"Dragon Ball Kai" Continuity?

[DaSuperBaby]

Dragon Ball Kai is just a remastered and condensed version of the original 1989–1995 Dragon Ball Z TV series, but should it be considered as having produced its own continuity where most of the "filler" events didn't happen, or should it be considered the same continuity as the original DBZ, but it's equivalent to watching the original DBZ and simply choosing to skip the anime-only material?

[VegettoEX]

This is not meant to be dismissive of your question, but to be a genuine, good-faith answer: I don't think it's worth having that conversation on a deeper level.

I constantly see things like "Super is in the Kai continuity and GT is in the Z continuity"... but none of that actually makes sense when you examine it even one step further. Kai was its own mess of production, some of it being no fault of anything or anyone other than attempting to edit something that already exists and dealing with the ramifications of its realities in that sense. Filler's still in there, inconsistencies are still in there, things from later stories can't be reconciled with it, etc. etc. etc. It just doesn't work.

I think the best way to "explain" it is to never go beyond the "real world", out-of-universe explanation: it's a re-edit of the older show, with both all of the problems and benefits that come with that. It's a "faster" way to "watch" the show, and that's that.

(I also think it's a worse way to watch the show, presuming you're watching it in Japanese.)

[DaSuperBaby]

So it's like the Dragon Ball GT Anime Comic where it's just another way of viewing the series, and it doesn't produce a new continuity because it's just screen grabs from the show with speech bubbles. Kai is a re-edit of the original series; it's not a separate continuity from that.

But, overall, what you're saying is that Kai should be sort of a non-entity in the larger continuity and canonicity discussions because it's a special case.

[VegettoEX]

I didn't even think about the GT Anime Comic, but you're right in that it's a perfect parallel. It's literally the exact same underlying material, just presented in a different way (and in this case, in a different medium).

I absolutely do think that Kai is "a non-entity in the larger continuity and canonicity discussions". That's a great way to put it. It just "is" -- it doesn't have to be some weird extra variable in a ridiculous calculus worksheet, ya' know?

[TheGreatness25]

I agree. I never understood why some people wanted to lump GT with the original series and say that Super was going off of Kai. Kai was following the same story as Z, so all of this compartmentalizing seemed odd to be. Z and Kai are the same story, based on the same source material.

[Bloodthroe]

Personally, I think old Z is dead in the eyes of Toei. It has been replaced by Kai. I seriously doubt Toei will ever re-release old Z in bluray format. It would be a waste of resources if they think Kai is the proper viewing release.

Furthermore, I lump GT in with the movie continuity, since movie characters appear in its hell. The only caveat is the Garlic jr. Saga of old Z.

[GhostEmperorX]

I seriously doubt Toei will ever re-release old Z in bluray format.

They don't release anything produced with 16mm film in Blu-ray format though. And that's a lot of series besides just Z.
Which is one of the main problems with this studio that's almost nonexistent elsewhere.

[funrush]

I don't think it creates a "new canon" unless you want it to. I personally choose to view DB's canon as whatever Toriyama was most involved in, so mine goes:

DB manga (all of DB and Z) -> Battle of Gods movie -> Resurrection F movie -> Super anime starting at U6 tournament -> Broly movie -> Moro and Granolah arcs of Super manga -> Super Hero movie

But really you can pick whatever you want.

[Vegetto95]

I don't think it creates a "new canon" unless you want it to. I personally choose to view DB's canon as whatever Toriyama was most involved in, so mine goes:

DB manga (all of DB and Z) -> Battle of Gods movie -> Resurrection F movie -> Super anime starting at U6 tournament -> Broly movie -> Moro and Granolah arcs of Super manga -> Super Hero movie

But even then, Toriyama was barely involved in the Super anime and the Moro and Granolah manga arcs whatsoever. In fact, from what I recall, he didn't even write his notes-on-a-napkin story outline for the Granolah arc and instead basically just left 99% of the story for Toyotarô to make up, and really did little more than approve what Toyo wrote and tweaked a few character designs. So if that's the criterion you're gonna use, you might as well consider things like GT and Online and a few bits of the Z filler and movies as "canon", because he honestly had about the same, if not slightly MORE, involvement in all of those as he did the latter arcs of the Super manga lol

[funrush]

I don't think it creates a "new canon" unless you want it to. I personally choose to view DB's canon as whatever Toriyama was most involved in, so mine goes:

DB manga (all of DB and Z) -> Battle of Gods movie -> Resurrection F movie -> Super anime starting at U6 tournament -> Broly movie -> Moro and Granolah arcs of Super manga -> Super Hero movie

But even then, Toriyama was barely involved in the Super anime and the Moro and Granolah manga arcs whatsoever. In fact, from what I recall, he didn't even write his notes-on-a-napkin story outline for the Granolah arc and instead basically just left 99% of the story for Toyotarô to make up, and really did little more than approve what Toyo wrote and tweaked a few character designs. So if that's the criterion you're gonna use, you might as well consider things like GT and Online and a few bits of the Z filler and movies as "canon", because he honestly had about the same, if not slightly MORE, involvement in all of those as he did the latter arcs of the Super manga lol

Yeah but Super and GT aren't really compatible imo and I like Super more so I'm picking that as the canon one.

