excuse the whole “19 and 20 aren’t actually the Androids” retcon, that’s dumb no matter which way you slice it. But I don’t think that retcon has anything to do with why Toriyama went with the “parallel universe” angle to his take on time travel. The many-worlds interpretation of the universe is pretty well-known in the sci-fi genre, and I’m sure Toriyama would have picked up on it at some point. It was mainly used in Dragon Ball to get that cathartic ending of Trunks defeating the Androids, I will admit that. But I don’t think that means Toriyama just pulled it out of his behind.

And as for “how does Trunks manage to return to his timeline”, do we really need to know? If Trunks stopped the story dead to explain how his mother was brilliant enough to program a Reality-Phase Manipulator into the time machine in order to allow travel between any worlds the machine’s time travel created, it would destroy the flow of the action. Dragon Ball is a series about fighting, first and foremost.

The questions I'm asking are rhetorical. I agree that those questions don't need to be answered. The audience goes along with it without the story needing to stop and fill in every possible question about the loigc of time travel and multiverses and timelines.

Side issue, but I think the only retcon concerning 19 and 20 iare the number change.

[Scsigs]

The retcon about Gero & 19 came because Toriyama's editor at the time didn't like their designs & complained about them to Toriyama, so he came up with 17 & 18. Then his editor didn't like them either, so he came up with Cell. Then the stuff about his editor not liking Cell's first 2 forms & the rest is history. I'm sure Toriyama would've rolled with just Gero & 19 if those didn't happen, but these things happen sometimes.

[Zephyr]

The first two instances were actually his former editor, Torishima, phoning him to complain.

[ZeroIsOurHero]

Yeah, I heard about the "complaining editors not liking any of the villains" story. It's honestly a miracle that the Android arc was even somewhat coherent with how much those two guys were breathing down Toriyama's neck. But we got Perfect Cell out of it, so who am I to complain?

[MasenkoHA]

Yeah, I heard about the "complaining editors not liking any of the villains" story. It's honestly a miracle that the Android arc was even somewhat coherent with how much those two guys were breathing down Toriyama's neck. But we got Perfect Cell out of it, so who am I to complain?

The story was better for Toriyama having listen to his former editor and current editor, but fans don't want to hear that, apparently.

[Scsigs]

I agree. The story, though not without plot holes, is kept moving & keeps you guessing as to what happens next. It gave us Future Trunks, 1 of the best characters in the series, it gave us interesting villains in the Androids/Cyborgs, gave us a fun time travel adventure, & allowed for the series to go places where it hadn't before. Hell, the History of Trunks special is still 1 of the best standalone stories in the franchise. Toriyama's editor actually helped out with the story by having him switch up the villains. I don't know where the story of the arc could've gone without them. It seems like it would've probably been pretty formulaic or standard, which may have been disappointing.

[ABED]

Yeah, I heard about the "complaining editors not liking any of the villains" story. It's honestly a miracle that the Android arc was even somewhat coherent with how much those two guys were breathing down Toriyama's neck. But we got Perfect Cell out of it, so who am I to complain?

The story was better for Toriyama having listen to his former editor and current editor, but fans don't want to hear that, apparently.

It's likely due to how the artistic process is misunderstood. No artist is better off for not taking feedback. That's the purpose of an editor.

With the exception of the hiccup/retcon of the cyborg designations changing, the transition from 19 and 20 to Cell is an organic one due to the time travel / butterfly effect element.