Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Kazuya Mishima]

I don't think there's anything to say Goku grew any stronger in Blue form over the Tournament of Power.

Champa's comments on Blue Goku against Kefla and the latter standing a chance because Goku still hadn't recovered yet from when he fought Jiren more than implies that Blue Goku grew no more powerful.

[Goku9001]

Goku is blatantly stated to have grown stronger during their fight. Their powers were constantly rising as their powers were crashing into each other. In the end, KKx20 Blue Goku's power rivals the Genkidama explosion that occurred during Goku's initial fight with Jiren.

[ZombieVito]

I looked and didn't see such statements in the episode previews. Are you talking about another episodic translation or different preview?

It was a printed preview on a Japanese magazine. Let me see if I can find it.

Edit: There you go!



https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/7933 ... 12448?s=20

[SupremeKai25]

I looked and didn't see such statements in the episode previews. Are you talking about another episodic translation or different preview?

It was a printed preview on a Japanese magazine. Let me see if I can find it.

Edit: There you go!

The episode made it clear that it was a life-risking attack. After using that attack, Goku could no longer move his body and Shin had to help him raise his chest. His body was completely broken. The episode matched the leak fully.

And another interesting thing is that Fused Zamasu "erased" their ki blasts, which I imagine had to do with his Divine Halo... it's almost like the writers gave Fused Zamasu a "proto" version of the Hakai aura that is used by Toppo in the next arc. Conceptually, Zamasu's Barrier of Light and Toppo's Hakai aura serve the same purpose in a fight, as they erase incoming ki blasts.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I don't think there's anything to say Goku grew any stronger in Blue form over the Tournament of Power.

Champa's comments on Blue Goku against Kefla and the latter standing a chance because Goku still hadn't recovered yet from when he fought Jiren more than implies that Blue Goku grew no more powerful.

Here:

Episode: 113
Time: 10:01-10:40
Context: Caulifla keeps up with Goku
Krillin: "She saw through Goku's attack!"
Roshi: "Unbelievable! Caulifla is responding to Goku's movements! What astounding adaptability!"
Krillin: "Super Saiyan or not, this is Goku she's fighting!"
Whis: "It means that Caulifla san had this potential within her from the start. By fighting Goku san, that power is steadily being unleashed."

Episode: 113
Time: 14:14-14:36
Context: After they spar on a bit and Goku kicked Caulifla
Goku: "Not yet! I haven't show you my power yet!"
Caulifla: "I won't lose!"
*Both powers up*
Krillin: "Just how far are they going to go?"
Roshi: "There's no telling who's going to win!"
Cabba: "Amazing! I didn't realize Caulifla san had such power!"

Episode: 115
Time: 14:08-14:17
Context: As Goku and Kefla fight each other
Whis: "Their energy is getting even stronger."
Beerus: "Just how far are they going to go?!"
Champa: "Are they trying to break the fighting stage?!"
U6 Kaioshin: "Amazing!"

I couldn't find the statement saying Goku vs Kefla could go either way, but I think this one is almost it. Kefla was pushing through her limits to keep up and Goku could have finished the fight if Kefla didn't dodge it.

Episode: 115
Time: 17:44-18:09
Context: Kefla survived from Goku's clean hit
Krillin: "She's a persistent one."
Tien: "She took a clean blow from Goku."
Roshi: "That Kefla is well beyond her limit. And yet, she still fights back."
Whis: "What drives Kefla san is the Saiyan blood flowing in her."
Beerus: "You can't use King Kai Fist at your current stamina anymore. You know you have to finish this in the next shot, right, Goku?"

Goku and Vegeta are no longer young, they have peaked.

Black is special and unique compared to them because he's a God piloting a mortal body, this opens up a whole new evolution route for him that obviously isn't available for normal saiyans...

That why, as supported by most recent chapter, Goku and Vegeta's evolution no longer revolves around strength, but around their use and mastery of Ki.

