Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Goku9001]

Yep. Not even at full strength, it was enough for Goku to put up a good fight.

That would mean that Kaioken Blue Goku reached power on par with the U7 Genkidama that collided with Jiren's energy.

When he got one shotted? I think that is a stretch. However, logically I can see why you say that because he was going back and forth with Kefla. Again this is why I say it comes down to TOEI's bad writing.

Goku's lack of power wasn't the reason as to why he got one-shotted so the comparison would still hold.

It's not bad writing. The only reason you believe this is because there's a fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between stamina and energy that is being used differently. Thani just provided an example of how energy was being used in this context. This is a reference to power and Blue Goku's energy was growing stronger against Kefla's.

[Miracles]

That would mean that Kaioken Blue Goku reached power on par with the U7 Genkidama that collided with Jiren's energy.

When he got one shotted? I think that is a stretch. However, logically I can see why you say that because he was going back and forth with Kefla. Again this is why I say it comes down to TOEI's bad writing.

Goku's lack of power wasn't the reason as to why he got one-shotted so the comparison would still hold.

It's not bad writing. The only reason you believe this is because there's a fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between stamina and energy that is being used differently. Thani just provided an example of how energy was being used in this context. This is a reference to power and Blue Goku's energy was growing stronger against Kefla's.

Not stated. But what is stated is that Goku was not at full strength and stamina.

[Goku9001]

When he got one shotted? I think that is a stretch. However, logically I can see why you say that because he was going back and forth with Kefla. Again this is why I say it comes down to TOEI's bad writing.

Goku's lack of power wasn't the reason as to why he got one-shotted so the comparison would still hold.

It's not bad writing. The only reason you believe this is because there's a fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between stamina and energy that is being used differently. Thani just provided an example of how energy was being used in this context. This is a reference to power and Blue Goku's energy was growing stronger against Kefla's.

Not stated. But what is stated is that Goku was not at full strength and stamina.

Episode: 115
Time: 13:23-13:33
Context: Blue Goku is clashing with Super Saiyan Kefla.
Whis: "Their energy is getting even stronger."
Beerus: "Just how far are they going to go?!"

What is stated is that Goku and Kefla were going all-out and the only thing that was holding Goku back was his stamina. You haven't provided any statements to suggest that suggests energy and stamina are the same. You keep pushing the narrative that Goku was lacking strength with no mention of any of that by the time Goku harnesses Blue.

[Miracles]

Goku's lack of power wasn't the reason as to why he got one-shotted so the comparison would still hold.

It's not bad writing. The only reason you believe this is because there's a fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between stamina and energy that is being used differently. Thani just provided an example of how energy was being used in this context. This is a reference to power and Blue Goku's energy was growing stronger against Kefla's.

Not stated. But what is stated is that Goku was not at full strength and stamina.

Episode: 115
Time: 13:23-13:33
Context: Blue Goku is clashing with Super Saiyan Kefla.
Whis: "Their energy is getting even stronger."
Beerus: "Just how far are they going to go?!"

What is stated is that Goku and Kefla were going all-out and the only thing that was holding Goku back was his stamina. You haven't provided any statements to suggest that suggests energy and stamina are the same. You keep pushing the narrative that Goku was lacking strength with no mention of any of that by the time Goku harnesses Blue.

All that is in the context of Goku recovering his strength/stamina the more he fought. Hence why he was able to stack Kaioken on Blue.

[Goku9001]

Not stated. But what is stated is that Goku was not at full strength and stamina.

Episode: 115
Time: 13:23-13:33
Context: Blue Goku is clashing with Super Saiyan Kefla.
Whis: "Their energy is getting even stronger."
Beerus: "Just how far are they going to go?!"

What is stated is that Goku and Kefla were going all-out and the only thing that was holding Goku back was his stamina. You haven't provided any statements to suggest that suggests energy and stamina are the same. You keep pushing the narrative that Goku was lacking strength with no mention of any of that by the time Goku harnesses Blue.