[Vegetto95]

Yeah but Super and GT aren't really compatible imo and I like Super more so I'm picking that as the canon one.

Super and GT are both separately compatible with DB and Z/Kai. And quite a bit of filler in DB and Z/Kai isn't compatible with the rest of the story, and the movies especially we all know are wholly incompatible with the rest. Then you've got the several versions each of Super (including but not limited to the THREE different versions of God and God/Battle of Gods between the movie, manga, and TV anime as an example of how ridiculous that shit gets lol), none of which are compatible with the others, and yet all of which had some level of involvement by Toriyama himself.

That's the thing about the whole "Whatever Toriyama was involved in automatically means it's canon" argument that I've seen literally dozens of people spout... it falls completely apart as soon as you actually think about it for more than a few seconds. So really, it's not so much "What was Toriyama involved in?" as it is "What's my personal headcanon preference as a singular Dragon Ball fan?" Hell, you even said as much yourself since you picked Super over GT for the sole reason that you personally like it more! And there's nothing wrong with that in and of itself, it's just when said fans try to argue that whatever their view of "canon" is is the absolute truth that ruffles me a bit (not referring to you, you made it clear that what you said is just the way you see it, but I have seen others try to present their personal views on "cAnOn" as definitive, which is just... HILARIOUSLY conceited).

I just personally never understood the absolute OBSESSION with "canon" vs. "non-canon" amongst the DB fandom to begin with (an obsession that's ESPECIALLY prevalent on the American side of things, or so has been my experience). Like... who cares? WHY is it so important to define that SO strictly when there's DOOOOZENS of conflicting installments in the ridiculously large Dragon Ball franchise? The way I look at it is simply "There's the original manga, and EVERYTHING else spins off of that in some way, shape, or form, whether sequel, adaptation, spinoff, what have you". Simple as that. There are DOZENS of different continuities across multiple different forms of media in the DB franchise, and no matter what, trying to narrow all that down to "canon" and "non-canon" will accomplish absolutely nothing except put only one of those dozens on a meaningless pedestal, and leave all others lying sad on the ground. Why? What's so great about that?

[GurixDr34]

In my Headcanon Dragon Ball Kai happens in the Super Anime Timeline and the Original Dragon Ball Z Anime with all its filler and arcs as Garlic Jr happens in the GT Timeline

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

In my Headcanon Dragon Ball Kai happens in the Super Anime Timeline and the Original Dragon Ball Z Anime with all its filler and arcs as Garlic Jr happens in the GT Timeline

The problem with that is that Kai and Super weren't written to be consistent with one another and have just as many contradictions as Z and Super have.

The Hell shown in Kai is not the same as the Hell shown in Super (no flower fields, cuddly animals or mecha Freeza bring wrapped up in a cocoon) for example.

[90sDBZ]

I think there is a bit of nuance to this.

There's the obvious contradictions like Hell being different, and Kai including EoZ which also doesn't fit with Super.

On the other hand both Buu Kai and Super use the Sumitomo score, with several of the same tracks being used. Super also aired in Japan immediately after Kai ended, which was also the case with GT after Z.

And on the dub side of things there's more to consider. Funimation's Super dub retains most of the Kai recasts, and even uses Kai's dialogue over Z's for flashbacks.

I know this stuff doesn't really refer to "canon or non-canon", but it does explain why people tend to pair Kai with Super.

[MasenkoHA]

I think there is a bit of nuance to this.

There's the obvious contradictions like Hell being different, and Kai including EoZ which also doesn't fit with Super.

On the other hand both Buu Kai and Super use the Sumitomo score, with several of the same tracks being used. Super also aired in Japan immediately after Kai ended, which was also the case with GT after Z.

And on the dub side of things there's more to consider. Funimation's Super dub retains most of the Kai recasts, and even uses Kai's dialogue over Z's for flashbacks.

I know this stuff doesn't really refer to "canon or non-canon", but it does explain why people tend to pair Kai with Super.

I think the focus on the dub is why fans think Super is a sequel to Kai and not Z.

As far as the Funimation dub is concerned Kai might as well be a completely different show from Z that Super is following up on. Frieza alone is an entirely different character (read more accurate to the Japanese version) that going from Z's dub to Super's dub would give whiplash.

But as far as the Japanese version goes, Kai is just truncated Z with new music for the Buu saga and some censorship so there's no real reason to see Super as a sequel to Kai but not Z