That's the oldest trope in the book. It always ends like this:

Spoiler:

[SupremeKai25]

-snip-

The first statement is about Caulifla. The other two statements do not indicate that SSB was growing stronger and breaking its limits, it can simply refer to Goku having to use higher % of the power that he already has available in his reserves.

I couldn't find the statement saying Goku vs Kefla could go either way, but I think this one is almost it. Kefla was pushing through her limits to keep up and Goku could have finished the fight if Kefla didn't dodge it.

This actually proves the opposite point, because if SSB continuously grows stronger, why Goku needs to finish the fight quickly in one shot? He can grow continuously stronger, doesn't he benefit from dragging out the fight, like Kefla is doing?

All these statements are hyping Caulifla and Kefla, not Goku. I read these statements and I am impressed by Caulifla and Kefla, but I don't see why I should be impressed by Goku.

That's the oldest trope in the book. It always ends like this:

Didn't Vegeta get effortlessly oneshot by Zamasu right after that boast though?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4K90lmL3oM&t=55s

Vegeta is arrogant and prideful, ofc he's going to gloat about having no limits. If they truly had no limits, they wouldn't have needed to merge into Gogeta to survive against Broly.

[Goku9001]

Goku's growth during his battle with Caulifa is no different than Goku Black's growth during his battle with Goku. Black was noted to be suppressed during the entire fight and yet his increase in power was attributed to his full power increasing rather than him using more of his available power. Goku and Caulifa clashing against each other and growing stronger as a result of it was attributed to them being Saiyans. Saiyans are known for their rapid increase in power and constantly breaking limits. It's clear-cut what is being implied here. It's not as though Goku and Caulifa's progression are differentiated from each other. They are treated the same. The end result is KKx20 Blue Goku's power reaching the level of the U7 Genkidama Explosion.

[Hugo Boss]

I think Whis comparing SS Kefla to the spirit bomb is a good indication that Goku got stronger overall as well. Otherwise he wouldn’t have a slight edge over SS Kefla without the spirit bomb power itself. So, it seems Goku absorbed it in his fight against Jiren and can wield that much power as long as he is in Blue Kaioken form. I see no reason why this power-up wouldn’t carry on his other forms.

[Goku9001]

I think Whis comparing SS Kefla to the spirit bomb is a good indication that Goku got stronger overall as well. Otherwise he wouldn’t have a slight edge over SS Kefla without the spirit bomb power itself. So, it seems Goku absorbed it in his fight against Jiren and can wield that much power as long as he is in Blue Kaioken form. I see no reason why this power-up wouldn’t carry on his other forms.

That is an interesting way of looking at things as well. If it directly enhanced his Blue Kaioken form, then I agree that there's no reason why this wouldn't carry to at least his Blue form. Kaioken is a static multiplier on top of his Blue form. If his Blue Kaioken form had improved, then it follows that his Blue form had also improved.

[Miracles]

I looked and didn't see such statements in the episode previews. Are you talking about another episodic translation or different preview?

It was a printed preview on a Japanese magazine. Let me see if I can find it.

Edit: There you go!



https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/7933 ... 12448?s=20

Appreciate that. Still the fact remains Goku didn't use full power against Goku Black. He certainly didn't even use Kaioken against him.

[Miracles]

Also, I believe Caulifa was growing power wise because she had potential she was building to. While Goku on the other hand was only regaining his strength that he lost from Jiren while fighting Caulifa.Pushing himself against incredible power with an already strained body. Till ultimately it broke his limits reaching UI Sign/UI. I don't see Goku gaining new power while fighting in his lower modes whilst tired other than UI.

[SupremeKai25]

Also, I believe Caulifa was growing power wise because she had potential she was building to. While Goku on the other hand was only regaining his strength that he lost from Jiren while fighting Caulifa.Pushing himself against incredible power with an already strained body. Till ultimately it broke his limits reaching UI Sign/UI. I don't see Goku gaining new power while fighting in his lower modes whilst tired other than UI.