All that is in the context of Goku recovering his strength/stamina the more he fought. Hence why he was able to stack Kaioken on Blue.

What is being depicted are two Saiyans at a near-equal level clashing with each other and attempting to outdo each other by going beyond their limits. That isn't a result of stamina recovery. Saiyans don't outdo each other for stamina. This should be obvious because the statement applies to both and Kefla is not low on stamina. In fact, Kefla asserted that she would "go all-out too" after hearing what Goku had to say which means that Goku was also operating at full power.

[Miracles]

What is stated is that Goku and Kefla were going all-out and the only thing that was holding Goku back was his stamina. You haven't provided any statements to suggest that suggests energy and stamina are the same. You keep pushing the narrative that Goku was lacking strength with no mention of any of that by the time Goku harnesses Blue.

All that is in the context of Goku recovering his strength/stamina the more he fought. Hence why he was able to stack Kaioken on Blue.

What is being depicted are two Saiyans at a near-equal level clashing with each other and attempting to outdo each other by going beyond their limits. That isn't a result of stamina recovery. Saiyans don't outdo each other for stamina. This should be obvious because the statement applies to both and Kefla is not low on stamina. In fact, Kefla asserted that she would "go all-out too" after hearing what Goku had to say which means that Goku was also operating at full power.

That's because Goku was already overreaching. Pushing himself with low stamina/energy.

[Goku9001]

All that is in the context of Goku recovering his strength/stamina the more he fought. Hence why he was able to stack Kaioken on Blue.

What is being depicted are two Saiyans at a near-equal level clashing with each other and attempting to outdo each other by going beyond their limits. That isn't a result of stamina recovery. Saiyans don't outdo each other for stamina. This should be obvious because the statement applies to both and Kefla is not low on stamina. In fact, Kefla asserted that she would "go all-out too" after hearing what Goku had to say which means that Goku was also operating at full power.

That's because Goku was already overreaching. Pushing himself with low stamina/energy.

We are already given a statement that likens Goku's energy progression with Kefla's, Beerus questioning the scope of their limits which extends beyond what he's seen from Blue Goku thus far, and Kefla suggesting that it was an all-out battle on both ends. There's no basis for Goku being far from full power. I've already contextualized the scene whereas you are just using your own subtext without contextualizing the scene.

[QuakingStar]

The Manga did it better, the anime messed up in terms of ki/stamina. Toei screwed things up, because Goku doing what he did in the ToP anime is gargage. In the Saiyan Saga and again in the Frieza Saga he was done right before the Spirit Bomb hence needing to use the Spirit Bomb and his only way to get stronger and regain his ki/stamina was when he attains Super Saiyan and it seemingly brings him back to 100% Ki/Stamina, which his first time getting UI seemingly did for him in the Manga and Anime so that nakes sense while the rest of it does not, especially when Kaioken still drains stamina and ki no matter how it's used.

[Miracles]

What is being depicted are two Saiyans at a near-equal level clashing with each other and attempting to outdo each other by going beyond their limits. That isn't a result of stamina recovery. Saiyans don't outdo each other for stamina. This should be obvious because the statement applies to both and Kefla is not low on stamina. In fact, Kefla asserted that she would "go all-out too" after hearing what Goku had to say which means that Goku was also operating at full power.

That's because Goku was already overreaching. Pushing himself with low stamina/energy.

We are already given a statement that likens Goku's energy progression with Kefla's, Beerus questioning the scope of their limits which extends beyond what he's seen from Blue Goku thus far, and Kefla suggesting that it was an all-out battle on both ends. There's no basis for Goku being far from full power. I've already contextualized the scene whereas you are just using your own subtext without contextualizing the scene.

Goku couldn't even transform from base mode when he began fighting Caulifa. That's contextualization that he was far from full power.