Agreed. This is what happened.

All those statements above ironically prove our point, so I must thank GreatSaiyaman123 for providing them.

Those statements are hyping up Caulifla, and Caulifla is worthy of praise. She had massive untapped potential, the Recruitment episodes touched on this with Cabba praising how quickly she became Super Saiyan and how easily she got attuned to it. During the Tournament, it is Caulifla who is growing, constantly unlocking more and more of her hidden potential (UI Goku notwithstanding).

I forgot that Caulifla was this hyped in the Story, I only remembered her as fodder for Kefla. A mere stepping stone for Kefla. But those statements have reminded Me that she was a force to be reckoned with on her own. I stand corrected on Caulifla.

Goku? Goku already peaked, already reached limits, this was stated in FT saga and earlier arcs. All Goku did was regain some of his depleted power and use a higher % of it as a result.

You are also right when you say that it makes no sense for Goku to grow stronger in a weaker form, otherwise UI is worthless and redundant if Goku can just grow hundreds of times stronger in SSB.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

First off, is anyone actually saying Goku got “hundreds of times stronger”? I said a couple posts ago Goku only got a couple or a few times stronger. That’s nothing comparable to god(-like) enemies like Beerus, Zamasu, Jiren or Broly who are dozens, if not hundreds of times stronger.

As for Caulifla:
Before she powers up = Fights evenly with Goku
After she powers up = Fights evenly with Goku
As they fight = Kuririn says they’re getting stronger. Goku says he cannot afford to hold back and that he’d go all out from the start vs Kefla.

I do like HugoBoss’ suggestion that Goku absorbed the Genki-Dama. Whis did say Goku used it as a source of energy. The “Goku hit his limits” “but he has no limits!” has been a trope even before Saiyans and Zenkais were introduced. They faded to the background with transformations, but not completely. Vegeta vs Toppo is the latest example of that.

[ankokudaishogun]

Saiyan BODIES have limits.
Beyond a certain point, they cannot get physically stronger(no zenkai either), and can only get stronger through transformations and, most important, KI: it's the Ki that marks a Saiyan's "no limits growth"

[Goku9001]

The "Saiyans have limits" trope is something that is constantly being broken. If I recall, Vegeta made that statement before their final visit to Trunks' timeline and it's apparent that both Goku and Vegeta had grown significantly stronger. Vegeta had said the same thing prior to the Universe 6 Tournament within the anime and yet Vegeta confirmed that they had grown stronger through their training in the RoSaT. If anything, Vegeta's word on this isn't meant to be taken seriously. He believes they were at their limits and they always surpass them.

[SupremeKai25]

The "Saiyans have limits" trope is something that is constantly being broken. If I recall, Vegeta made that statement before their final visit to Trunks' timeline and it's apparent that both Goku and Vegeta had grown significantly stronger. Vegeta had said the same thing prior to the Universe 6 Tournament within the anime and yet Vegeta confirmed that they had grown stronger through their training in the RoSaT. If anything, Vegeta's word on this isn't meant to be taken seriously. He believes they were at their limits and they always surpass them.

Vegeta broke through his limits by going Evolved SSB. Goku broke through his limits by going UI.

There is no evidence they broke through their limits in just SSB.

Even the speech Vegeta gave to Belmod about breaking limits never showed SSB saiyans.

[Goku9001]

The "Saiyans have limits" trope is something that is constantly being broken. If I recall, Vegeta made that statement before their final visit to Trunks' timeline and it's apparent that both Goku and Vegeta had grown significantly stronger. Vegeta had said the same thing prior to the Universe 6 Tournament within the anime and yet Vegeta confirmed that they had grown stronger through their training in the RoSaT. If anything, Vegeta's word on this isn't meant to be taken seriously. He believes they were at their limits and they always surpass them.

Vegeta broke through his limits by going Evolved SSB. Goku broke through his limits by going UI.

There is no evidence they broke through their limits in just SSB.

Even the speech Vegeta gave to Belmod about breaking limits never showed SSB saiyans.

So you do agree that Vegeta stating that they were at their limits doesn't make it the case.

[SupremeKai25]

The "Saiyans have limits" trope is something that is constantly being broken. If I recall, Vegeta made that statement before their final visit to Trunks' timeline and it's apparent that both Goku and Vegeta had grown significantly stronger. Vegeta had said the same thing prior to the Universe 6 Tournament within the anime and yet Vegeta confirmed that they had grown stronger through their training in the RoSaT. If anything, Vegeta's word on this isn't meant to be taken seriously. He believes they were at their limits and they always surpass them.

Vegeta broke through his limits by going Evolved SSB. Goku broke through his limits by going UI.

There is no evidence they broke through their limits in just SSB.

Even the speech Vegeta gave to Belmod about breaking limits never showed SSB saiyans.

So you do agree that Vegeta stating that they were at their limits doesn't make it the case.

Vegeta when he said that was in SSB... SSB Vegeta reached his limits, that why he got destroyed by Fused Zamasu and needed to fuse with Goku to stand a chance. Fusion always appears when saiyans have reached a ceiling that they cannot break through. Fusion also appeared in Broly movie, because Vegeta peaked with SSB Evolved (necessitating Yardrat training and new form UE in following arcs) and Goku couldn't use UI, which was his new evolving form.

SSB peaked in Future Trunks saga, pushed to the very extreme brink by Fused Zamasu. Fused Zamasu pushed Goku so hard, so far, so severely, that Goku literally breaks his arms and legs just to damage half of Zamasu's face.

In ToP, SSB has already peaked. Saiyans Goku and Vegeta break their limits during that tournament: but not in SSB. Vegeta breaks through his limits by evolving SSB into a new semi-form, SSB Evolved, which is noted by Grand Priest to be Vegeta "Breaking through his shell". Vegeta peaked in SSB, he needed new semi-form (SSB Evolved) to grow stronger. If Vegeta could still grow stronger in SSB, then SSB Evolved would be irrelevant and redundant.

From a writing perspective, UI and SSB Evolved were introduced in the ToP saga because Goku and Vegeta already peaked with SSB. If SSB still had room for evolution on its own, then UI and SSB Evolved (which obviously counts as a semi-separate form) would be unnecessary.

[Goku9001]

Vegeta broke through his limits by going Evolved SSB. Goku broke through his limits by going UI.

There is no evidence they broke through their limits in just SSB.

Even the speech Vegeta gave to Belmod about breaking limits never showed SSB saiyans.

So you do agree that Vegeta stating that they were at their limits doesn't make it the case.

Vegeta when he said that was in SSB... SSB Vegeta reached his limits, that why he got destroyed by Fused Zamasu and needed to fuse with Goku to stand a chance. Fusion always appears when saiyans have reached a ceiling that they cannot break through. Fusion also appeared in Broly movie, because Vegeta peaked with SSB Evolved (necessitating Yardrat training and new form UE in following arcs) and Goku couldn't use UI, which was his new evolving form.

SSB peaked in Future Trunks saga, pushed to the very extreme brink by Fused Zamasu. Fused Zamasu pushed Goku so hard, so far, so severely, that Goku literally breaks his arms and legs just to damage half of Zamasu's face.

In ToP, SSB has already peaked. Saiyans Goku and Vegeta break their limits during that tournament: but not in SSB. Vegeta breaks through his limits by evolving SSB into a new semi-form, SSB Evolved, which is noted by Grand Priest to be Vegeta "Breaking through his shell". Vegeta peaked in SSB, he needed new semi-form (SSB Evolved) to grow stronger. If Vegeta could still grow stronger in SSB, then SSB Evolved would be irrelevant and redundant.