[Hugo Boss]

The Manga did it better, the anime messed up in terms of ki/stamina. Toei screwed things up, because Goku doing what he did in the ToP anime is gargage. In the Saiyan Saga and again in the Frieza Saga he was done right before the Spirit Bomb hence needing to use the Spirit Bomb and his only way to get stronger and regain his ki/stamina was when he attains Super Saiyan and it seemingly brings him back to 100% Ki/Stamina, which his first time getting UI seemingly did for him in the Manga and Anime so that nakes sense while the rest of it does not, especially when Kaioken still drains stamina and ki no matter how it's used.

I don’t see those iterations exactly as a depict of Goku regaining his ordinary level of stamina, but rather accessing hidden energy reserves that he would otherwise never use, aka “runner’s high”.

In his first Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct experiences, it's like emptying a gas tank and using the reserve tank, but instead burning it in a much faster rate.

When Goku is fighting the Saiyan girls he is basically making his body get accostumed to transit between his ordinary and extra levels of stamina without much hindrance, which further makes him able to access higher levels of Ultra Instinct performance the more he gets better at controlling his ki, though he still had a long way ahead (occasionally he uses more energy than he is allowed to, like in his SS3 transformation).

[QuakingStar]

The Manga did it better, the anime messed up in terms of ki/stamina. Toei screwed things up, because Goku doing what he did in the ToP anime is gargage. In the Saiyan Saga and again in the Frieza Saga he was done right before the Spirit Bomb hence needing to use the Spirit Bomb and his only way to get stronger and regain his ki/stamina was when he attains Super Saiyan and it seemingly brings him back to 100% Ki/Stamina, which his first time getting UI seemingly did for him in the Manga and Anime so that nakes sense while the rest of it does not, especially when Kaioken still drains stamina and ki no matter how it's used.

I don’t see those iterations exactly as a depict of Goku regaining his ordinary level of stamina, but rather accessing hidden energy reserves that he would otherwise never use, aka “runner’s high”.

In his first Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct experiences, it's like emptying a gas tank and using the reserve tank, but instead burning it in a much faster rate.

When Goku is fighting the Saiyan girls he is basically making his body get accostumed to transit between his ordinary and extra levels of stamina without much hindrance, which further makes him able to access higher levels of Ultra Instinct performance the more he gets better at controlling his ki, though he still had a long way ahead (occasionally he uses more energy than he is allowed to, like in his SS3 transformation).

I don't agree, I think they just forgot that Goku and the others could still get tired out and not have anything left in the tank. The ONLY possible explanation is that they kept the recovery ability that Super Saiyan God seemed to give them, a healing factor and faster stamina and ki recovery which Goku showed vs Beerus, but of course Beerus beat the dog shit out of him at the end so it didn't matter.

But taking that out of the equation, it just makes zero sense that in less than 48 minutes he can hit near zero multiple times and repeatedly while being active and fighting get even higher than when he was not near zero. The anime ToP just didn't handle that very well was all, while the manga handled that better.

[Hugo Boss]

I think this is a well known notion among people who practice high-intensity level sports. We reach our limits during training sessions multiple times until our bodies start adapting to it.

That’s what I think is happening with Goku here. He's giving his body a little bit of recovery time, but just enough to get back into the swing of things and not let himself get to the point where the exhaustion is what takes over.

From an in-universe standpoint, it's all happening a lot faster. Though you could argue the pacing doesn’t make the most sense, we are talking about super strong aliens, right?

[QuakingStar]

I think this is a well known notion among people who practice high-intensity level sports. We reach our limits during training sessions multiple times until our bodies start adapting to it.

That’s what I think is happening with Goku here. He's giving his body a little bit of recovery time, but just enough to get back into the swing of things and not let himself get to the point where the exhaustion is what takes over.

From an in-universe standpoint, it's all happening a lot faster. Though you could argue the pacing doesn’t make the most sense, we are talking about super strong aliens, right?

He literally collapses a few times so he did reach the point where exhaustion takes over. You can't try to explain this away, it's just bad writing.