From a writing perspective, UI and SSB Evolved were introduced in the ToP saga because Goku and Vegeta already peaked with SSB. If SSB still had room for evolution on its own, then UI and SSB Evolved (which obviously counts as a semi-separate form) would be unnecessary.

This is a strawman. I'm simply stating that just because there's an assertion of them being at their limits doesn't make it true as we can recall instances where that is clearly not the case.

I agree that the Blue Saiyans peaked once Merged Zamasu mutated. At the time, Gowasu didn't believe fusion was necessary. The Saiyans displayed enough power to force back Merged Zamasu. Once Merged Zamasu's power progressed far enough that the Blue Saiyans could not keep up with it is where Gowasu proposed fusion because their power was no longer enough.

[SupremeKai25]

So you do agree that Vegeta stating that they were at their limits doesn't make it the case.

Vegeta when he said that was in SSB... SSB Vegeta reached his limits, that why he got destroyed by Fused Zamasu and needed to fuse with Goku to stand a chance. Fusion always appears when saiyans have reached a ceiling that they cannot break through. Fusion also appeared in Broly movie, because Vegeta peaked with SSB Evolved (necessitating Yardrat training and new form UE in following arcs) and Goku couldn't use UI, which was his new evolving form.

SSB peaked in Future Trunks saga, pushed to the very extreme brink by Fused Zamasu. Fused Zamasu pushed Goku so hard, so far, so severely, that Goku literally breaks his arms and legs just to damage half of Zamasu's face.

In ToP, SSB has already peaked. Saiyans Goku and Vegeta break their limits during that tournament: but not in SSB. Vegeta breaks through his limits by evolving SSB into a new semi-form, SSB Evolved, which is noted by Grand Priest to be Vegeta "Breaking through his shell". Vegeta peaked in SSB, he needed new semi-form (SSB Evolved) to grow stronger. If Vegeta could still grow stronger in SSB, then SSB Evolved would be irrelevant and redundant.

From a writing perspective, UI and SSB Evolved were introduced in the ToP saga because Goku and Vegeta already peaked with SSB. If SSB still had room for evolution on its own, then UI and SSB Evolved (which obviously counts as a semi-separate form) would be unnecessary.

This is a strawman. I'm simply stating that just because there's an assertion of them being at their limits doesn't make it true as we can recall instances where that is clearly not the case.

In terms of their overall power, they were not at their limits. I never denied this, I have always praised UI Goku as limit-breaking form. They can always evolve through new forms, ofc I don't deny this. Dragon Ball runs on new transformations, Saiyans will always evolve through new, limit-breaking forms.

And one important thing about these new forms is that they always rely on mastery of Ki, technique, skill, rather than pure strength. Goku and Vegeta's evolution is no longer based on pure power level, but on their mastery and skill.

But once they get new form, their older forms because outdated and irrelevant, only used for niche purposes. SSG proves this clearly. SSG never evolves, never grows stronger, it is only used for very niche purpose, as shown by Vegeta vs. Black in Manga.

I agree that the Blue Saiyans peaked once Merged Zamasu mutated. At the time, Gowasu didn't believe fusion was necessary. The Saiyans displayed enough power to force back Merged Zamasu. Once Merged Zamasu's power progressed far enough that the Blue Saiyans could not keep up with it is where Gowasu proposed fusion because their power was no longer enough.

That's only because they had senzu beans.

If they did not have senzu beans, both Goku and Vegeta were finished.

Vegeta was defeated completely when he sacrificed himself to shield Trunks from Zamasu's attack. Goku broke the bones in his body with his life-risking move. Both of them were exhausted and incapacitated. Meanwhile, Zamasu was still standing and overflowing with energy.

Luckily for them, they had senzu beans, so they could have potentially kept fighting against Zamasu if he didn't power-up... but that would still mean that SSB peaked. If they did not have senzu beans, SSB wouldn't have been enough to beat even Pre Power-up Fused Zamasu.

Senzu bean is a cheat code. SSB Kaioken broke through Zamasu's halo but failed to put down the God permanently.