[Hugo Boss]

I think this is a well known notion among people who practice high-intensity level sports. We reach our limits during training sessions multiple times until our bodies start adapting to it.

That’s what I think is happening with Goku here. He's giving his body a little bit of recovery time, but just enough to get back into the swing of things and not let himself get to the point where the exhaustion is what takes over.

From an in-universe standpoint, it's all happening a lot faster. Though you could argue the pacing doesn’t make the most sense, we are talking about super strong aliens, right?

He literally collapses a few times so he did reach the point where exhaustion takes over. You can't try to explain this away, it's just bad writing.

I’m not trying to explain anything, my dude. Just presenting my own take of the situation (I don’t see this particular stamina handling as bad writing) and you are free to think differently, as this is totally subjective matter.

[Goku9001]

He's not trying to impose anything. That said, Hugo Boss would have to be correct in the fact that Goku was tapping into some higher power. His stamina had reached its breaking point by the end of his battle with Kefla. Yet it was confirmed that his 2nd appearance of UI Omen was stronger than its debut when he harnessed that power again.

I think the comparison to what an athlete experiences is an interesting one and entirely possible. It's a common practice to cool down over intervals to preserve your energy for higher-intensity intervals. Things are just accelerated because Goku's essentially a superhuman with god power.

[Yuji]

Where are we placing base Piccolo? The anime seemed to imply he was somewhat between SS2 and SS3 but he seems to do worse against Gamma 2 than SS Gohan did against Gamma 1.

[ZombieVito]

Where are we placing base Piccolo? The anime seemed to imply he was somewhat between SS2 and SS3 but he seems to do worse against Gamma 2 than SS Gohan did against Gamma 1.

He was stronger than Boo arc SS2 tier and then after training with Ultimate Gohan, he reached the current base tier. I suppose he can be closing in to the SS tier by Super Hero.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Definitely think he's on-par with base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan/Cabba/Caulifla overall in terms of raw power.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Piccolo is stronger than a rusty SSJ2 Gohan, probably no stronger than the one from the Boo Saga. After they train Gohan leaves him in the dust.

I think Piccolo fits somewhere between current Base and SSJ1. 18 seems to be stronger than Base, and I doubt she's weaker than Piccolo. A producer of the show has said Frost > Piccolo too.

[Skar]

The Manga did it better, the anime messed up in terms of ki/stamina. Toei screwed things up, because Goku doing what he did in the ToP anime is gargage. In the Saiyan Saga and again in the Frieza Saga he was done right before the Spirit Bomb hence needing to use the Spirit Bomb and his only way to get stronger and regain his ki/stamina was when he attains Super Saiyan and it seemingly brings him back to 100% Ki/Stamina, which his first time getting UI seemingly did for him in the Manga and Anime so that nakes sense while the rest of it does not, especially when Kaioken still drains stamina and ki no matter how it's used.

I could be wrong but I think Toei was using a more common shonen trope that determination and willpower helps you recover or something like that. I don't remember that happening in the original manga unless we count Goku using SSJ for the first time. After the Kamehameha against Vegeta, all Goku could do was dodge Oozaru and likely would've been dead if the other Z fighters didn't come to help. After giving up against Cell, Goku could barely fight a Cell Jr. In the Buu saga, he couldn't recover his energy in SSJ3 and needed Porunga to restore his power to push the Spirit Bomb.

Where are we placing base Piccolo? The anime seemed to imply he was somewhat between SS2 and SS3 but he seems to do worse against Gamma 2 than SS Gohan did against Gamma 1.

I'm not sure about the anime and manga but he seems to still be weaker than SSJ Gohan in the movie continuity. He was weaker than a rusty SSJ Gohan in RoF and still weaker than a not as rusty but probably not at full power SSJ Gohan in SH. I think it's unclear how strong Toriyama intended for Piccolo to be between the movies and before his powerups.